Abortion Conference, Floor 16, Room 112 of the WA HQ

[Imperium Anglorum]

Principle. Principal is a person who is first, a sum of money, or an agent.

[Furbystan]

Can we please stop it with the whole "RF is the will of the electorate, and if you don't like it then leave the WA" thing? I doubt those on the pro-abortion rights side who are appealing to the "democratic legitimacy" of Reproductive Freedoms would be singing the same tune if we were discussing what to do about a complete ban on abortion by the World Assembly instead. I think we would see repeated attempts to repeal such a resolution and appeals to compromise and dialogue towards a more neutral replacement, just as we see here.

There's also the simple reality that the World Assembly electorate is highly malleable and, with few exceptions, votes the way the majority are voting after the first few hours. I seriously doubt the World Assembly electorate has become radically more pro-abortion rights since a few years ago, when On Abortion was nearly repealed using broadly pro-life arguments by a margin of 2 percentage points -- after a lengthy and thorough campaign, of course. Reproductive Freedoms is still on the books because of a few delegates who voted early -- that's it. If a World Assembly regular with significant regional influence wanted Reproductive Freedoms repealed, it wouldn't last long.

"If the problem with RF repeal is the influential delegates and not that it's fundamentally bad idea, why not to address the problem itself? Contact the delegates, seek to sway them to your side, visit their home regions that are giving them their power in the first place? Isn't it an obvious solution, as opposed to spamming the WA with doomed repeal proposals?"

[Imperium Anglorum]

If the problem with RF repeal are the influential delegates

Yea, yea, please. Let's take away the dead 'delegates are the cause of everything' claptrap. Not only are the majority of votes cast by member nations, large delegates mostly vote off the opinions of their constituents or their WA ministries, not their personal opinions.

[North Arkana]

If the problem with RF repeal are the influential delegates

Yea, yea, please. Let's take away the dead 'delegates are the cause of everything' claptrap. Not only are the majority of votes cast by member nations, large delegates mostly vote off the opinions of their constituents or their WA ministries, not their personal opinions.

Even if we assumed that half of the votes which defeated the repeal were from delegates, the vote still failed by an almost 2/3 supermajority.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

((OOC: so this is my first post in a WA debate, sorry if I mess it up.))

IC:

With surprising speed for one so old, Senior representative Varanti Nij stood from her seat and put her hands out, beginning to bang on the table to stop the discussion.
"Thank you, honourable delegates," she began in her crisp, unquavering Havenic accent. "Our Haven will never support the false right of a mother to murder her unborn child. It is anathema to us; we believe that a life is sacred and cannot be taken by a mere carrier. Perhaps we could consider that this is a law for the member nations, not for the world assembly to decide upon?"

[Tinfect]

Precisely because the WA consists of many species with different biological functions, we ought to give nations maximum leniency to determine their own policies.

"Ambassador, the Imperium, as an advanced civilization, has encountered a wide variety of species. Specific moral convictions aside, we have not found a single one in which the individual choice of induced termination of pregnancy or equivalent is cause for concern. If You have particular knowledge of one, do please share it immediately. Otherwise, return this absurd argument to the wastebin you found it in."

[North Arkana]

((OOC: so this is my first post in a WA debate, sorry if I mess it up.))

IC:

With surprising speed for one so old, Senior representative Varanti Nij stood from her seat and put her hands out, beginning to bang on the table to stop the discussion.
"Thank you, honourable delegates," she began in her crisp, unquavering Havenic accent. "Our Haven will never support the false right of a mother to murder her unborn child. It is anathema to us; we believe that a life is sacred and cannot be taken by a mere carrier. Perhaps we could consider that this is a law for the member nations, not for the world assembly to decide upon?"

"And our nation once held that the head of the royal family could impregnate whoever they damn well pleased, whenever they wanted. Should we also devolve such control as that back to individual nations? Or is that different to you, because that was simply the king taking his choice of 'carriers', to use your own dehumanizing term.

"Solely pertaining to human pregnancy, non-human cases excluded for the sake sake simplicity for simple nation, an embryo, a zygote, and a fetus prior to a certain developmental state, are not yet humans, yet these 'carriers' are. In such case, the 'carrier' as you call them, but let's use the proper term, human, holds greater right than the non-human entity."

[Essu Beti]

((OOC: so this is my first post in a WA debate, sorry if I mess it up.))

IC:

With surprising speed for one so old, Senior representative Varanti Nij stood from her seat and put her hands out, beginning to bang on the table to stop the discussion.
"Thank you, honourable delegates," she began in her crisp, unquavering Havenic accent. "Our Haven will never support the false right of a mother to murder her unborn child. It is anathema to us; we believe that a life is sacred and cannot be taken by a mere carrier. Perhaps we could consider that this is a law for the member nations, not for the world assembly to decide upon?"

((Good roleplaying, horrible topic to choose for your first one. This is a conference with a lot of old drama behind it, and you may well get bowled over trying to keep up))

"Just what we needed, another line in the sand," snipes Iksana. "You announcing your intention to stand firm and not compromise is the exact opposite of help in a conference that is theoretically about compromising."

