[PASSED] Promotion of Recycling

[Greifenburg]

Neville: The usage of what, Ambassador?

"The usage of materials that where recovered through recycling." Schreiner strokes his chin thoughtfully. "Perhaps the wording needs some work and clarification..."

Fairburn: Speaking of recycling, was the paper that this proposal was written on recycled?

"It was indeed, Ambassador. Recycling is an important aspect in my country. As such, my government has adopted an extensive programme of measures to increase the usage of recycled paper in governmental offices and ministries to 90%."

"I, as ambassador of Versilia to the WA, fully support this draft. The lack of recycling in the world is most troubling, and whilst it is compulsory in my home country and the one which I represent in this organisation, I believe it must be promoted everywhere. Supported." Confidently states the Versilian ambassador.

"Thank you for your support. We certainly hope that this proposal will turn out successful."

[Araraukar]

OOC: You still need to add "unless such is already in use" to any clause that mandates research into or the creating of recycling programs. Because the law does what the law says it does, if you say a recycling program must be created, one must be created, whether or not the nation already has one.

[Greifenburg]

OOC: You still need to add "unless such is already in use" to any clause that mandates research into or the creating of recycling programs. Because the law does what the law says it does, if you say a recycling program must be created, one must be created, whether or not the nation already has one.

OOC: Understood. It is added now.

[States of Glory WA Office]

Fairburn: Speaking of recycling, was the paper that this proposal was written on recycled?

"It was indeed, Ambassador. Recycling is an important aspect in my country. As such, my government has adopted an extensive programme of measures to increase the usage of recycled paper in governmental offices and ministries to 90%."

Fairburn: Only 90%? Bunch of tree-killers.

[Greifenburg]

Fairburn: Only 90%? Bunch of tree-killers.

"Yes, 90%. While we would love to introduce a 100% rate, it is at the moment unrealistic for us to implement. Nontheless, we are working on it. Now, if you're done insulting my country, back to the topic at hand?"

[Excidium Planetis]

OOC: You still need to add "unless such is already in use" to any clause that mandates research into or the creating of recycling programs. Because the law does what the law says it does, if you say a recycling program must be created, one must be created, whether or not the nation already has one.

OOC:

I think we're disagreeing on what the "requires" actually requires.

In your view, it requires nations to have a "governmental body", period.

In my view it requires to have a "governmental body that inspects a thing", and thus it's surplus to requirement if the thing to inspect doesn't exist.

It's like if you're required to have impartial election officials to keep an eye on the voting process. If you don't have elections, you don't need election officials, impartial or not.

To paraphrase your own words, if you don't need to recycle anything, you don't need a recycling program to be created.

[Araraukar]

OOC:

*snip*

OOC: Thank you very much for asking for permission to post something I wrote in a TG a while back on something else entirely. *sarcasm*

For some context, to others, we were debating various things about the requirements of existing legislation, which included (to me) weird things such as EP's suggestion that the highway counts as a workplace for an ambulance crew while in transit from an accident site to a hospital, and whether or not you can be a nation if you don't have separate officials inspecting things that don't exist (in context of the PPU hivemind).

To paraphrase your own words, if you don't need to recycle anything, you don't need a recycling program to be created.

Which happily was not what I said at all on this thread. I asked about a nation that already has a recycling program in place and which recycles everything possible already, not a nation that didn't need to recycle anything.

[Excidium Planetis]

OOC:

OOC: Thank you very much for asking for permission to post something I wrote in a TG a while back on something else entirely. *sarcasm*

Oh, please, it's not like you are innocent of posting contents from my TGs.

Besides:

OOC: I understand why you did this, but revealing private TG's is not cool. You should know to file a GHR by now.

It isn't? That's news to me, I have revealed private TGs where the contents were relevant to the topic and it was not a matter that the author wanted to keep secret (actually, Araraukar might be the only one who has asked me not to reveal a TG).

See: Making Legislation Funny Again & The Best Condemnation I Ever Wrote.

I was not aware you wanted that line of argument to be a secret, especially since it started from a public discussion.

(Side note, it was a pain in the neck to find that discussion, but I found it, and noticed you said:

(Johan Milkus is a private citizen working for the person that is the nation of PPU, doesn't apply. )

But when I pointed out that Milkus was an employee in PPU you said he did not work for PPU... seems like your RP very conveniently changed for that discussion?)

