[Submitted] Escort Health Act & Escort Education Act

[United Republic Empire]

you provide no argument in your proposals as to why governments must help employees "in the escort services" rather than employees in general, which looks arbitrary enough to me. You might be able to find arguments to include to settle this, in a longer drafting stage here.

OOC: The problem is that, in their current form, neither of these proposals were drafted on the forum at all. The last draft that was posted here was thought to be illegal, then it was submitted anyway regardless, and GenSec deemed it illegal. Then these 2 new proposals suddenly appear out of nowhere with no drafting at all...

There is no rule that requires anyone to draft on the NS forums. It is a suggestion. That fact that you consistently feel the need to bring that up looks like you're trying to stir up some drama and start an argument.

[Kenmoria]

OOC: The problem is that, in their current form, neither of these proposals were drafted on the forum at all. The last draft that was posted here was thought to be illegal, then it was submitted anyway regardless, and GenSec deemed it illegal. Then these 2 new proposals suddenly appear out of nowhere with no drafting at all...

There is no rule that requires anyone to draft on the NS forums. It is a suggestion. That fact that you consistently feel the need to bring that up looks like you're trying to stir up some drama and start an argument.

(OOC: There may not be a rule requiring it, but it is seen by almost every, if not every, GA regular as something you should do. It certainly is a valid point to bring up)

"The Kenmorian WA mission sees no need for special requirments for members of one profession and believes doing so is unfair to those employed in other lines of work. As a result of this, we are opposed to these proposals."

[United Republic Empire]

There is no rule that requires anyone to draft on the NS forums. It is a suggestion. That fact that you consistently feel the need to bring that up looks like you're trying to stir up some drama and start an argument.

(OOC: There may not be a rule requiring it, but it is seen by almost every, if not every, GA regular as something you should do. It certainly is a valid point to bring up)

"The Kenmorian WA mission sees no need for special requirments for members of one profession and believes doing so is unfair to those employed in other lines of work. As a result of this, we are opposed to these proposals."

I understand that, but to consistently mention it at every chance they get is utterly annoying. It's like we're back in middle school or something.

[Tzorsland]

There is no rule that requires anyone to draft on the NS forums. It is a suggestion. That fact that you consistently feel the need to bring that up looks like you're trying to stir up some drama and start an argument.

One of the reasons is that it has taken a long time to even acknowledge the existence of the forums within the base rule set and the game itself. While it is not a rule it is considered protocol and etiquette. As someone who has seen far too many years here than I want to admit, even when making a working draft on an offsite forum, it was customary to bring it here for a final draft. Everyone has their say and everyone is happy. Otherwise you just make yourself out to be an obnoxious little snot whose resolutions should be voted down just because of the author.

Which used to happen quite a lot, if I recall correctly.

[The New California Republic]

OOC: The problem is that, in their current form, neither of these proposals were drafted on the forum at all. The last draft that was posted here was thought to be illegal, then it was submitted anyway regardless, and GenSec deemed it illegal. Then these 2 new proposals suddenly appear out of nowhere with no drafting at all...

There is no rule that requires anyone to draft on the NS forums. It is a suggestion. That fact that you consistently feel the need to bring that up looks like you're trying to stir up some drama and start an argument.

Nope, you are reading something into it that isn't there. And yes, drafting is a suggestion, a very good suggestion, as it highlights potential flaws in a proposal, and there are quite a lot of them in this. I really don't understand why you posted a draft for the original proposal, but then you split it into 2 separate proposals with no draft for either. What changed?

[Latrovia]

As 2017 is leaving us behind, I keep questioning whether there are any alternative ways. Should two acts be tackled down for not being posted, drafted and redrafted in the forums? Should we tackle down the efforts, of the authors and a whole region behind them?

While I understand that some customs change from time to time, I yet feel like there is nothing really wrong around here, except maybe the hot temper of each and every one of us. Instead of trying to prove who's more worthy and implement their own ways and methods to an act, how about we cherish these lasts hours that keep us away from the New Year's Eve.