[United Massachusetts]

I urge everyone who doesn't have anything productive to say to walk across the hall, where we are offering free...cookies.

[Separatist Peoples]

I urge everyone who doesn't have anything productive to say to walk across the hall, where we are offering free...cookies.

"We are disinclined to accept your offer, ambassador."

[The Sheika]

I urge everyone who doesn't have anything productive to say to walk across the hall, where we are offering free...cookies.

Define productive. The meaning of the word can be subjective.

[Furbystan]

I urge everyone who doesn't have anything productive to say to walk across the hall, where we are offering free...cookies.

"Well, what do you define as 'productive', exactly? So far you wanted to reach a compomise, but what need for compromise is there for pro-choice wing, which already gets everything it wants? No matter what would come in replacement, we will lose. Nobody wants it!

Besides, Auralia have outlined the problem like this:

Reproductive Freedoms is still on the books because of a few delegates who voted early -- that's it. If a World Assembly regular with significant regional influence wanted Reproductive Freedoms repealed, it wouldn't last long.

So, why not to fix this exact problem? It does seems that you believe that democratic majority is on your side. It can't be this hard."

[Prydania]

"I would like to reinterate the point that has been made by the Ambassador from Imperium Anglorum. The delegates are not the issue. The last attempt to repeal GA 286 would have failed by a wide margin even if just the individual votes were counted."

[Calladan]

((OOC: so this is my first post in a WA debate, sorry if I mess it up.))

IC:

With surprising speed for one so old, Senior representative Varanti Nij stood from her seat and put her hands out, beginning to bang on the table to stop the discussion.
"Thank you, honourable delegates," she began in her crisp, unquavering Havenic accent. "Our Haven will never support the false right of a mother to murder her unborn child. It is anathema to us; we believe that a life is sacred and cannot be taken by a mere carrier. Perhaps we could consider that this is a law for the member nations, not for the world assembly to decide upon?"

Tara lets out a long slow breath.

"If such a thing were possible, Representative Nij, what would you be willing to trade off in return?" Tara pauses "For a start, to get to your desired position it would take a repeal of not one but two resolutions, and so far repealing one has proved impossible, so it would seem unlikely that the pro-choice nations would be just willing to agree without getting something in return" She bites her lip "How about an agreement to allow women to travel to other countries, and to have immunity from prosecution for - and I cannot think of a better way to phrase this even though it sounds clunky in my head - certain classes of abortion. I am kind of making this up as I go along, and it has been a long day, so please do not hold me to any of this and do not yell at me for saying it, but if a nation specifically wanted to outlaw abortion to choose the sex of the baby, or abortion based on predicted IQ, that could be excluded from the immunity list, but otherwise a woman could travel to another nation, have an abortion, then return without risk of prosecution" She looks around, then back at Representative Nij "I understand that that is not ideal, and it is not everything you want, but that is the essence of diplomacy and compromise and what we are trying to achieve. That while not everyone is perfectly happy, more people are happy than they are now"

[Calladan]

Tara stands up and stretches.

"Well, I have to admit the first day went slightly better than I thought it would. But please accept my apologies, as I have to leave you now, since it turns out I do actually require sleep. Good night"

She turns and leaves the room, closing the door behind her.

[Godular]

At the sound of the door closing, Alexis' head bolts up from her spot at the table and she looks around at the assembled ambassadors while wiping stray curls of blonde hair from her face.

"What in the name of... this room was empty an hour ago! I was told NOBODY ever comes in this room. Ugh."

She looks around, and notes the other people in the room and sighs. "Bloody hells, not THIS garbage again. Stop cursing at the wind and learn to fly."

[New Waldensia]

Josiah Garrett, Delegate from New Waldensia, finished munching on a chocolate chip cookie. "My compliments to the chef; whomever baked these knows what they're doing."

"Esteemed delegates, I am here representing a pro-life nation and a pro-life region. In my country, we have deeply-held beliefs on this issue, holding that abortion in nearly every instance is immoral and abhorrent. In our region, most member-nations hold similar beliefs, at most allowing for abortion in cases of rape, incest, and life of the mother."

"However, in the spirit of this gathering, in the spirit of compromise, I shall endeavor to put forward some examples of compromise on this issue. I am somewhat late to this gathering, but have heard few concrete proposals toward that end."

"For example, perhaps a compromise solution could include some or multiple of these items:

"The complete abolition of the diabolical practice known as 'Partial Birth Abortion'.
Abortion legal at all points up until labor, for cases of rape, incest, and life of the mother.
Abortion legal until the point of viability (which may be different for the various species).
Forced sterilization be made illegal as well as restrictions on how many children a mother or family can have being made illegal.
Protections against harassment or impeding of medical personnel and individuals seeking abortions.

"These are a few suggestions. I might be able to come up with some more, after a few more of these delicious cookies."

[North Arkana]

Josiah Garrett, Delegate from New Waldensia, finished munching on a chocolate chip cookie. "My compliments to the chef; whomever baked these knows what they're doing."

