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[reDraft] Regulation of Cryptocurrencies

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Masurbia
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Postby Masurbia » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:33 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Masurbia wrote:
And when you say privacy concerns, cryptocurrencies are a breakthrough for privacy. According to Forbes, Privacy coins like Monero and ZCash make so your transactions are untraceable.


"Why would any government want transactions to be untraceable? That makes it impossible to regulate."


Exactly, it keeps the government out of the market
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Imperium Anglorum
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:34 am

Masurbia wrote:Exactly, it keeps the government out of the market

What if terrorists use it to buy guns and ammunition?

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Imperial Polk County
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Postby Imperial Polk County » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:46 am

Masurbia wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:
"Why would any government want transactions to be untraceable? That makes it impossible to regulate."

Exactly, it keeps the government out of the market

"Let me get this straight. You want private entities to be able to create fake currency that can be used to buy real things via untraceable transactions, and have the whole thing unregulated by the government? Are you really so blind that you can't see the potential for abuse here? Not only are you giving an avenue to organized crime to obtain illegal weapons and drugs via untraceable transactions, what happens when one of these companies goes bankrupt? What's their fake currency worth then? And what happens to all the people who own this fake currency? It's not like their deposits can be insured by the federal government the way they can be with bank accounts, if the government isn't allowed to regulate or take part in it. I'm sorry, but this idea like trying to feed a cheeseburger to a wild gator, and I won't be surprised when it bites your arm off. Definitely opposed to this whole idea."
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Masurbia
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Postby Masurbia » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:46 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Masurbia wrote:
And when you say privacy concerns, cryptocurrencies are a breakthrough for privacy. According to Forbes, Privacy coins like Monero and ZCash make so your transactions are untraceable.


"Why would any government want transactions to be untraceable? That makes it impossible to regulate."

Exactly. Free Market
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Attempted Socialism
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Postby Attempted Socialism » Wed Jan 10, 2018 6:52 am

Masurbia wrote:
Attempted Socialism wrote:OOC: Then they are not currencies. As they aren't IRL either, so I guess that'll be the same.
Crypto"currencies" don't create jobs either.
And everything else in your draft is also terrible. Crypto"currencies" fail even as a futures market, so why should we recognise them as something they're even worse at being?

If you look up "jobs in Cryptocurrency" a number of results will pop up.
OOC: These aren't jobs created by crypto"currencies" anymore than Windows created jobs for telephone scammers. The opportunity to scam people or invest in a known, ready-to-burt bubble isn't a job that is new to crypto"currencies", it's a tradition that goes back to even the Roman Classical Period.
Your claim is that crypto"currencies" make numerous jobs. So far, all I see are scammers exploiting the most recent bubble.
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:31 am

Masurbia wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:
"Why would any government want transactions to be untraceable? That makes it impossible to regulate."


Exactly, it keeps the government out of the market

"Congratulations, you just made it incredibly easy for criminals to engage in terrorism, illegal arms sales, drug trafficking, human trafficking, fraud, racketeering, tax evasion, and basically anything else that otherwise involves money laundering. Do you just hate the idea of a stable society, or are you trying to bring down the entirety of civilized society?" Bell rolls his eyes in contempt.

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Stoskavanya
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Postby Stoskavanya » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:41 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:"Congratulations, you just made it incredibly easy for criminals to engage in terrorism, illegal arms sales, drug trafficking, human trafficking, fraud, racketeering, tax evasion, and basically anything else that otherwise involves money laundering. Do you just hate the idea of a stable society, or are you trying to bring down the entirety of civilized society?" Bell rolls his eyes in contempt.

The government should keep out of a criminal's business!

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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:57 am

Stoskavanya wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:"Congratulations, you just made it incredibly easy for criminals to engage in terrorism, illegal arms sales, drug trafficking, human trafficking, fraud, racketeering, tax evasion, and basically anything else that otherwise involves money laundering. Do you just hate the idea of a stable society, or are you trying to bring down the entirety of civilized society?" Bell rolls his eyes in contempt.

The government should keep out of a criminal's business!

