[DRAFT] Repeal "Prevention of Torture"

[The Legion Imperial]

Repeal "Prevention of Torture"
World Assembly,
Recognizing that GAR #9 had noble intentions.

Understanding that this topic is controversial.

Understanding that the number of Terrorist cells, and anti human groups have risen since the passage of GAR #9.

Proposing that in this time, enhanced tactics are needed to extract information, from such groups, who may hold onto such information throughout imprisonment.

Seeing that such tactics may be classified as physical or psychological torture.

Understanding that as stated above, such tactics are sometimes vital.

Knowing that the information could save lives.

Knowing that torture is most often used not as a way of controlling the populace, but for extracting important information from persons who wish to do harm to others.

Asking that member nations only use torture as a last resort.

Asking that members consider the "Ticking Time Bomb Scenario" in which your police capture a terrorist who has planted a time bomb somewhere in the city.

Asking that the World Assembly Repeal "Prevention of Torture.

[Kenmoria]

"We won't comment with much, seeing as you've asked us not to, but the proposal would be a lot neater if it had line breaks after each clause. There is also an unneeded comma after 'physical' in the 'seeing' clause."

[Separatist Peoples]

"We have seen this same argument in every attempt to repeal Prevention of Torture, and to this day, it remains unconvincing. Torture doesn't work, and so there is no justification for it. Opposed."

[The Legion Imperial]

I just meant people commenting whether they agree of disagree with it. I want criticism over the legality in the eyes of the council, and grammer and formatting stuff. Thanks for you criticism though! Very Helpful.

[The New California Republic]

Understanding that the number of Terrorist cells, and groups have risen.

OOC: Have they? Based on...what exactly?

Proposing that in this time, enhanced tactics are needed to extract information, from such groups.

OOC: Why "in this time"? What is different about current circumstance? That the number of terrorist groups has risen, something that is totally unverifiable?

Understanding that such tactics are sometimes vital.

OOC: Are they? Why?

Knowing that the information could save lives.

OOC: Oh no, not that old chestnut...

In these changing times information may need to be extracted from unwilling participants, in order to save lives.

OOC: You already played that card. You need to come up with more reasons than just saving lives, which is debatable anyway.

[Frisbeeteria]

So, a little less than two hours after posting a draft, and having received one neutral and two negative posts, you decided to submit this? That's very premature.

You should withdraw this now, get some feedback, make some changes, and maybe think about submitting it in a week or two. Writing resolutions is a marathon, not a sprint.

[Bears Armed]

Including notable groups such as Antifa,Nazi Europe

OOC
Meta-gaming: Illegal.

[Stoskavanya]

So, a little less than two hours after posting a draft, and having received one neutral and two negative posts, you decided to submit this? That's very premature.

You should withdraw this now, get some feedback, make some changes, and maybe think about submitting it in a week or two. Writing resolutions is a marathon, not a sprint.

Considering how far the Escort Acts got after being ruled illegal, i'm convinced the new strategy is to submit resolutions as fast as possible and hope nobody notices.

[The Greater Siriusian Domain]

I just meant people commenting whether they agree of disagree with it. I want criticism over the legality in the eyes of the council, and grammer and formatting stuff. Thanks for you criticism though! Very Helpful.

OOC: Legal =/= Good. Just because a proposal is legal doesn't mean it's good. Focus on the good part first, then deal with any legality issues that come up.

[Araraukar]

OOC: Just because USA does it in RL, doesn't mean we should allow it in NS. We may write dystopias, but none of them will ever come close to the horrible pit of hell that's Real Life, nor should they.

[The Legion Imperial]

OOC: Just because USA does it in RL, doesn't mean we should allow it in NS. We may write dystopias, but none of them will ever come close to the horrible pit of hell that's Real Life, nor should they.

Why not?
what makes torture horrible? And who says that real life is a pit of hell?

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: Just because USA does it in RL, doesn't mean we should allow it in NS. We may write dystopias, but none of them will ever come close to the horrible pit of hell that's Real Life, nor should they.

Why not?
what makes torture horrible? And who says that real life is a pit of hell?

Torture treats the victim as a means to an end and not an end in themselves. It treats the victim as a 'thing', not as a person with all the value that we associate with persons. Torturers often explicitly dehumanise their victims to make it easier to torture them. It uses the physical body of the victim not as a component part of a person of value, but as a tool to achieve the aims of the torturer. Torture dehumanizes people by treating them as pawns to be manipulated through their pain.

Torture is sometimes used to destroy the autonomy of the victim. Some societies have used torture to suppress independent thought and convert people to 'right-thinking'. The individual is tortured until they abandon their own views and beliefs and adopt those of the torturers. The victim ceases to be an 'end in themselves' but becomes just another means to support the regime of the torturer. Torture violates the rights and human dignity of the victim, including the legal right to remain silent when questioned

Torture is a slippery slope - each act of torture makes it easier to accept the use of torture in the future. Torture is an ineffective interrogation tool. It will usually produce false information because under torture a prisoner will eventually say anything to stop the pain - regardless of whether it is true. Because of this the interrogator can never be 'sure' that they are getting the truth and will never know when to stop. More effective methods of interrogation that don't involve torture are available

Torture damages the humanity of the torturers. Those who carry out torture are likely to become brutalized by their acts, and desensitized to humanity. The more acts of torture a person carries out, the more likely they are to carry out torture.

Torture damages the institution that carries it out it damages the reputation and moral authority of the institution. Its use is likely to produce internal dissent and so damage the integrity of the institution. Using torture provides 'the enemy' with something they can exploit for propaganda.

Do I need to keep going?