"Esteemed delegates, I am here representing a pro-life nation and a pro-life region. In my country, we have deeply-held beliefs on this issue, holding that abortion in nearly every instance is immoral and abhorrent. In our region, most member-nations hold similar beliefs, at most allowing for abortion in cases of rape, incest, and life of the mother."

"However, in the spirit of this gathering, in the spirit of compromise, I shall endeavor to put forward some examples of compromise on this issue. I am somewhat late to this gathering, but have heard few concrete proposals toward that end."

"For example, perhaps a compromise solution could include some or multiple of these items:

"The complete abolition of the diabolical practice known as 'Partial Birth Abortion'.
Abortion legal at all points up until labor, for cases of rape, incest, and life of the mother.
Abortion legal until the point of viability (which may be different for the various species).
Forced sterilization be made illegal as well as restrictions on how many children a mother or family can have being made illegal.
Protections against harassment or impeding of medical personnel and individuals seeking abortions.

"These are a few suggestions. I might be able to come up with some more, after a few more of these delicious cookies."

"If this assembly would kindly be intelligent enough to stop giving the time of day to this 'partial-birth abortion' myth created by the anti-choice lobby, that would be swell. In any case intact dilation and extraction is primarily used in cases of miscarriage, and when the pregnancy cannot be safely brought to delivery. Any minor victory over ignorance would be well appreciated, and I'd like it if we can't start with this piece of non-academic drivel."

[Araraukar]

OOC: Also, a full ban on "cutting up the fetus during birth to save the mother's life in a case of severe complications and low tech birthing environment" would be a bad idea. Not everyone in RL can give birth in a first world hospital, I don't see why it would be different in NS.

[Godular]

Josiah Garrett, Delegate from New Waldensia, finished munching on a chocolate chip cookie. "My compliments to the chef; whomever baked these knows what they're doing."

"Esteemed delegates, I am here representing a pro-life nation and a pro-life region. In my country, we have deeply-held beliefs on this issue, holding that abortion in nearly every instance is immoral and abhorrent. In our region, most member-nations hold similar beliefs, at most allowing for abortion in cases of rape, incest, and life of the mother."

"However, in the spirit of this gathering, in the spirit of compromise, I shall endeavor to put forward some examples of compromise on this issue. I am somewhat late to this gathering, but have heard few concrete proposals toward that end."

"For example, perhaps a compromise solution could include some or multiple of these items:

"The complete abolition of the diabolical practice known as 'Partial Birth Abortion'.
Abortion legal at all points up until labor, for cases of rape, incest, and life of the mother.
Abortion legal until the point of viability (which may be different for the various species).
Forced sterilization be made illegal as well as restrictions on how many children a mother or family can have being made illegal.
Protections against harassment or impeding of medical personnel and individuals seeking abortions.

"These are a few suggestions. I might be able to come up with some more, after a few more of these delicious cookies."

"I guess 'Curses in the wind' suffers a little in translation?"

[Sciongrad]

OOC: Guys, come on. I know Auralia thinks that pro-choice proponents would probably wince at the argument that the electorate has spoken if we had some nega-RF on the books, but that doesn't change the fact that the WA has overwhelmingly rejected, what, three repeals of RF? By 80-20 margins? Nothing is going to happen. If the ghosts of Phyllis Shlafly and William Buckley were elected delegates of TNP and 10KI tomorrow, a repeal would still fail by a margin of probably at least 30 points. RF is unrepealable. It is not only a colossal waste of time but also extremely annoying that we're dedicating so much energy to this.

[Hierusalem Novus]

Ave Iesus Christus Rex.

I, et the entirety of The Holy Alliance unanimously believe abortion to be wrong.
It is child murder. Infanticide. It is a sin.
My region would fully support a full repeal of any child murder laws, et the implimentation of anti-infanticide laws.

Ave Iesus Christus Rex.

[Wallenburg]

After consoling the poor, obscure ambassador whose office had been commandeered by the abortion folks, Ogenbond finds a seat, gets comfortable, and says, "No."

[North Arkana]

Ave Iesus Christus Rex.

I, et the entirety of The Holy Alliance unanimously believe abortion to be wrong.
It is child murder. Infanticide. It is a sin.
My region would fully support a full repeal of any child murder laws, et the implimentation of anti-infanticide laws.

Ave Iesus Christus Rex.

All of 4 nations without an actual regional delegate. Your significance shall be noted.

[Excidium Planetis]

Blackbourne enters the room with force, flanked by Sergeant Timmons and some other guard the narrator did not feel the need to give a name to yet.

He swiftly reads over the transcript, which is assumed to exist. After he finishes, he listens to the current conversation.

"Ambassador, the Imperium, as an advanced civilization, has encountered a wide variety of species. Specific moral convictions aside, we have not found a single one in which the individual choice of induced termination of pregnancy or equivalent is cause for concern. If You have particular knowledge of one, do please share it immediately. Otherwise, return this absurd argument to the wastebin you found it in."

"Your nation having not encountered any beings which are sapient prior to birth is no reason to say that there is no cause for concern in such a policy. Reproductive Freedoms makes no exception for such species, and it is appalling that any nation would stand by the legalized murder of sapient beings."