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[Discussion] Writing Proposals in Middle English?

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Excidium Planetis
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[Discussion] Writing Proposals in Middle English?

Postby Excidium Planetis » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:18 pm

Made new discussion to avoid thread jack.

States of Glory WA Office wrote:OOC: Interesting, but irrelevant. If you want to write a proposal in Middle English, though, then go ahead. :lol:

OOC
This raises an interesting question: Can proposals be written in Middle English?

The format section of the rules states that
Language: Proposals must use understandable English. Conventional legalese and Latin terms are acceptable within reason. Proposals written in incomprehensible English or a foreign language will be deleted.


Middle English is definitely English, no doubt. But is it understandable or incomprehensible English?

At first glance, despite being strange to a modern reader, I would say that Middle English is indeed understandable. Take a look at the first few lines of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales:
Whan that aprill with his shoures soote
The droghte of march hath perced to the roote,
And bathed every veyne in swich licour
Of which vertu engendred is the flour;


If you just assume pretty much every word is misspelled, the only real incomprehensible words "soote" and "swich". The translation I am reading renders "soote" as "sweet with fruit" and "swich licour" as "liquor that has power".

Difficult to understand, yes, but not incomprehensible.

Of course, I do not advise anyone to write proposals in Middle English. But I would argue that it might be legal.

Just something to think about.
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Postby Lancaster of Wessex » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:22 pm

I'm not in the WA so I don't have a horse in this race as it were, but this seems absolutely pointless; what would writing in Middle English or any type of English other than standard, "normal practice" English achieve? It only adds character quality, which is irrelevant to the passing of resolutions, and despite it being fairly easy to understand for MOST users, may still give troubles to those whose mother tongue is not English.
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Postby Sciongrad » Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:31 pm

Not an official opinion, but I'd say with 99.9% certainty that proposals written in middle English would not be legal. Spoken Middle English and modern English are not mutually intelligible and Middle English can take considerable effort to read.

This is a passage from Gawain and the Green Knight, written in the 14th century. Note that some texts in Middle English still used the ash, thorn, eth, and wynn characters:

SIÞEN þe sege and þe assaut watz sesed at Troye,
þe bor3 brittened and brent to bronde3 and askez,
þe tulk þat þe trammes of tresoun þer wro3t
Watz tried for his tricherie, þe trewest on erþe:
Hit watz Ennias þe athel, and his highe kynde,
þat siþen depreced prouinces, and patrounes bicome
Welne3e of al þe wele in þe west iles.

This is another passage from the Canterbury Tales:

That I was of hir felaweshipe anon,
And made forward erly for to ryse,
To take oure wey ther as I yow devyse.
But nathelees, whil I have tyme and space,
Er that I ferther in this tale pace,
Me thynketh it acordaunt to resoun
To telle yow al the condicioun
Of ech of hem, so as it semed me,
And whiche they weren, and of what degree,
And eek in what array that they were inne;
And at a knyght than wol I first bigynne.

And a sample from the Ormulum:

Forrþrihht anan se time comm
þatt ure Drihhtin wollde
ben borenn i þiss middellærd
forr all mannkinne nede
he chæs himm sone kinnessmenn
all swillke summ he wollde
and whær he wollde borenn ben
he chæs all att hiss wille.

If you can understand that, you can write a proposal in middle English.
Last edited by Sciongrad on Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:34 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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No. /thread
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Postby Excidium Planetis » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:13 pm

Lancaster of Wessex wrote:I'm not in the WA so I don't have a horse in this race as it were, but this seems absolutely pointless; what would writing in Middle English or any type of English other than standard, "normal practice" English achieve?

Well, if you roleplayed as a 14th century nation, it would be consistent with your roleplay.

Other than that, not much. Aesthetic, maybe?

Sciongrad wrote:Not an official opinion, but I'd say with 99.9% certainty that proposals written in middle English would not be legal. Spoken Middle English and modern English are not mutually intelligible and Middle English can take considerable effort to read.

1) Spoken matters not at all. Resolutions are not submitted as audio files, but as text. The text is understandable.
2) "Considerable effort to read" does not equate to incomprehensibility. IA's trill obligation proposal takes considerable effort to read, it is not incomprehensible. For the record, I don't think making resolutions considerably difficult to read is necessarily a good idea, but it isn't illegal.

