[SUBMITTED] Repeal GA #114

[Thermodolia]

Just a question is your only argument for legalizing FGM going to be "freedom of religion"?

No, it also infringes on some cultural traditions, and on parental authority over their children.

"Culture traditions, religion, and parental authority are not excuses for torture.

[States of Glory WA Office]

Fairburn: You know what else is a cultural tradition? Defenestration.

[Serrus]

Fairburn: You know what else is a cultural tradition? Defenestration.

OOC: *hugs you for making this thread less bad*

[Sierra Lyricalia]

...GAR #114 restricts freedom of religion. Argue against that, leftists!

OOC: Reading this thread, I feel like any breath expended on you is simply wasted, but sure, I'll bite.

An individual right, including one person's freedom to practice his religion, is not absolute or infinite. Individual A's freedom of behavior ends where that behavior affects Individual B without B's fully informed consent. If this were not so, anyone could do anything to anyone else and civil society would be impossible. Literally the entire political spectrum, from totalitarians to anarchists, understands this - even if you do not.

QED

Next!

[Prydania]

"I'm sure that whatever religion that presumably participates in such activities, would find some more legal-standing activities to practice its religion. The resolution isn't restricting the religion itself, but a certain practice of it. So that isn't restricting 'freedom of religion.' "

When laws prevent you from following all the points of your religion, yes, it is restricting freedom of religion. It's like if I made eating pork mandatory, the Jews and Muslims would say I was violating freedom of religion.

"I do believe you'd need to find a Jew or Muslim in your country to ask them about that. And seeing as your government isn't too keen on granting religious freedom to your own citizenry, well that could be a problem for you."

[Frisbeeteria]

GAR #114 restricts freedom of religion. Argue against that, leftists!

You're ignoring perhaps the most pertinent question: "is it law, or is it custom?" I'm betting that FGM is custom, not law. It's common in some Islamic nations, but not in all of them. That means there are devout Muslims who do not practice this act, and yet are still Muslims. That makes it custom, and custom is not "religion".

In other Muslim countries, the Burka is custom. It is not law. The Koran doesn't call for that specific necessity - it's more of a Bedouin custom than Sharia Law.

Let's look at Christianity, and the following 76 Things Banned in Leviticus (and their penalties). I'm guessing Greater Gilead is a Christian, and I'm willing to wager that that none of his family (and whatever congregation he belongs to) follow as many as 25 of these "laws". That would mean that people who proclaim the Old Testament to be "Holy Law" have a fluid definition of law.

Does their freedom of religion allow them to ignore whichever laws they find inconvenient? If so, why single out FGM as one that has to be permitted? Why not spend more time outlawing "Cutting your hair at the sides (19:27)" or "Bringing unauthorised fire before God (10:1)"? At least we can cite case law for those.

Argue against that, Greater Gilead!

[Bears Armed]

You're ignoring perhaps the most pertinent question: "is it law, or is it custom?" I'm betting that FGM is custom, not law. It's common in some Islamic nations, but not in all of them. That means there are devout Muslims who do not practice this act, and yet are still Muslims. That makes it custom, and custom is not "religion".

In other Muslim countries, the Burka is custom. It is not law. The Koran doesn't call for that specific necessity - it's more of a Bedouin custom than Sharia Law.

OOC
Ninaj'd. that's what I was going to say. As far as Islam is concerned, anyway, FGM is a cultural practice of some ethnic groups among that faith's followers but is not a religious commandment.
Whether the same is true for any 'tribal' religions that also follow the practice, where "cultural group" and "religious community" are more closely identical might be a different matter, though...
However, even with the Bears' strong belief in 'Freedom of Worship', I/they aren't going to argue in favour of legalizing such a harmful process.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

Does male circumsicion hurt? Yes.
What are the benefits? Dont know, but its tradition.
Why should we stop the FGM, it is part of the tradition!

You are probably being sarcastic, but I agree with what you just said.
If male circumcision is not torture, neither is female.

Male circumcision is not sewing the urethra shut and removing the entire head of the penis, and all done with an non-sterile blunt instrument, leaving only a minuscule hole to pass urine and other bodily fluids through like a bloody straw.

