[DEFEATED/DISCARDED] The Cloning Conventions

[The New Nordic Union]

'I cited it right there. No-one may own a person.'

"That is if you consider clones to be actual persons, which they're not since they're artificial entities. Once again, we are talking about state-produced entities that become state-owned after production."

'If they are sapient, they are persons.'

[Merther]

"That is if you consider clones to be actual persons, which they're not since they're artificial entities. Once again, we are talking about state-produced entities that become state-owned after production."

'If they are sapient, they are persons.'

"The definition of sapient states that a being is sapient if possesses a certain sense of judgment. Which is something that the state would completely alter during the production process of clones in order to produce non-sapient entities. Once again, we plan on producing artificial entities, not complete copies of human subjects. If they don't conform to the definition of sapient, they are not persons, won't be considered persons, and as a consequence, national laws will be enforced. Yet these entities, would still be clones. The only way to solve this issue is to let state-owned clones be under complete control of the state, which would make everybody happy."

[The New Nordic Union]

'If they are sapient, they are persons.'

"The definition of sapient states that a being is sapient if possesses a certain sense of judgment. Which is something that the state would completely alter during the production process of clones in order to produce non-sapient entities. Once again, we plan on producing artificial entities, not complete copies of human subjects. If they don't conform to the definition of sapient, they are not persons, won't be considered persons, and as a consequence, national laws will be enforced. Yet these entities, would still be clones. The only way to solve this issue is to let state-owned clones be under complete control of the state, which would make everybody happy."

'If you produce non-sapient clones from sapient originators, we can see from where your opposition is coming now. (Even though we cannot imagine how a non-sapient clone without a sense of judgement would be a good guard for a administration centre, but that is a different topic.)'

[Merther]

"The definition of sapient states that a being is sapient if possesses a certain sense of judgment. Which is something that the state would completely alter during the production process of clones in order to produce non-sapient entities. Once again, we plan on producing artificial entities, not complete copies of human subjects. If they don't conform to the definition of sapient, they are not persons, won't be considered persons, and as a consequence, national laws will be enforced. Yet these entities, would still be clones. The only way to solve this issue is to let state-owned clones be under complete control of the state, which would make everybody happy."

'If you produce non-sapient clones from sapient originators, we can see from where your opposition is coming now. (Even though we cannot imagine how a non-sapient clone without a sense of judgement would be a good guard for a administration centre, but that is a different topic.)'

"We have the technological abilities to produce such non-sapient clones and still make good guards out of them, have no worries about it. We simply wish to be able to do whatever we like with our non-sapient entities (Since we already use them, and just setting these entities free considering how much their "thought process" - if it can be called this way - has been reduced and / or altered during production, would be a terrible idea if we do not have the right to destroy them.)

[Hatzisland]

As a regional delegate myself, I am proud regions are standing up to this plan and rejecting it. If my math is correct, nothing short of a disaster could give this plan adequate approvals to pass. We hope to see the status of this plan moved to [Defeated] very soon.

[Falcania]

As a regional delegate myself, I am proud regions are standing up to this plan and rejecting it.

"Region" is perhaps slightly grandiose terminology seeing as there's two nations there.

[Kenmoria]

As a regional delegate myself, I am proud regions are standing up to this plan and rejecting it. If my math is correct, nothing short of a disaster could give this plan adequate approvals to pass. We hope to see the status of this plan moved to [Defeated] very soon.

(OOC: I wouldn’t be so sure, there are proposals that have garnered more approvals in less time. I for one am not discounting the possibility of this reaching quorum then passing. The only issue would be people remembering science fiction, as I suspect you have done, and voting against based on evil clones taking over.)

[Hatzisland]

As a regional delegate myself, I am proud regions are standing up to this plan and rejecting it. If my math is correct, nothing short of a disaster could give this plan adequate approvals to pass. We hope to see the status of this plan moved to [Defeated] very soon.

(OOC: I wouldn’t be so sure, there are proposals that have garnered more approvals in less time. I for one am not discounting the possibility of this reaching quorum then passing. The only issue would be people remembering science fiction, as I suspect you have done, and voting against based on evil clones taking over.)