I will personally support both acts, you gentlemen do as you please!

[The New California Republic]

I understand that, but to consistently mention it at every chance they get is utterly annoying. It's like we're back in middle school or something.

I was asking a simple question, and you may not have seen the question so I posted it so you could see it again. It is a pretty reasonable question to ask...

[The New California Republic]

As 2017 is leaving us behind, I keep questioning whether there are any alternative ways. Should two acts be tackled down for not being posted, drafted and redrafted in the forums? Should we tackle down the efforts, of the authors and a whole region behind them?

While I understand that some customs change from time to time, I yet feel like there is nothing really wrong around here, except maybe the hot temper of each and every one of us. Instead of trying to prove who's more worthy and implement their own ways and methods to an act, how about we cherish these lasts hours that keep us away from the New Year's Eve.

I will personally support both acts, you gentlemen do as you please!

OOC: You are the co-author, so obviously you are going to support them...

[Latrovia]

As 2017 is leaving us behind, I keep questioning whether there are any alternative ways. Should two acts be tackled down for not being posted, drafted and redrafted in the forums? Should we tackle down the efforts, of the authors and a whole region behind them?

While I understand that some customs change from time to time, I yet feel like there is nothing really wrong around here, except maybe the hot temper of each and every one of us. Instead of trying to prove who's more worthy and implement their own ways and methods to an act, how about we cherish these lasts hours that keep us away from the New Year's Eve.

I will personally support both acts, you gentlemen do as you please!

OOC: You are the co-author, so obviously you are going to support them...

Yes, I am, going to inspire, create, author, co-author, love, cherish, enjoy and pick up, plan, draft and work again and again and again in both the GA, Enadia and other regions and I will most probably work with people that irritate me. People that bother me, but hey that's alright.

I am open to work on the schematics, the planning and the work that needs to be done. So instead of simply pointing out the flaws of each bill, come in, join us and work on the schematics as well... If this bill is going to affect WA nations, how about we make it happen altogether?

[The New California Republic]

OOC: You are the co-author, so obviously you are going to support them...

I am open to work on the schematics, the planning and the work that needs to be done. So instead of simply pointing out the flaws of each bill, come in, join us and work on the schematics as well... If this bill is going to affect WA nations, how about we make it happen altogether?

OOC: Trust me, I want to, but without a draft posted here for either proposal then that's a bit difficult, isn't it? I cannot help with a proposal without seeing a draft. And no, I am not going to join an offsite forum to debate a draft, it can get posted here instead.

[Attempted Socialism]

OOC: You are the co-author, so obviously you are going to support them...

Yes, I am, going to inspire, create, author, co-author, love, cherish, enjoy and pick up, plan, draft and work again and again and again in both the GA, Enadia and other regions and I will most probably work with people that irritate me. People that bother me, but hey that's alright.

I am open to work on the schematics, the planning and the work that needs to be done. So instead of simply pointing out the flaws of each bill, come in, join us and work on the schematics as well... If this bill is going to affect WA nations, how about we make it happen altogether?

OOC:
By your actions, you have shown that to be a lie. You did not refine your draft based on the debate here, and subsequent drafts were not even posted. This despite several repeat attempts to get you to post it it here.

[Latrovia]

Yes, I am, going to inspire, create, author, co-author, love, cherish, enjoy and pick up, plan, draft and work again and again and again in both the GA, Enadia and other regions and I will most probably work with people that irritate me. People that bother me, but hey that's alright.

I am open to work on the schematics, the planning and the work that needs to be done. So instead of simply pointing out the flaws of each bill, come in, join us and work on the schematics as well... If this bill is going to affect WA nations, how about we make it happen altogether?

OOC:
By your actions, you have shown that to be a lie. You did not refine your draft based on the debate here, and subsequent drafts were not even posted. This despite several repeat attempts to get you to post it it here.

Again, got any valuable feedback? Do you? Oh, you have some awesome ideas that you'd like to implement the current acts themselves? Great, post it down below and the authors will revise them!