[Sierra Lyricalia]

Repeal "Prevention of Torture"
World Assembly,
Recognizing that GAR #9 had noble intentions.

Understanding that this topic is controversial.

Understanding that the number of Terrorist cells, and anti human groups have risen since the passage of GAR #9.

Proposing that in this time, enhanced tactics are needed to extract information, from such groups, who may hold onto such information throughout imprisonment.

Seeing that such tactics may be classified as physical or psychological torture.

Understanding that as stated above, such tactics are sometimes vital.

Knowing that the information could save lives.

Knowing that torture is most often used not as a way of controlling the populace, but for extracting important information from persons who wish to do harm to others.

Asking that member nations only use torture as a last resort.

Asking that members consider the "Ticking Time Bomb Scenario" in which your police capture a terrorist who has planted a time bomb somewhere in the city.

Asking that the World Assembly Repeal "Prevention of Torture.

"Uhh... umm..." https://youtu.be/pDmGhethEoQ?t=3s "Yeah."

[The New California Republic]

OOC: Just because USA does it in RL, doesn't mean we should allow it in NS. We may write dystopias, but none of them will ever come close to the horrible pit of hell that's Real Life, nor should they.

Why not?
what makes torture horrible? And who says that real life is a pit of hell?

OOC: Be careful that this doesn't turn into a much broader discussion of torture etc...

[Xmara]

Repeal "Prevention of Torture"
World Assembly,
Recognizing that GAR #9 had noble intentions.

Understanding that this topic is controversial.

Understanding that the number of Terrorist cells, and anti human groups have risen since the passage of GAR #9.

Proposing that in this time, enhanced tactics are needed to extract information, from such groups, who may hold onto such information throughout imprisonment.

Seeing that such tactics may be classified as physical or psychological torture.

Understanding that as stated above, such tactics are sometimes vital.

Knowing that the information could save lives.

Knowing that torture is most often used not as a way of controlling the populace, but for extracting important information from persons who wish to do harm to others.

Asking that member nations only use torture as a last resort.

Asking that members consider the "Ticking Time Bomb Scenario" in which your police capture a terrorist who has planted a time bomb somewhere in the city.

Asking that the World Assembly Repeal "Prevention of Torture.

“There are many ways in which this could go wrong. Sure, you ASK member nations to only use torture as a last resort, but does that really do anything? Also, torture has been proven to be a poor way to get information. Opposed.”

[The Legion Imperial]

IT has not. It is one of the most effective ways of getting information. Especially psychological. You put a man in box and start to slowly heat it I guarantee he will tell you whatever he wants. Torture his family in front of him, he will speak.

[The New California Republic]

IT has not. It is one of the most effective ways of getting information. Especially psychological. You put a man in box and start to slowly heat it I guarantee he will tell you whatever he wants. Torture his family in front of him, he will speak.

OOC: I think you need to address the concerns that people have had with the Draft, rather than entering into a debate about the perceived "merits" of torture...

[Separatist Peoples]

IT has not. It is one of the most effective ways of getting information. Especially psychological. You put a man in box and start to slowly heat it I guarantee he will tell you whatever he wants. Torture his family in front of him, he will speak.

"Not really. You do that, and the man will tell you whatever he thinks will stop the pain, true or not."

Ooc: seriously? If you want to be edgy and evil, you can do it without being disgusting.

[The New California Republic]

Ooc: seriously? If you want to be edgy and evil, you can do it without being disgusting.

OOC: To be honest this thread is becoming less and less about the Draft, and more and more about spouting thoroughly disagreeable views from atop a soapbox...

[The Legion Imperial]

Ooc: seriously? If you want to be edgy and evil, you can do it without being disgusting.

OOC: To be honest this thread is becoming less and less about the Draft, and more and more about spouting thoroughly disagreeable views from atop a soapbox...

OOC True True...

[Separatist Peoples]

OOC: To be honest this thread is becoming less and less about the Draft, and more and more about spouting thoroughly disagreeable views from atop a soapbox...

OOC True True...

OOC: So don't do it. A permissive torture policy isn't going to pass. Give up.

[The Legion Imperial]

Not as fun.

[Xmara]

IT has not. It is one of the most effective ways of getting information. Especially psychological. You put a man in box and start to slowly heat it I guarantee he will tell you whatever he wants. Torture his family in front of him, he will speak.

"Not really. You do that, and the man will tell you whatever he thinks will stop the pain, true or not."

Ooc: seriously? If you want to be edgy and evil, you can do it without being disgusting.

“I agree wholeheartedly with my colleague. He will say whatever you want to hear just to stop it, even if it’s a lie.”

[Grays Harbor]

Understanding that the number of Terrorist cells, and anti human groups have risen since the passage of GAR #9.

No, we are not understanding this. Where have they risen? We see no evidence of this anywhere on our planet, or on other planets we have contact with through the GA.

Proposing that in this time, enhanced tactics are needed to extract information, from such groups, who may hold onto such information throughout imprisonment.

It is not the problem of the GA that your interrogators are apparently incompetent.

Understanding that as stated above, such tactics are sometimes vital.

So, to mask the incompetence of your police and military, you wish to revert to medieval tactics. Which, by the way, didn't work then either.

Asking that members consider the "Ticking Time Bomb Scenario" in which your police capture a terrorist who has planted a time bomb somewhere in the city.

The only way this line could be worse would be adding "But Think of the CHILDREN" to it.

So, overall, ... No, ... no repeal on GA9

[States of Glory WA Office]

[quote="Grays Harbor";p="33222340"]The only way this line could be worse would be adding "But Think of the CHILDREN" to it./quote]
Neville: Don't give them any ideas...