"Right, because corporate fraud, malfeasance, bad faith by directors, bad faith by controlling shareholders, breach of fiduciary duty, and literally any action that would require a writ of quo warranto is just so good for business in a compulsory consumerist state, right? You know, a state that requires, by necessity, a functional capitalist society definitely could survive ignoring crimes that undermine the ability for consumers to, y'know, consume? Being unable to determine if any of those violations actually occurred doesn't hinge at all on, say, following the money.

"Seriously, am I the only one here who actually understands the ramifications of not being able to verify transactions?"

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Kenmoria
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Postby Kenmoria » Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:05 am

Masurbia wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:
"Why would any government want transactions to be untraceable? That makes it impossible to regulate."

Exactly. Free Market

"Whilst we support free market very strongly, Kenmoria does place some restrictions, which would be impossible with a cryptocurrency you describe. For that reason, we are against."
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Postby Grays Harbor » Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:09 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Stoskavanya wrote:The government should keep out of a criminal's business!

"Right, because corporate fraud, malfeasance, bad faith by directors, bad faith by controlling shareholders, breach of fiduciary duty, and literally any action that would require a writ of quo warranto is just so good for business in a compulsory consumerist state, right? You know, a state that requires, by necessity, a functional capitalist society definitely could survive ignoring crimes that undermine the ability for consumers to, y'know, consume? Being unable to determine if any of those violations actually occurred doesn't hinge at all on, say, following the money.

"Seriously, am I the only one here who actually understands the ramifications of not being able to verify transactions?"

No, you are not alone. I have refrained from comments mostly because I agree with you on this, and I did not feel the need to repeat what you have said most eloquently already, or just standing up to say "ditto".

And, as badly as this thing is worded people who run and play MMORPG's could near legitimately claim their in-game currencies are now legal tender as well.

Knowing that virtual money is extremely popular and has created numerous amounts of jobs.

Wishful thinking unsupported by anything close to a fact.

Recognizing that the trading of cryptocurrencies is very lucrative but still risky.

Pointless fluff

Knowing that cryptocurrencies can greatly contribute to a nations economy.
More supposition unsupported by fact.
Last edited by Grays Harbor on Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Masurbia
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Postby Masurbia » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:46 pm

Kenmoria wrote:
Masurbia wrote:Exactly. Free Market

"Whilst we support free market very strongly, Kenmoria does place some restrictions, which would be impossible with a cryptocurrency you describe. For that reason, we are against."

This is a quote from Forbes, "Regardless of the level of technical anonymity in the cybercurrency itself, one fact gives law enforcement a break: criminals must eventually exchange their cryptocoin of choice for fiat currency (aka ‘real money’) at some point.....In fact, one of the more innovative approaches to monitoring cybercurrency transactions potentially uses blockchain itself. “Blockchain technology, by its very nature, lends itself to integrated decentralized monitoring efforts of financial transactions,” explains Floyd DCosta, Management Consultant and Cofounder at Blockchain Worx. “A Blockchain-based platform will give regulators, auditors, and other stakeholders an effective and powerful set of tools to monitor complex transactions and immutably record the audit trail of suspicious transactions across the system.”

Such an approach is not without its hurdles, as multiple banks would all have to participate. “Each financial institution which would be part of this system would serve as a node within the private permissioned blockchain network,” DCosta continues. “Since relevant information would be stored in the blockchain and be made available to each node, suspicious activity can be detected and highlighted to all related participants.”

Law enforcement can still use other tactics to locate illegal activity.
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Masurbia
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Postby Masurbia » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:51 pm

Attempted Socialism wrote:
Masurbia wrote:If you look up "jobs in Cryptocurrency" a number of results will pop up.
OOC: These aren't jobs created by crypto"currencies" anymore than Windows created jobs for telephone scammers. The opportunity to scam people or invest in a known, ready-to-burt bubble isn't a job that is new to crypto"currencies", it's a tradition that goes back to even the Roman Classical Period.
Your claim is that crypto"currencies" make numerous jobs. So far, all I see are scammers exploiting the most recent bubble.


This is quote from when I searched 'jobs in cryptocurrency' and I clicked on the very first result (Given that the results were based on location), "This position is responsible for being the primary subject matter expert on cryptocurrencies and blockchain-oriented products and investment strategies."

This job wouldn't have existed without cryptocurrency. It's like there would be no jobs or experts in cars or telephones if they were never invented.
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Masurbia
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Postby Masurbia » Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:57 pm

Tinfect wrote:
Masurbia wrote:If you look up "jobs in Cryptocurrency" a number of results will pop up.