[The New California Republic]

OOC:
By your actions, you have shown that to be a lie. You did not refine your draft based on the debate here, and subsequent drafts were not even posted. This despite several repeat attempts to get you to post it it here.

Again, got any valuable feedback? Do you? Great, post it down below and the authors will revise them!

OOC: How can they make revisions to 2 proposals already submitted?

[United Republic Empire]

Yes, I am, going to inspire, create, author, co-author, love, cherish, enjoy and pick up, plan, draft and work again and again and again in both the GA, Enadia and other regions and I will most probably work with people that irritate me. People that bother me, but hey that's alright.

I am open to work on the schematics, the planning and the work that needs to be done. So instead of simply pointing out the flaws of each bill, come in, join us and work on the schematics as well... If this bill is going to affect WA nations, how about we make it happen altogether?

OOC:
By your actions, you have shown that to be a lie. You did not refine your draft based on the debate here, and subsequent drafts were not even posted. This despite several repeat attempts to get you to post it it here.

I suppose splitting a proposal in two. rewriting the wording, and removing or adding bits isn't re-drafting - but ok. It was refined under suggestions made from CD among others. Yes we did not post the re-drafts here as it is not a requirement. Please try to read the whole topic discussion before making your accusations. The only one repeatedly requesting was NCR. Others said it once and that was all that was needed because it is our choice whether to draft on our own forums or here.

[Attempted Socialism]

OOC:
By your actions, you have shown that to be a lie. You did not refine your draft based on the debate here, and subsequent drafts were not even posted. This despite several repeat attempts to get you to post it it here.

Again, got any valuable feedback? Do you? Oh, you have some awesome ideas that you'd like to implement the current acts themselves? Great, post it down below and the authors will revise them!

OOC:
On my mobile, so I can not go through and quote you all the times people have suggested improvements. Go through yourself and see. Had you wanted an open drafting process, all your mistakes could have been caught as well.

[The New California Republic]

OOC:
By your actions, you have shown that to be a lie. You did not refine your draft based on the debate here, and subsequent drafts were not even posted. This despite several repeat attempts to get you to post it it here.

I suppose splitting a proposal in two. rewriting the wording, and removing or adding bits isn't re-drafting - but ok. It was refined under suggestions made from CD among others. Yes we did not post the re-drafts here as it is not a requirement. Please try to read the whole topic discussion before making your accusations. The only one repeatedly requesting was NCR. Others said it once and that was all that was needed because it is our choice whether to draft on our own forums or here.

OOC: The point by Attempted Socialism is absolutely correct. You didn't refine the current proposals based on the feedback, because drafts were never posted here in the first place. And yes, many people have said to you that it is a good idea to post a draft to the NS forums, not an offsite forum. It isn't a rule, but it certainly is good manners to post it here.

[United Republic Empire]

I suppose splitting a proposal in two. rewriting the wording, and removing or adding bits isn't re-drafting - but ok. It was refined under suggestions made from CD among others. Yes we did not post the re-drafts here as it is not a requirement. Please try to read the whole topic discussion before making your accusations. The only one repeatedly requesting was NCR. Others said it once and that was all that was needed because it is our choice whether to draft on our own forums or here.

OOC: The point by Attempted Socialism is absolutely correct. You didn't refine the current proposals based on the feedback, because drafts were never posted here in the first place. And yes, many people have said to you that it is a good idea to post a draft to the NS forums, not an offsite forum. It isn't a rule, but it certainly is good manners to post it here.

Just because we didn't refine the drafts here does not mean that we did not refine them on our forums. We did refine them on the feedback just not your feedback in particular.

[Attempted Socialism]

OOC:
By your actions, you have shown that to be a lie. You did not refine your draft based on the debate here, and subsequent drafts were not even posted. This despite several repeat attempts to get you to post it it here.