This is a passage from Gawain and the Green Knight, written in the 14th century. Note that some texts in Middle English still used the ash, thorn, eth, and wynn characters:
SIÞEN þe sege and þe assaut watz sesed at Troye,
þe bor3 brittened and brent to bronde3 and askez,
þe tulk þat þe trammes of tresoun þer wro3t
Watz tried for his tricherie, þe trewest on erþe:
Hit watz Ennias þe athel, and his highe kynde,
þat siþen depreced prouinces, and patrounes bicome
Welne3e of al þe wele in þe west iles.

So what Middle English you use matters. I contend that late Middle English, written in standard characters, is understandable enough to be readable.

That I was of hir felaweshipe anon,
And made forward erly for to ryse,
To take oure wey ther as I yow devyse.
But nathelees, whil I have tyme and space,
Er that I ferther in this tale pace,
Me thynketh it acordaunt to resoun
To telle yow al the condicioun
Of ech of hem, so as it semed me,
And whiche they weren, and of what degree,
And eek in what array that they were inne;
And at a knyght than wol I first bigynne.

Let me try:
"That I was of here fellowship anon
And made forward early for to rise
To take our way there as I you devise
But nonetheless, while I have time and space,
Er that I further in this tale pace
I think it according(?) to reason
To tell you all the condition
Of each of them(?), so as it seemed [to] me
And which they weren't, and of what degree,
And eek(!?) in what array that they were in,
And at a knight then will I first begin.

Paraphrase:
The narrator was with a group and woke up early to travel [to Canterbury] as the group devised.
He decides while he has time, before he gets further in the tale, that it is reasonable to describe the condition of each of the others, as is seemed to him, and what [condition] they weren't in, and what they were wearing.
He begins with a knight first.

I can understand that. It's like a combination of Shakespearean poetry and failed autocorrect.
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:25 pm

I can't imagine a world where people cannot understand Latin. There literally aren't other languages. All proposals should be written in Latin.

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Postby Sciongrad » Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:40 pm

Excidium Planetis wrote:I can understand that. It's like a combination of Shakespearean poetry and failed autocorrect.

Even if you can decipher the meaning, it's still illegal. This forum is conducted in modern English. It's both classist and anglocentric to assume that because you, a native English speaker, can understand middle English when it's written in modern script, it should therefore be legal because everyone else should be able to understand it too. Don't write proposals in middle English, it will almost certainly be struck down.

Even if it weren't illegal, I don't know anyone here that can actually write in middle English.
Last edited by Sciongrad on Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:12 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Postby Lancaster of Wessex » Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:35 pm

Excidium Planetis wrote:
Lancaster of Wessex wrote:I'm not in the WA so I don't have a horse in this race as it were, but this seems absolutely pointless; what would writing in Middle English or any type of English other than standard, "normal practice" English achieve?

Well, if you roleplayed as a 14th century nation, it would be consistent with your roleplay.

Other than that, not much. Aesthetic, maybe?


If you roleplayed a 14th century nation, then what resolutions could they be hoping to pass? Stricter regulations on husbandry? Tighter blacksmith apprenticeship rules? The WA wouldn't even EXIST in the 14th century.
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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Fri Apr 28, 2017 12:29 am

Lancaster of Wessex wrote:The WA wouldn't even EXIST in the 14th century.

It would, just it'd probably be called the Catholic Church! :P

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Postby Araraukar » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:45 am

Excidium Planetis wrote:Difficult to understand, yes, but not incomprehensible.

To you maybe. As non-native English user I'm siding with Scion.

Imperium Anglorum wrote:I can't imagine a world where people cannot understand Latin. There literally aren't other languages.

Pfft, Finnish is totally the superior language, the grammar actually makes sense! And it's not related to Latin, unlike English and other such languages.

To everyone who wonders about languages being related, familiarize yourselves with this language tree. :lol:

EDIT: Latin isn't represented in the language tree, because the image only counts native speakers.
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Postby Sierra Lyricalia » Fri Apr 28, 2017 5:51 am

Lancaster of Wessex wrote:
Excidium Planetis wrote:Well, if you roleplayed as a 14th century nation, it would be consistent with your roleplay.

Other than that, not much. Aesthetic, maybe?


If you roleplayed a 14th century nation, then what resolutions could they be hoping to pass? Stricter regulations on husbandry? Tighter blacksmith apprenticeship rules? The WA wouldn't even EXIST in the 14th century.


The Reinheitsgebot would fall under Advancement of Industry, I think...

Furtherment of Democracy would become as unusable as the gun and drug categories currently are.

People would submit terrible repeals of GAR #9 (Prevention of Torture) like they currently do with NAPA (as in, "Oh, another PoT repeal - it must be Tuesday.").