OOC:
Doesn't mean it isn't a meaningless financial bubble. Cryptocurrencies are utterly useless as currency, not only in concept, but in practice. They are simply not viable as currency.


This is a quote from Michael Graziano, founder of Global Degree, from Forbes article Millennials, Here's How Cryptocurrency Could Transform Your Future, "Big players like eBay, Microsoft, Expedia, McDonald’s and Subway are all starting to accept Bitcoin and other digital currencies. The Swiss government is accepting Bitcoin for tax payments. Dubai has announced that they want to become the world’s first ‘blockchain city.’ These are major statements from major economies… all of this is happening so fast and I expect these changes to really amplify in 2018."
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Masurbia
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Postby Masurbia » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:11 pm

Put all of our disagreements aside, this is my first time writing one of these, so what could I change in my proposal to make it better?
(I am currently working on a definition of "cryptocurrencies")
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:20 pm

Masurbia wrote:Put all of our disagreements aside, this is my first time writing one of these, so what could I change in my proposal to make it better?
(I am currently working on a definition of "cryptocurrencies")

OOC: douse it in metaphorical kerosene and touch it to a lit match?

What's the problem with lawyer jokes?
Lawyer's don't think they're funny, and no one else thinks they're jokes.

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Masurbia
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Postby Masurbia » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:27 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Masurbia wrote:Put all of our disagreements aside, this is my first time writing one of these, so what could I change in my proposal to make it better?
(I am currently working on a definition of "cryptocurrencies")

OOC: douse it in metaphorical kerosene and touch it to a lit match?

Anyone have anything that could actually help me. (But I get the joke :lol2: )
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:36 pm

Masurbia wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:OOC: douse it in metaphorical kerosene and touch it to a lit match?

Anyone have anything that could actually help me. (But I get the joke :lol2: )

OOC: That will help you. This is clearly a non-starter. You shouldn't pursue it.

What you should do is stick to debating existing proposals, because drafting is the sort of thing that takes a experience to do well, and you'll have an easier time of it if you start in other people's threads rather than trying to dive into your own. The learning curve is more forgiving. In fact, there is a really strong turnover rate among players who do not start in existing threads, and a much lower such rate with those who take the time to learn from more experienced players and avoid drafting right up front.
Last edited by Separatist Peoples on Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Masurbia
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Postby Masurbia » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:21 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Masurbia wrote:Anyone have anything that could actually help me. (But I get the joke :lol2: )

OOC: That will help you. This is clearly a non-starter. You shouldn't pursue it.

What you should do is stick to debating existing proposals, because drafting is the sort of thing that takes a experience to do well, and you'll have an easier time of it if you start in other people's threads rather than trying to dive into your own. The learning curve is more forgiving. In fact, there is a really strong turnover rate among players who do not start in existing threads, and a much lower such rate with those who take the time to learn from more experienced players and avoid drafting right up front.

Okay I can see that. Just out of curiosity, what is so wrong with it that makes it a non-starter? Besides my horrible writing
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Tinfect
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Postby Tinfect » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:28 pm

Masurbia wrote:Okay I can see that. Just out of curiosity, what is so wrong with it that makes it a non-starter? Besides my horrible writing


See:
Tinfect wrote:[...]
Cryptocurrencies are not viable as currency, not viable as assets, not as secure as physical currencies, more expensive than physical currencies, and easily used for scamming people. Mandating that Member-States recognize them as currencies alongside their National currencies would be disastrous not only for the nature of the thing, but for the variety of issues that maintaining a multi-currency system in the first place entails. And this is all ignoring the serious privacy concerns and massive criminal element already involved in the cryptocurrency nonsense in real life.
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Masurbia
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Postby Masurbia » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:34 pm

Tinfect wrote:
Masurbia wrote:Okay I can see that. Just out of curiosity, what is so wrong with it that makes it a non-starter? Besides my horrible writing


See:
Tinfect wrote:[...]
Cryptocurrencies are not viable as currency, not viable as assets, not as secure as physical currencies, more expensive than physical currencies, and easily used for scamming people. Mandating that Member-States recognize them as currencies alongside their National currencies would be disastrous not only for the nature of the thing, but for the variety of issues that maintaining a multi-currency system in the first place entails. And this is all ignoring the serious privacy concerns and massive criminal element already involved in the cryptocurrency nonsense in real life.