[Godular]

Can a non-member even draft legislation?

[Wrapper]

Can a non-member even draft legislation?

Sure.

[Godular]

Can a non-member even draft legislation?

Sure.

Huh. Requires a second to go forward or something? The FAQ is hard to navigate.

[Thyerata]

Sure.

Huh. Requires a second to go forward or something? The FAQ is hard to navigate.

You'd need a puppet in the WA to actually submit it, or the author would need to join before submitting the draft

[Imperium Anglorum]

Huh. Requires a second to go forward or something? The FAQ is hard to navigate.

Drafting is different from proposing. In the same way an MP's staff can draft legislation, only the MP can propose legislation to Parliament. More succinctly,

1. Anyone can draft legislation, since that is literally putting words to paper (or text to computer).
2. Only WA members with more than two endorsements can propose legislation.
3. Proposals with approvals from more than 6 per cent of delegates are moved to the floor, becoming a Resolution At Vote.
4. Resolutions At Vote become GA Resolutions if they pass with a majority of votes, of which each WA member has one and Delegates have N + 1, where N is their number of endorsements.

[Greater Gilead]

((OOC: I don't think it's a coincidence that a nation called "Greater Gilead" is writing a proposal of this nature. I wouldn't take this seriously.))

It is not a coincidence. And it's not a joke.

...GAR #114 restricts freedom of religion. Argue against that, leftists!

OOC: Reading this thread, I feel like any breath expended on you is simply wasted, but sure, I'll bite.

An individual right, including one person's freedom to practice his religion, is not absolute or infinite. Individual A's freedom of behavior ends where that behavior affects Individual B without B's fully informed consent. If this were not so, anyone could do anything to anyone else and civil society would be impossible. Literally the entire political spectrum, from totalitarians to anarchists, understands this - even if you do not.

QED

Next!

By making the choice to stay in said religion or nation, you basically agree to their laws and customs. And there are always ways out. Somehow. Always.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

OOC: Reading this thread, I feel like any breath expended on you is simply wasted, but sure, I'll bite.

An individual right, including one person's freedom to practice his religion, is not absolute or infinite. Individual A's freedom of behavior ends where that behavior affects Individual B without B's fully informed consent. If this were not so, anyone could do anything to anyone else and civil society would be impossible. Literally the entire political spectrum, from totalitarians to anarchists, understands this - even if you do not.

QED

Next!

By making the choice to stay in said religion or nation, you basically agree to their laws and customs.

That's not a "choice." Especially not for the children this is done to. If your father claimed your religion says you have to cut half your dick off, I doubt you'd see much of a "choice" there.

And there are always ways out. Somehow. Always.

Uh, no. When escapees who don't make it are brought back and punished, that's not "a way out" by any reasonable standard. If people who refuse are treated any other way than with a polite goodbye, that's basically North Korea writ small.

This repeal is shit. Contrary to your response to Auralia, I have to imagine you're just trolling.

Anyway....

I said 'Next!'

[Greater Gilead]

By making the choice to stay in said religion or nation, you basically agree to their laws and customs.

That's not a "choice." Especially not for the children this is done to. If your father claimed your religion says you have to cut half your dick off, I doubt you'd see much of a "choice" there.

And there are always ways out. Somehow. Always.

Uh, no. When escapees who don't make it are brought back and punished, that's not "a way out" by any reasonable standard. If people who refuse are treated any other way than with a polite goodbye, that's basically North Korea writ small.

This repeal is shit. Contrary to your response to Auralia, I have to imagine you're just trolling.

Anyway....

I said 'Next!'

I am not trolling. Seriously.

Also, you are thinking narrow mindedly on "way out". Think outside the box. There are four main ways out of Gilead. Only one is escape to another country.

Also, there is benefit from FGM. In two ways. 1. It help keep girls pure. 2. If it is a threatened punishment, you'll behave, right? See "redemption" in my Glossary.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

That's not a "choice." Especially not for the children this is done to. If your father claimed your religion says you have to cut half your dick off, I doubt you'd see much of a "choice" there.


Uh, no. When escapees who don't make it are brought back and punished, that's not "a way out" by any reasonable standard. If people who refuse are treated any other way than with a polite goodbye, that's basically North Korea writ small.