Rights of Sapient Species and AI Coexistence Protocol would be repealed for promoting witchcraft.

Actually, sounds like fun, a bit.
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:18 am

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:
Lancaster of Wessex wrote:
If you roleplayed a 14th century nation, then what resolutions could they be hoping to pass? Stricter regulations on husbandry? Tighter blacksmith apprenticeship rules? The WA wouldn't even EXIST in the 14th century.


The Reinheitsgebot would fall under Advancement of Industry, I think...

Furtherment of Democracy would become as unusable as the gun and drug categories currently are.

People would submit terrible repeals of GAR #9 (Prevention of Torture) like they currently do with NAPA (as in, "Oh, another PoT repeal - it must be Tuesday.").

Rights of Sapient Species and AI Coexistence Protocol would be repealed for promoting witchcraft.

Actually, sounds like fun, a bit.


I, for one, welcome our new Feudal WA Overlords.
Last edited by Separatist Peoples on Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Mallorea and Riva » Fri Apr 28, 2017 6:50 am

This is one of those discussions that only comes up when someone gets bored and looks for a weird potential loophole in the rules to talk about. I don't think it has ever come up since the creation of the UN/WA. As an intellectual curiosity it's almost interesting to consider, otherwise, there's really no need to muse about non-issues.
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Postby Excidium Planetis » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:25 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:I can't imagine a world where people cannot understand Latin. There literally aren't other languages. All proposals should be written in Latin.

That would be illegal. The rules very specifically say English, not Latin.

Sciongrad wrote:Even if you can decipher the meaning, it's still illegal.

If it is decipher able and English, there is no rule against it.

You say it is illegal. Alright, what rule does it violate?

This forum is conducted in modern English.

Fortunately, the rules don't specify modern English, just understandable English.

It's both classist and anglocentric to assume that because you, a native English speaker, can understand middle English when it's written in modern script, it should therefore be legal because everyone else should be able to understand it too.

It is classist and anglocentric to assume that because some native English speakers here can understand economic jargon when it is written in modern script, it should therefore be legal because everyone else can understand it too.

Oh wait, no, nevermind. As far as I know, the rule never states that 100% of English speakers must be able to understand a resolution for it to be legal. Merely for it to be English and not incomprehensible.

Chaucer's 15th century (correction to earlier where mistakenly said 14th when referring to the 1400s) London style, written in modern characters, is understandable. It is made slightly less so by the poetic nature of Canterbury Tales. If you took the same Middle English spellings and used them for a typical resolution, you might get:

This honourable Assembly,

Thynken it acordaunt to resoun to ende swich wordes of langage,

Ordres that englissh be made the right langage to write lawe in.


There, that wasn't so hard, was it?

Lancaster of Wessex wrote:If you roleplayed a 14th century nation, then what resolutions could they be hoping to pass? Stricter regulations on husbandry? Tighter blacksmith apprenticeship rules? The WA wouldn't even EXIST in the 14th century.

Promotion of Shepherding, perhaps.

You would also have voted on arms regulation, immigration, passport establishment, libraries, cultural preservation, tariffs, the rights of minorities, a resolution requiring you to read resolutions, and many, many other things that apply to a 15th century nation.

The WA would exist in the 15th Century if you were a 15th Century nation in the WA.

Saying it doesn't exist in the real life 15th Century is ridiculous, it doesn't exist in the real life 21st Century either.
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Postby Sciongrad » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:15 am

Excidium Planetis wrote: You say it is illegal. Alright, what rule does it violate?

Proposals must use understandable English. Conventional legalese and Latin terms are acceptable within reason. Proposals written in incomprehensible English or a foreign language will be deleted.

To many players, middle English is not comprehensible.

Fortunately, the rules don't specify modern English, just understandable English.

Unfortunately, the rules specify comprehensible English, not just English.

It is classist and anglocentric to assume that because some native English speakers here can understand economic jargon when it is written in modern script, it should therefore be legal because everyone else can understand it too.

Oh wait, no, nevermind. As far as I know, the rule never states that 100% of English speakers must be able to understand a resolution for it to be legal. Merely for it to be English and not incomprehensible.

This forum presupposes that those participating have at least some interest in policy and so it is inevitable that some resolutions will use jargon (although that is generally discouraged). It is not assumed that players have the ability to read middle English. I'm sure there are many people that are very proud of your ability to read late middle English written in modern script, but that doesn't matter on this forum.