Okay I addressed the privacy concern and the criminal element. I did say that companies like eBay, Microsoft, McDonald's and others as well as Switzerland are all starting to accept digital currencies as acceptable payment.
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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:48 pm

Masurbia wrote:Okay I addressed the privacy concern and the criminal element. I did say that companies like eBay, Microsoft, McDonald's and others as well as Switzerland are all starting to accept digital currencies as acceptable payment.

OOC: Saying "exploitative RL bullies are starting to think this thing is exploitable" isn't necessarily an argument for your proposal. :P

(Yes, Switzerland is a bully when it comes to financial things.)
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Masurbia
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Postby Masurbia » Wed Jan 10, 2018 2:50 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Masurbia wrote:Okay I addressed the privacy concern and the criminal element. I did say that companies like eBay, Microsoft, McDonald's and others as well as Switzerland are all starting to accept digital currencies as acceptable payment.

OOC: Saying "exploitative RL bullies are starting to think this thing is exploitable" isn't necessarily an argument for your proposal. :P

(Yes, Switzerland is a bully when it comes to financial things.)

What do you mean :eyebrow: ? The Swiss are accepting bitcoin as a tax payment.
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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:04 pm

Masurbia wrote:The Swiss are accepting bitcoin as a tax payment.

OOC: Which, presumably, requires a set exchange rate and government oversight?
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:43 pm

Masurbia wrote:Okay I addressed the privacy concern and the criminal element. I did say that companies like eBay, Microsoft, McDonald's and others as well as Switzerland are all starting to accept digital currencies as acceptable payment.

OOC: You...really didn't address any of the criminal concerns. Its great that, in the real world, certain companies are willing to accept these currencies. Its even pretty cool that Switzerland is accepting them in a limited capacity. That's a far cry from requiring every single one of the almost 300 nations in the world from accepting them as legal tender in literally all transactions. In the real world, every entity you suggested has a method of tracking those transactions, but there is no way to do that between private entities, which means its impossible to even assess income taxes if the parties use this cryptocurrency.

The end result of a totally untraceable currency is a total loss of government control over the kind of transactions you really want governments to regulate.

What's the problem with lawyer jokes?
Lawyer's don't think they're funny, and no one else thinks they're jokes.

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Masurbia
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Postby Masurbia » Wed Jan 10, 2018 4:00 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Masurbia wrote:Okay I addressed the privacy concern and the criminal element. I did say that companies like eBay, Microsoft, McDonald's and others as well as Switzerland are all starting to accept digital currencies as acceptable payment.

OOC: You...really didn't address any of the criminal concerns. Its great that, in the real world, certain companies are willing to accept these currencies. Its even pretty cool that Switzerland is accepting them in a limited capacity. That's a far cry from requiring every single one of the almost 300 nations in the world from accepting them as legal tender in literally all transactions. In the real world, every entity you suggested has a method of tracking those transactions, but there is no way to do that between private entities, which means its impossible to even assess income taxes if the parties use this cryptocurrency.

The end result of a totally untraceable currency is a total loss of government control over the kind of transactions you really want governments to regulate.

Atleast for the United States, the IRS is cracking down on people for not reporting their cryptocurrency's.

According to BusinessInsider, "In 2017, at least eight U.S. States have worked on bills accepting or promoting the use of Bitcoin and blockchain technology, while a couple of them have already passed them into law.

The most important developments for blockchain’s regulation and implementation in the U.S. in an evidentiary context occurred in Arizona (recognition of smart contracts), Vermont (blockchain as evidence), Chicago (real estate records), and, most importantly, Delaware (pending initiative authorizing registration of shares of Delaware companies in blockchain form).

In the U.S., Bitcoin is set to be given the same financial safeguards as traditional assets. The U.S. Commodity Futures Trading Commission has granted LedgerX, a cryptocurrency trading platform operator, approval to become the first federally regulated digital currency options exchange and clearinghouse in the U.S."

In Europe also, "The European Commission is “actively monitoring Blockchain and DLT developments” and is working on exploring “DLT benefits and challenges as well as fields for application in financial services"."
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