This repeal is shit. Contrary to your response to Auralia, I have to imagine you're just trolling.

Anyway....

I said 'Next!'

I am not trolling. Seriously.

Also, you are thinking narrow mindedly on "way out". Think outside the box. There are four main ways out of Gilead. Only one is escape to another country.

Also, there is benefit from FGM. In two ways. 1. It help keep girls pure. 2. If it is a threatened punishment, you'll behave, right? See "redemption" in my Glossary.

We oppose on principle the sewing shut of the entire female genitalia, we oppose on principle the forcible removal of the clitoris by blunt, nonsterile instruments which have no place near the insides of a human body, executed in large parts of the world by clergymen who haven't the foggiest of sterile operating environments or actual surgical procedures, we oppose on principle the vast amounts of suffering of girls, not even aged 10 forced to pass urine through a hole the width of a drinking straw. We oppose as always, your horrid ideas of religious freedom.

[Separatist Peoples]

"'Purity' is not a sufficient normative goal to justify mutilation. Purity is overrated, anyway."

[Thyerata]

Oh Jesus, the ambassador is a religious nut job, and our personal incinerator seems to be busy today.

*Matthew rapidly defenestrates the ambassador, and puts the draft into the delegation's incinerator*

That's out the way. Now, on to something more sensible.

[Serrus]

That's not a "choice." Especially not for the children this is done to. If your father claimed your religion says you have to cut half your dick off, I doubt you'd see much of a "choice" there.


Uh, no. When escapees who don't make it are brought back and punished, that's not "a way out" by any reasonable standard. If people who refuse are treated any other way than with a polite goodbye, that's basically North Korea writ small.

This repeal is shit. Contrary to your response to Auralia, I have to imagine you're just trolling.

Anyway....

I said 'Next!'

I am not trolling. Seriously.

Also, you are thinking narrow mindedly on "way out". Think outside the box. There are four main ways out of Gilead. Only one is escape to another country.

Also, there is benefit from FGM. In two ways. 1. It help keep girls pure. 2. If it is a threatened punishment, you'll behave, right? See "redemption" in my Glossary.

You horrify me sir.
I have no words to express the variety of sick/angry/scared you made me feel.
I need a hug now.

[Lanian Empire]

I am not trolling. Seriously.

Also, you are thinking narrow mindedly on "way out". Think outside the box. There are four main ways out of Gilead. Only one is escape to another country.

Also, there is benefit from FGM. In two ways. 1. It help keep girls pure. 2. If it is a threatened punishment, you'll behave, right? See "redemption" in my Glossary.

You horrify me sir.
I have no words to express the variety of sick/angry/scared you made me feel.
I need a hug now.

*gives hug* don't let the fanaticism scare you. That's what they rely on.

[Greater Gilead]

I am not trolling. Seriously.

Also, you are thinking narrow mindedly on "way out". Think outside the box. There are four main ways out of Gilead. Only one is escape to another country.

Also, there is benefit from FGM. In two ways. 1. It help keep girls pure. 2. If it is a threatened punishment, you'll behave, right? See "redemption" in my Glossary.

You horrify me sir.
I have no words to express the variety of sick/angry/scared you made me feel.
I need a hug now.

Guess what? I am sickened by liberals murdering babys. Get over it. And I'm not changing my nation for liberals trying to force their veiws on others. We are not trying that, we just want the ability to make our own choices.

[Godular]

You horrify me sir.
I have no words to express the variety of sick/angry/scared you made me feel.
I need a hug now.

Guess what? I am sickened by liberals murdering babys. Get over it. And I'm not changing my nation for liberals trying to force their veiws on others. We are not trying that, we just want the ability to make our own choices.

Which is given, in that women are allowed to make their own choices.

[Greater Gilead]

Guess what? I am sickened by liberals murdering babys. Get over it. And I'm not changing my nation for liberals trying to force their veiws on others. We are not trying that, we just want the ability to make our own choices.

Which is given, in that women are allowed to make their own choices.

Our own choices as a nation!

[Godular]

Which is given, in that women are allowed to make their own choices.

Our own choices as a nation!

That's just silly and hypocritical.