For some context, to others, we were debating various things about the requirements of existing legislation, which included ... whether or not you can be a nation if you don't have separate officials inspecting things that don't exist (in context of the PPU hivemind).

That last part is particularly relevant.

You argued in TG that because there were no worksites to inspect, PPU did not need to establish a body to inspect worksites despite being required to do so.

Now here you argue that even if there is nothing to recycle (because everything is being recycled already) nations must establish a recycling program because that's what the law says.

You can't have your cake and eat it too. Are nations required to establish unnecessary government programs, or are they not?

Which happily was not what I said at all on this thread. I asked about a nation that already has a recycling program in place and which recycles everything possible already, not a nation that didn't need to recycle anything.

They are the same thing. A nation which recycles 100% has nothing to recycle. If it had anything for the new program to recycle, it obviously is not recycling 100%.

So, tell me... if a resolution says that a government program must be created to do something, and your nation does not have that thing for it to do, must your nation establish the program?

[Araraukar]

(OOC post because, well, it's fairly obvious.)

(Side note, it was a pain in the neck to find that discussion, but I found it, and noticed you said:

(Johan Milkus is a private citizen working for the person that is the nation of PPU, doesn't apply. )

But when I pointed out that Milkus was an employee in PPU you said he did not work for PPU... seems like your RP very conveniently changed for that discussion?)

If I got paid by the city (or municipality) to mown the lawns at the local cemetery (a common summer job for kids over here), I'd be working for the church that owns the cemetery, taking orders from them and mowing lawns when and where they wanted me to, but I'd be employed by the city while doing so. (Plus people asking questions about RP helps to clarify that RP even to the person writing it, and you know that. )

You're welcome to re-open the debate if you like, now that the hivemind has actual land area to work on, though be warned that I'll just be posting you a picture of a seedling to direct your complaints at.

Now here you argue that even if there is nothing to recycle (because everything is being recycled already) nations must establish a recycling program because that's what the law says.

I don't get how you get "nothing to recycle" from "everything is being recycled". I get "all to recycle" from that...

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Sure you can. See GenSec and ideology bans rule.

Are nations required to establish unnecessary government programs, or are they not?

Probably. And that's a big enough probability to justify fighting against such wordings.

They are the same thing. A nation which recycles 100% has nothing to recycle. If it had anything for the new program to recycle, it obviously is not recycling 100%.

Never said 100%. Said "recycling everything they can/everything possible", which in non-magical setting is not 100%.

So, tell me... if a resolution says that a government program must be created to do something, and your nation does not have that thing for it to do, must your nation establish the program?

In the context of proposals being under debate, yes, and thus such wording should come with the qualifier "unless already done/in use" or similar.

[Excidium Planetis]

If I got paid by the city (or municipality) to mown the lawns at the local cemetery (a common summer job for kids over here), I'd be working for the church that owns the cemetery, taking orders from them and mowing lawns when and where they wanted me to, but I'd be employed by the city while doing so. (Plus people asking questions about RP helps to clarify that RP even to the person writing it, and you know that. )

The problem is that if you are Milkus in this analogy, and the city is Araraukar (your employer) and the church is PPU, you aren't working in the cemetary. You specifically said Milkus did not do his work on PPU soil. You are working in a national park, as an employee of the city. Therefore you do not "work for" the church.

It's a really flawed analogy.

I don't get how you get "nothing to recycle" from "everything is being recycled". I get "all to recycle" from that...

I don't see how "everything is X" can mean anything other than "nothing is not X". If everything possible is recycled, there is nothing that left that is possible to recycle.

Are nations required to establish unnecessary government programs, or are they not?

Probably. And that's a big enough probability to justify fighting against such wordings.

If so, then why would PPU not probably be required to establish an unnecessary government body?

Never said 100%. Said "recycling everything they can/everything possible", which in non-magical setting is not 100%.

Theoretically, because matter is not destroyed, all matter in the universe can be recycled. So everything possible means all matter in the universe is recycled.

Even speaking on MT level terms, it doesn't really matter. If everything that could realistically be recycled is being recycled, there is nothing to recycle. Sure, there are some thing not being recycled, but because it isn't feasible those things are not things to recycle. Imagine it were, in all practicality, impossible to recycle anything. Obviously there is nothing to recycle, even if there are things not being recycled.