OOC: Well, it appears as if you are correct. A disaster struck, and the proposal is on the verge of reaching 81. I don't see this passing the WA though. This a WAY too radical to succeed.

[Araraukar]

Unfortunately, as shown by the above argument, many do not necessarily definitively categorize clones as actual living beings.

OOC: People will RP the way they want to RP and no WA resolution can do anything about it. Just because someone is godmodding noncompliance, doesn't mean many of your clauses weren't duplication of existing resolutions.

I suggest that you concede the argument

Nah, the GenSec has change its mind before, when someone points out issues with it. If your proposal reaches quorum, I'll write up a proper Legality Challenge. If it doesn't, howabout you simply remove the duplication bits? I mean, it can be made into a perfectly good resolution on cloning practices, you can just leave out what happens to sapient clones after the cloning.

[Kurdzamba]

I believe it is against morality to allow legal clones. Clones are human experiment.

[Araraukar]

OOC: ... If your proposal reaches quorum, I'll write up a proper Legality Challenge.

OOC: As promised.

[BlackLight Covenant]

I believe it is against morality to allow legal clones. Clones are human experiment.

Unless I am understanding this incorrectly, I'm pretty certain this legislation doesn't rule on whether cloning is allowed or not, instead aiming to protect the rights of sapient clones and to ensure cloning is done by qualified personnel. Yes, it does permit nations to clone people, but 1) it doesn't force nations to do as such, and 2) cloning is allowed regardless of whether this proposal will become law or not. Arguing that cloning is against morality doesn't really work well as a counter to this proposal imo.

[Kenmoria]

I believe it is against morality to allow legal clones. Clones are human experiment.

(OOC: The proposal doesn’t address the legality of cloning itself, merely the conditions of clones produced from that process. It would be perfectly legal for a future resolution to ban cloning, although I recommend against that, in the future.)

[Marxist Germany]

As a regional delegate myself, I am proud regions are standing up to this plan and rejecting it. If my math is correct, nothing short of a disaster could give this plan adequate approvals to pass. We hope to see the status of this plan moved to [Defeated] very soon.

"I believe this disaster has happened, Mr Ambassador"

[BlackLight Covenant]

(OOC: I wouldn’t be so sure, there are proposals that have garnered more approvals in less time. I for one am not discounting the possibility of this reaching quorum then passing. The only issue would be people remembering science fiction, as I suspect you have done, and voting against based on evil clones taking over.)

OOC: Well, it appears as if you are correct. A disaster struck, and the proposal is on the verge of reaching 81. I don't see this passing the WA though. This a WAY too radical to succeed.

Out of curiosity, what exactly is your issue with this proposal? The possible legality issue (which, mind you, I haven't really looked into yet), or something else?

[Hatzisland]

OOC: Well, it appears as if you are correct. A disaster struck, and the proposal is on the verge of reaching 81. I don't see this passing the WA though. This a WAY too radical to succeed.

Out of curiosity, what exactly is your issue with this proposal? The possible legality issue (which, mind you, I haven't really looked into yet), or something else?

This proposal, which is now in quorum, allows any citizen to create of clone of anybody. The amount of jobs(millions in most nations, though it could be even more) that would be lost with this proposal is terrifying. On top of that, these machines will be granted the same rights as humans, making the moral, ethical, and economic crisis even worse! I really don't see how anyone can support this proposal. I have seen the author, in both this thread and in campaign telegrams, misbrand this is regulation on clones, when it is far from it. I remain strongly opposed, and there really isn't anything aside from massive edits that will change my mind.

OOC: I may even have to change my signature to say "dedicated to repealing GAR #460."

[Alicorn Princess Twilight Sparkle]

“I am Ambassador Twilight Sparkle and I am here to explain the Republic of Akila's opposition to this proposal.

In a pink flash, a small lavender mammal appears in front of Ambassador Twilight Sparkle and interrupts.

"I'm Ambassador Twilight Sparkle and I am here to explain Equestria's opposition to this proposal," the winged unicorn explains, "starting with, of course, the question on everypony's mind, and that is the necessity of this particular proposal.