No more. As always, you're unrelenting desire to show off how smart you are is causing everyone a headache. Submit a resolution in middle English at your own peril.
Last edited by Sciongrad on Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:28 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby Frisbeeteria » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:23 am

This discussion is right up there with "if dogs and cats could type, could they submit a valid GA proposal?" Are you really that bored?

And the answer to my question would be "no, they'd be watching cat videos on YouTube all day". Both species.

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Postby Araraukar » Fri Apr 28, 2017 11:29 am

Fris has spoken, cat videos have won the day, life is good. :P
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Postby The Greater Siriusian Domain » Fri Apr 28, 2017 2:36 pm

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:Rights of Sapient Species and AI Coexistence Protocol would be repealed for promoting witchcraft.


That could depend... what if it's a fantasy nation set in an alternate 14th century Europe?

Frisbeeteria wrote:This discussion is right up there with "if dogs and cats could type, could they submit a valid GA proposal?" Are you really that bored?

And the answer to my question would be "no, they'd be watching cat videos on YouTube all day". Both species.


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Postby The Cabana » Fri Apr 28, 2017 8:31 pm

Good luck getting anyone to approve if you write your proposal in Middle English.
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Postby Excidium Planetis » Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:57 pm

Sciongrad wrote:No more. As always, you're unrelenting desire to show off how smart you are is causing everyone a headache.

???

Watch the personal attacks, Sciongrad.

Frisbeeteria wrote:This discussion is right up there with "if dogs and cats could type, could they submit a valid GA proposal?" Are you really that bored?

The odds of dogs and cats learning to type are astronomically low.

Submitting a proposal in Middle English is definitely possible.

And no, I am not bored. I am having a rather invigorating discussion about the legality of writing proposals in Middle English.

The Cabana wrote:Good luck getting anyone to approve if you write your proposal in Middle English.

Well, being unable to raise support for it does not make a proposal illegal.
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:30 am

Excidium Planetis wrote:
Sciongrad wrote:No more. As always, you're unrelenting desire to show off how smart you are is causing everyone a headache.

???

Watch the personal attacks, Sciongrad.

Frisbeeteria wrote:This discussion is right up there with "if dogs and cats could type, could they submit a valid GA proposal?" Are you really that bored?

The odds of dogs and cats learning to type are astronomically low.

Submitting a proposal in Middle English is definitely possible.

And no, I am not bored. I am having a rather invigorating discussion about the legality of writing proposals in Middle English.


Cool. GenSec isn't, for the record. Wanted to be clear on that in case it comes up. Carry on.

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Postby Bears Armed » Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:26 am

Excidium Planetis wrote:The odds of dogs and cats learning to type are astronomically low.

Even if Bears have done so?
^_^


This discussion reminded me of one particular historical resolution, which was authored by a nation of cavemen.
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Imperium Anglorum
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 12659
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sun Apr 30, 2017 2:38 am

Bears Armed wrote:This discussion reminded me of one particular historical resolution, which was authored by a nation of cavemen.

Certainly one of the better UN resolutions.

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Tzorsland
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Founded: May 08, 2004
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Tzorsland » Mon May 01, 2017 8:43 am

Lancaster of Wessex wrote:If you roleplayed a 14th century nation, then what resolutions could they be hoping to pass? Stricter regulations on husbandry? Tighter blacksmith apprenticeship rules? The WA wouldn't even EXIST in the 14th century.


Nationstates didn't properly exist in the 14th century; it was more like Citystates.
However, it would be an interesting time for a hypothetical European Assembly.
  • Climate Change: The threat of Global Cooling with the end of the Medieval Warm Period and the start of the Little Ice Age
  • Foreign invasions: The expansion of the Ottoman Empire into the Balkans
  • Famine: Hits Europe in the teens
  • Black Death: Hits Europe in the late 40's
  • The Hundred Years War starts in '45 ... more for the EA:SC

But that has nothing to do with writing proposals since by definition the WA consists of all sorts of tech levels. There is no need to write medieval in order to role play medieval, there is no need to write age of enlightenment in order to role play age of enlightenment and so on.
Last edited by Tzorsland on Mon May 01, 2017 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Excidium Planetis
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Founded: May 01, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Excidium Planetis » Mon May 01, 2017 8:59 am

Tzorsland wrote:But that has nothing to do with writing proposals since by definition the WA consists of all sorts of tech levels. There is no need to write medieval in order to role play medieval, there is no need to write age of enlightenment in order to role play age of enlightenment and so on.

...and there's no need to write modern to roleplay modern. Write at any tech level, including 15th century.
Last edited by Excidium Planetis on Mon May 01, 2017 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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