Recycling everything possible necessarily means that it is impossible to recycle anything else. Therefore, nothing to recycle.

[Jarish Inyo]

The WA doesn't actually require a member nation to establish a welfare system (the resolution that creates it also makes it possible not to have a welfare system)

Ambassador Blackbourne smacks down a copy of Disability Welfare Act.

DIRECTS nations to create a system, or systems, of welfare to assist those who are disabled;

Nor does it require members nations to create inspection teams.

Blackbourne throws a copy of Workplace Safety Standards Act on top of Disability Welfare Act.

Requires that each nation ensure that within it there exist at least one adequately funded governmental body that inspects work sites and ensures compliance with this act throughout its territory.

"I suggest you read up on World Assembly legislation, Ambassador. Your nation appears to be in noncompliance with at least two resolutions."

You might want to look at the next requirement.

DEMANDS that those who have been rendered disabled, as defined by this resolution, be granted adequate benefit(s) from or by the aforementioned system(s) which equate to, at the least, the minimum amount required to attain the same level of well-being and dignity a working, able person would otherwise be entitled to enjoy;

In the Empire, a working able person is only entitled to what they can afford on the pay their employer gives them. And in the Empire, there is no minimum wage, welfare or free healthcare. So, said disability welfare is dependent on if a nation has a welfare system or a guaranteed minimum wage.

As for the Workplace Safety Standards Act, it doesn't actually require a nation to create inspection teams. It doesn't even define what is adequately funding for said governmental body. Or how often an inspection takes place. Having a minor government employee take a five minute walk through counts as an inspection.

And I ensure you, its more then two resolutions we are in noncompliance with. It's at least three. We are not in compliance with the the one on international adoption. It was not written with the needs or the safety of the children in mind. Just making it easy for people to adopt.

We would be in noncompliance with this if it was to a ass. We do not agree with

3. Requires its members to encourage participation in recycling and the usage of through recycling recovered materials with the means of legislation, incentives and/or penalization;

We will not pass legislation on something that is not an issue in the Empire. Nor will we give incentives to or penalize companies.

[Fauxia]

"We believed this would be a bunch of radical eco-green insanity, but actually, we probably support. However, the author is advised to change "its members" in clause 3 to "member states" or "member nations."

"Our support hinges on whether we think it is fair to force member nations to do this. It may well be."

[Araraukar]

The problem is that if you are Milkus in this analogy, and the city is Araraukar (your employer) and the church is PPU, you aren't working in the cemetary. You specifically said Milkus did not do his work on PPU soil. You are working in a national park, as an employee of the city. Therefore you do not "work for" the church.

It's a really flawed analogy.

OOC: *shrug* The church would still be the one to give orders about what to do, when to do it, where to do it. You're doing their work for them, hence you're working for them. Just not getting paid by them.

Not that any of that matters here at all.

I don't see how "everything is X" can mean anything other than "nothing is not X". If everything possible is recycled, there is nothing that left that is possible to recycle.

Or, at least, nothing left that is reasonable to recycle.

If so, then why would PPU not probably be required to establish an unnecessary government body?

Theoretically, because matter is not destroyed, all matter in the universe can be recycled. So everything possible means all matter in the universe is recycled.

Exactly why I said "recycling everything they can/everything possible".

Recycling everything possible necessarily means that it is impossible to recycle anything else. Therefore, nothing to recycle.

And a proposal mandating a recycling program be created and things recycled would still require a recycling program to be created and things recycled.

[Greifenburg]

We will not pass legislation on something that is not an issue in the Empire. Nor will we give incentives to or penalize companies.

"If it passes you'd still have to implement the messures. Compliance is not optional in the World Assembly. You can, of course, vote against it, but you have not given reason why the proposal is not worthy consideration."

"We believed this would be a bunch of radical eco-green insanity, but actually, we probably support. However, the author is advised to change "its members" in clause 3 to "member states" or "member nations."

"We will introduce that change of wording, it does seem to sound better. I would also like to thank you for considering the proposal despite that initial belief."

"Our support hinges on whether we think it is fair to force member nations to do this. It may well be."