I suppose splitting a proposal in two. rewriting the wording, and removing or adding bits isn't re-drafting - but ok. It was refined under suggestions made from CD among others. Yes we did not post the re-drafts here as it is not a requirement. Please try to read the whole topic discussion before making your accusations. The only one repeatedly requesting was NCR. Others said it once and that was all that was needed because it is our choice whether to draft on our own forums or here.

OOC:
The reason I used "refined based on the debate here" is because while you changed things, you did only correct clear illegalities, not any of the many other errors. You have kept all errors that would not make the proposal strictly illegal.

[The New California Republic]

OOC: The point by Attempted Socialism is absolutely correct. You didn't refine the current proposals based on the feedback, because drafts were never posted here in the first place. And yes, many people have said to you that it is a good idea to post a draft to the NS forums, not an offsite forum. It isn't a rule, but it certainly is good manners to post it here.

Just because we didn't refine the drafts here does not mean that we did not refine them on our forums. We did refine them on the feedback just not your feedback in particular.

OOC: You didn't refine them here though. The offsite forum is irrelevant. It's irrelevancy is shown by the many flaws in the proposals that your offsite forum failed to catch. Will you please just consider posting drafts here in the future, it would save all this mess from happening time and time again. I really don't understand your refusal to post drafts here, it seems a very self-defeating move...

[Frisbeeteria]

Just because we didn't refine the drafts here does not mean that we did not refine them on our forums.

You're spending far more time and effort defending your choice to not post a draft than you would have by actually listening to feedback and updating your draft.

Learn from this.

[Latrovia]

Gentlemen, I am sorry that you see it in that way. But we changed what we thought that it needed to be changed. Of course, as you understand, too many cooks spoil a soup. And as you are aware, unfortunately, we can not implement everyone's ideas on the Acts, but we can revise and select a few of them. If you have any suggestions about the wording, please provide your own examples. It'd be a tone of help, instead of sending us back and forth, thinking again and again what we should change now, in order to please the crowds.

Thank you in advance!

[United Republic Empire]

Just because we didn't refine the drafts here does not mean that we did not refine them on our forums.

You're spending far more time and effort defending your choice to not post a draft than you would have by actually listening to feedback and updating your draft.

Learn from this.

We wouldn't have to defend it so much if NCR would drop the subject of drafting here instead of mentioning it every chance they get. There is no need to mention "draft here" multiple times, just say it once or twice and be done with it. In the event we choose not to then that's our choice no need to keep trying to force us to.

[The New California Republic]

Gentlemen, I am sorry that you see it in that way. But we changed what we thought that it needed to be changed. Of course, as you understand, too many cooks spoil a soup. And as you are aware, unfortunately, we can not implement everyone's ideas on the Acts, but we can revise and select a few of them. If you have any suggestions about the wording, please provide your own examples. It'd be a tone of help, instead of sending us back and forth, thinking again and again what we should change now, in order to please the crowds.

Thank you in advance!

OOC: I put it to you again: how can we comment on something that has not been posted here in the form of a draft, and how exactly can any suggestions be put into a proposal that has already been submitted?

Please listen, instead of constantly using these cut-and-paste platitude statements...

[Attempted Socialism]

Gentlemen, I am sorry that you see it in that way. But we changed what we thought that it needed to be changed. Of course, as you understand, too many cooks spoil a soup. And as you are aware, unfortunately, we can not implement everyone's ideas on the Acts, but we can revise and select a few of them. If you have any suggestions about the wording, please provide your own examples. It'd be a tone of help, instead of sending us back and forth, thinking again and again what we should change now, in order to please the crowds.

Thank you in advance!

OOC:
So you will pull the submitted proposals and redraft?

[The New California Republic]

You're spending far more time and effort defending your choice to not post a draft than you would have by actually listening to feedback and updating your draft.

Learn from this.

We wouldn't have to defend it so much if NCR would drop the subject of drafting here instead of mentioning it every chance they get. There is no need to mention "draft here" multiple times, just say it once or twice and be done with it. In the event we choose not to then that's our choice no need to keep trying to force us to.

OOC: It isn't just me that is highlighting the problem with a lack of drafts. And believe me, it is a problem...