"Typically international laws are of matters international, and not matters both biological and merely national. Cloning typically only affects the nation doing the cloning, you see, and thus international regulation is not typically necessary. Now, of course, there is a problem with cloning the citizens of other nations, but that doesn't appear to be your focal point. I argue that this proposal simply doesn't serve any real purpose other than to add to the body of legislation.

"Additionally, the proposal here requires, and I quote, that cloning:

only be done by qualified biomedical personnel, or qualified veterinary personnel in collaboration with qualified biomedical personnel, and qualified laboratory technicians who are appointed and under the responsibility of qualified biomedical/veterinary personnel;

"Now, what in Equestria would a veterinarian know about conjuration magic??" Twilight rolls her eyes. "You'd be putting cloning into the hooves of ponies totally ill equipped to actually perform the cloning incantations. Meanwhile, well qualified mages, such as myself, would be unable to perform any cloning. I'm sure this was just a mistake on your part, though, moving on:

Restricts the cloning of sapient organisms only to originators who fully consent to being cloned

"These requirements would make it impossible to bring back extinct species. As tests for sapience obviously cannot be done on species that are no longer living, any researchers attempting to revive a species for scientific research would not be able to do so lest they accidentally clone a sapient organism. This would be a huge hindrance to paleontologists everywhere."

Have a Harmonious day.”

"Ooh, you too."

Twilight whispers, "I'm gonna steal that one."

[The New Nordic Union]

On top of that, these machines will be granted the same rights as humans, making the moral, ethical, and economic crisis even worse!

OOC: Clones are not machines.

[Hatzisland]

On top of that, these machines will be granted the same rights as humans, making the moral, ethical, and economic crisis even worse!

OOC: Clones are not machines.

OOC: That's really debatable. Aren't they made by scientists for the sake of not having to use(and pay) human workers?

[The New Nordic Union]

OOC: Clones are not machines.

OOC: That's really debatable. Aren't they made by scientists for the sake of not having to use(and pay) human workers?

OOC: Not necessarily, no. Also, if cloned from humans, they are human, too. That's how cloning works.

[BlackLight Covenant]

Out of curiosity, what exactly is your issue with this proposal? The possible legality issue (which, mind you, I haven't really looked into yet), or something else?

This proposal, which is now in quorum, allows any citizen to create of clone of anybody. The amount of jobs(millions in most nations, though it could be even more) that would be lost with this proposal is terrifying. On top of that, these machines will be granted the same rights as humans, making the moral, ethical, and economic crisis even worse! I really don't see how anyone can support this proposal. I have seen the author, in both this thread and in campaign telegrams, misbrand this is regulation on clones, when it is far from it. I remain strongly opposed, and there really isn't anything aside from massive edits that will change my mind.

OOC: I may even have to change my signature to say "dedicated to repealing GAR #460."

Ah, I see, thanks for clarifying. One thing I will point out, though, is that cloning is already allowed regardless of this proposal. And yes, the latter essentially reaffirms nations' right to clone people and other organisms/allow such a thing to be done within their borders, but it doesn't force nations to actually allow cloning for as far as I can see. It mostly just puts up regulations on cloning itself in the fields of clone rights and procedures surrounding the cloning itself. I do suppose this could serve as an obstacle for possible future restrictions on cloning, however, which I can definitely see being an issue from your point of view.

[Sapient Grass Clones]

Thank God for this resolution. Upon its passage, species like ours shall no longer be prey to mad scientists cloning sapient grass species for their own ends.

[Excidium Planetis]

Thank God for this resolution. Upon its passage, species like ours shall no longer be prey to mad scientists cloning sapient grass species for their own ends.

OOC
This joke has not been funny since the WA was created.

[Kranostav]

Question...
Does clause 4, subclause 1 ban the cloning of embryos and other prenatal sapient beings?

[Caspian Settlement]

Question...
Does clause 4, subclause 1 ban the cloning of embryos and other prenatal sapient beings?

“In a lot of cases to do with consent, a child is seen as unable to consent due to mental underdevelopment and immaturity. However, cloning could be vital if the child is suffering from some form of disease that would quickly lead to death. I suggest perhaps allowing parental consent if the originator is underaged.”

OOC: Actually PRA (explicitly allows parents to make medical decisions for their children) and the legal competence resolutions would cover the unable-to-give-consent people.