"Personally, I think it is very well fair, especially since the proposal acknowledges eventual technological and economical burdens. We are not trying to impose impossible demands, but to gently push our fellow nations into the, in our eyes, right direction. As for the heavily discussed clause 2, my office has revised it slightly to account for existing recycling programmes."

Ambassador Schreiner points out the made change.

2. Mandates:

a) the introduction of recycling as a means of waste reduction in all member nations in accordance to their technological and economical capabilities, unless such is already introduced and active;
b) the implementation of an easily accessible system for the collection of recyclable materials and salvageable objects in said nations, unless such is already in place;

"We hope this is acceptable. I'd also like to throw in that if a nation recycles everything, it has a recycling programme and infrastructure of some sort and would now be in compliance with the proposal."

[Fauxia]

We will not pass legislation on something that is not an issue in the Empire. Nor will we give incentives to or penalize companies.

"If it passes you'd still have to implement the messures. Compliance is not optional in the World Assembly. You can, of course, vote against it, but you have not given reason why the proposal is not worthy consideration."

"We believed this would be a bunch of radical eco-green insanity, but actually, we probably support. However, the author is advised to change "its members" in clause 3 to "member states" or "member nations."

"We will introduce that change of wording, it does seem to sound better. I would also like to thank you for considering the proposal despite that initial belief."

"Our support hinges on whether we think it is fair to force member nations to do this. It may well be."

"Personally, I think it is very well fair, especially since the proposal acknowledges eventual technological and economical burdens. We are not trying to impose impossible demands, but to gently push our fellow nations into the, in our eyes, right direction. As for the heavily discussed clause 2, my office has revised it slightly to account for existing recycling programmes."

Ambassador Schreiner points out the made change.

2. Mandates:

a) the introduction of recycling as a means of waste reduction in all member nations in accordance to their technological and economical capabilities, unless such is already introduced and active;
b) the implementation of an easily accessible system for the collection of recyclable materials and salvageable objects in said nations, unless such is already in place;

"We hope this is acceptable. I'd also like to throw in that if a nation recycles everything, it has a recycling programme and infrastructure of some sort and would now be in compliance with the proposal."

"It looks acceptable. Recycling is basically just common sense."

[Excidium Planetis]

In the Empire, a working able person is only entitled to what they can afford on the pay their employer gives them.

"Timmons, begin recording." Blackbourne orders his guard, as he brings up a copy of Minimum Standard of Living Act.

And in the Empire, there is no minimum wage, welfare or free healthcare. So, said disability welfare is dependent on if a nation has a welfare system or a guaranteed minimum wage.

"Timmons," Blackbourne calls to his guard again, "take a note that the ambassador here is providing evidence of noncompliance with GA#344, 176, 2, and most likely 97 as well."

As for the Workplace Safety Standards Act, it doesn't actually require a nation to create inspection teams. It doesn't even define what is adequately funding for said governmental body. Or how often an inspection takes place. Having a minor government employee take a five minute walk through counts as an inspection.

"I find your lack of good faith disturbing." Blackbourne replies.

And I ensure you, its more then two resolutions we are in noncompliance with. It's at least three. We are not in compliance with the the one on international adoption. It was not written with the needs or the safety of the children in mind. Just making it easy for people to adopt.

"Timmons, note the time. Open admission of noncompliance with more than two extant resolutions."

We would be in noncompliance with this if it was to pass.
...
We will not pass legislation on something that is not an issue in the Empire. Nor will we give incentives to or penalize companies.

"Ambassador, firstly, this is being submitted to the Compliance Commission as evidence of your noncompliance with a number of WA resolutions.

"Secondly, there is now no longer any reason to consider your arguments as having any weight in this chamber. Excidium Planetis will not bend to non-compliant nations, and I hope the author of this bill rightly dismisses your concerns. Those who do not obey the law shall not be heeded when writing it."

[States of Glory WA Office]

And I ensure you, its more then two resolutions we are in noncompliance with. It's at least three. We are not in compliance with the the one on international adoption. It was not written with the needs or the safety of the children in mind. Just making it easy for people to adopt.

Fairburn: Due to this blatant admission of noncompliance by the nation of Jarish Inyo, all diplomatic relations between Jarish Inyo and the Commonwealth of States of Glory are hereby terminated.

[Jarish Inyo]

In the Empire, a working able person is only entitled to what they can afford on the pay their employer gives them.

"Timmons, begin recording." Blackbourne orders his guard, as he brings up a copy of Minimum Standard of Living Act.

And in the Empire, there is no minimum wage, welfare or free healthcare. So, said disability welfare is dependent on if a nation has a welfare system or a guaranteed minimum wage.

"Timmons," Blackbourne calls to his guard again, "take a note that the ambassador here is providing evidence of noncompliance with GA#344, 176, 2, and most likely 97 as well."

As for the Workplace Safety Standards Act, it doesn't actually require a nation to create inspection teams. It doesn't even define what is adequately funding for said governmental body. Or how often an inspection takes place. Having a minor government employee take a five minute walk through counts as an inspection.

"I find your lack of good faith disturbing." Blackbourne replies.

And I ensure you, its more then two resolutions we are in noncompliance with. It's at least three. We are not in compliance with the the one on international adoption. It was not written with the needs or the safety of the children in mind. Just making it easy for people to adopt.

"Timmons, note the time. Open admission of noncompliance with more than two extant resolutions."

We would be in noncompliance with this if it was to pass.
...
We will not pass legislation on something that is not an issue in the Empire. Nor will we give incentives to or penalize companies.

"Ambassador, firstly, this is being submitted to the Compliance Commission as evidence of your noncompliance with a number of WA resolutions.

"Secondly, there is now no longer any reason to consider your arguments as having any weight in this chamber. Excidium Planetis will not bend to non-compliant nations, and I hope the author of this bill rightly dismisses your concerns. Those who do not obey the law shall not be heeded when writing it."

You might want to reread the Minimum Standard of Living Act. It does not require minimum wage, welfare or free healthcare. Just requires minimum levels of access to food and water, clothing, housing, sanitation, appropriate utilities, and appropriate transportation necessary for a person to remain reasonably healthy, safe and productive in a given member state. Not free money, welfare or free healthcare. So a tent, fishing pole, outhouse, communal water supply and some clothes are all a nation needs to compliance. Utilities and transportation is not necessary for a person to remain reasonably healthy, safe and productive. So, the Empire is in compliance with

And as long as we grant a disabled person with the same things that an abled body working person is entitled to, we are in compliance with Disability Welfare Act.

Quality in Health Services doesn't require free healthcare. So again, the Empire is in compliance.

Fairburn: Due to this blatant admission of noncompliance by the nation of Jarish Inyo, all diplomatic relations between Jarish Inyo and the Commonwealth of States of Glory are hereby terminated.

We had diplomatic relations? That's news to me.

Greifenburg, compliance is always optional. The WA has no actual way of forcing compliance. There are ways to be noncompliant while being in compliance if one is creative.

[Fauxia]

"Timmons, begin recording." Blackbourne orders his guard, as he brings up a copy of Minimum Standard of Living Act.


"Timmons," Blackbourne calls to his guard again, "take a note that the ambassador here is providing evidence of noncompliance with GA#344, 176, 2, and most likely 97 as well."


"I find your lack of good faith disturbing." Blackbourne replies.


"Timmons, note the time. Open admission of noncompliance with more than two extant resolutions."


"Ambassador, firstly, this is being submitted to the Compliance Commission as evidence of your noncompliance with a number of WA resolutions.

"Secondly, there is now no longer any reason to consider your arguments as having any weight in this chamber. Excidium Planetis will not bend to non-compliant nations, and I hope the author of this bill rightly dismisses your concerns. Those who do not obey the law shall not be heeded when writing it."

You might want to reread the Minimum Standard of Living Act. It does not require minimum wage, welfare or free healthcare. Just requires minimum levels of access to food and water, clothing, housing, sanitation, appropriate utilities, and appropriate transportation necessary for a person to remain reasonably healthy, safe and productive in a given member state. Not free money, welfare or free healthcare. So a tent, fishing pole, outhouse, communal water supply and some clothes are all a nation needs to compliance. Utilities and transportation is not necessary for a person to remain reasonably healthy, safe and productive. So, the Empire is in compliance with

And as long as we grant a disabled person with the same things that an abled body working person is entitled to, we are in compliance with Disability Welfare Act.

Quality in Health Services doesn't require free healthcare. So again, the Empire is in compliance.

Fairburn: Due to this blatant admission of noncompliance by the nation of Jarish Inyo, all diplomatic relations between Jarish Inyo and the Commonwealth of States of Glory are hereby terminated.

We had diplomatic relations? That's news to me.

Greifenburg, compliance is always optional. The WA has no actual way of forcing compliance. There are ways to be noncompliant while being in compliance if one is creative.

"A separate resolution does require Universal Healthcare.

"1) The health services shall constitute separate systems in each & every nation, organized according to the following guidelines:

a) Full health services coverage;
b) Community participation;
c) Cooperation between nations that are not at a declared state of war amongst themselves."

I agree with the Ambassador from Jarish Inyo, however, that GA #344 does not require a minimum wage, or a welfare system. Just basic things such as running water. If you define that as welfare, fine, but I would not.

176 definitely makes sure there is a welfare system for the disabled."

[Greifenburg]

Greifenburg, compliance is always optional. The WA has no actual way of forcing compliance. There are ways to be noncompliant while being in compliance if one is creative.

"First off, my name is not Greifenburg. It is Robert Schreiner, and I am the Ambassador OF the City and Republic of Greifenburg. It is a shame that you don't even take the time to get that right. Secondly, being creative with compliance is not the same as noncompliance. There is no blatant noncompliance, since the World Assembly does have the power to override non-compliant legislation of its member nations. Abusing a loop hole is a completely different story."

Ambassador Schreiner looks slightly disapointed.

"Since you don't seem to have any legitimate points to make and rather prefer to proudly proclaim possible future noncompliance, we see no point to further discuss the proposal with you."

[Araraukar]

"First off, my name is not Greifenburg. It is Robert Schreiner, and I am the Ambassador OF the City and Republic of Greifenburg."

OOC: Which you might want to put into your forum siggy, since otherwise many/most people will refer to your character as "Greifenburg ambassador" or something like that.

[Excidium Planetis]

You might want to reread the Minimum Standard of Living Act. ...

"Minimum Standard of Living Act entitles citizens of your nation to a minimum standard of living. You claimed that your citizens were entitled to nothing more than they could afford, which is evidence of noncompliance with GA#344." Blackbourne replies, mostly for the record, because he no longer had any desire to sway the Jarish Inyo delegation.

And as long as we grant a disabled person with the same things that an abled body working person is entitled to, we are in compliance with Disability Welfare Act.

"Which is a minimum standard of living. You must provide the disabled with welfare sufficient to reach that level. Unlike GA#344, GA#176 specifies welfare specifically as the means to attain the quality of life they are entitled to."

Quality in Health Services doesn't require free healthcare. So again, the Empire is in compliance.

"It requires nations to provide full health services coverage to, at a minimum, those who cannot afford health services." Blackbourne replies. "I cannot imagine that every single person in your nation can afford health services."

Greifenburg, compliance is always optional. The WA has no actual way of forcing compliance. There are ways to be noncompliant while being in compliance if one is creative.

"Creative compliance is not good faith compliance. Good faith compliance is required by GA#2, thus, your nation is in full noncompliance with GA#2, as well as all the other resolutions I have specified." Blackbourne finishes. "Lastly, Compliance is Mandatory, it is simply not enforced. We will change this."

[Araraukar]

Greifenburg, compliance is always optional. The WA has no actual way of forcing compliance. There are ways to be noncompliant while being in compliance if one is creative.

"Creative compliance is not good faith compliance. Good faith compliance is required by GA#2, thus, your nation is in full noncompliance with GA#2, as well as all the other resolutions I have specified." Blackbourne finishes. "Lastly, Compliance is Mandatory, it is simply not enforced. We will change this."

OOC: Also, creative compliance doesn't mean non-compliance, it means complying with the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law.

[Greifenburg]

OOC: Which you might want to put into your forum siggy, since otherwise many/most people will refer to your character as "Greifenburg ambassador" or something like that.

OOC: Fair enough.

[Excidium Planetis]

OOC: Also, creative compliance doesn't mean non-compliance, it means complying with the letter of the law rather than the spirit of the law.

OOC:
Which is not in good faith (I hope even you do not argue that the deliberate loophole finding is not following the law in good faith). And therefore is not compliant with the letter of GA#2, which explicitly requires nations to adhere to all international law in good faith. Thus, creative compliance violates GA#2 both in letter and in spirit, and is therefore noncompliance.