[DEFEATED] Extrajudicial Punishment Ban

[Thyerata]

I wouldn't submit this until this legality challenge is resolved

[Alicorn Princess Twilight Sparkle]

Hereby defines:

Extrajudicial punishment as punishment apart from a formal legal system, for those suspected of criminality or transgressions against society or persons.

Hereby mandates:

No member nation shall allow for the occurrence of extrajudicial punishment through refusing to enact proper legal punitive measures on those who enact extrajudicial punishments on suspected individuals.

All member nations must make extrajudicial punishment a criminal or civil offence subject to the sentencing of the differing jurisdictions of their respective legal systems.

Clarifies that nothing in this legislation criminalizes interference in criminal activity until the appropriate representatives of the law arrive to arrest the suspected individuals, as long as those individuals do call upon those representatives within a reasonable amount of time.

A small-ish purple pony, wings and horn included, materializes in the drafting chamber with a flash of pink light.

"Let's see, what do we have here..." Princess Twilight Sparkle begins, quickly reading over the draft on the table before her. "Now, I would like some clarification here. My nation lacks a formal law enforcement agency. We have Royal Guardsponies who sometimes keep the peace, but they aren't really for general law enforcement, just for martial law. And then some townships appoint a Sheriff, who appoints deputies, and generally they keep their town free of crime... but most of the nation relies on the actions of ordinary ponies to stop lawbreakers and villains. Would we be required to criminalize such actions? What would we even do to such citizens if they broke anti-extrajudicial punishment laws and continued to exact punishment on criminals?"

[Bananaistan]

"We feel the proposal needs some work to acheive its aims. Particularly the definition clause needs to be tightened up to exclude the chastisement of errant children while an employer might also want to dismiss employees for gross misconduct without necessarily calling in the civic guards."

- Cde Brian

[Aclion]

"Let's see, what do we have here..." Princess Twilight Sparkle begins, quickly reading over the draft on the table before her. "Now, I would like some clarification here. My nation lacks a formal law enforcement agency. We have Royal Guardsponies who sometimes keep the peace, but they aren't really for general law enforcement, just for martial law. And then some townships appoint a Sheriff, who appoints deputies, and generally they keep their town free of crime... but most of the nation relies on the actions of ordinary ponies to stop lawbreakers and villains. Would we be required to criminalize such actions? What would we even do to such citizens if they broke anti-extrajudicial punishment laws and continued to exact punishment on criminals?"

Do you rely on ordinary ponies to enact punishment on lawbreakers or only to citizens arrest? Because the latter is specifically protected.

[Bakhton]

"We feel the proposal needs some work to acheive its aims. Particularly the definition clause needs to be tightened up to exclude the chastisement of errant children while an employer might also want to dismiss employees for gross misconduct without necessarily calling in the civic guards."

- Cde Brian

"Will work on this."

[Bakhton]

Hereby defines:

Extrajudicial punishment as punishment apart from a formal legal system, for those suspected of criminality or transgressions against society or persons.

Hereby mandates:

No member nation shall allow for the occurrence of extrajudicial punishment through refusing to enact proper legal punitive measures on those who enact extrajudicial punishments on suspected individuals.

All member nations must make extrajudicial punishment a criminal or civil offence subject to the sentencing of the differing jurisdictions of their respective legal systems.

Clarifies that nothing in this legislation criminalizes interference in criminal activity until the appropriate representatives of the law arrive to arrest the suspected individuals, as long as those individuals do call upon those representatives within a reasonable amount of time.

A small-ish purple pony, wings and horn included, materializes in the drafting chamber with a flash of pink light.

"Let's see, what do we have here..." Princess Twilight Sparkle begins, quickly reading over the draft on the table before her. "Now, I would like some clarification here. My nation lacks a formal law enforcement agency. We have Royal Guardsponies who sometimes keep the peace, but they aren't really for general law enforcement, just for martial law. And then some townships appoint a Sheriff, who appoints deputies, and generally they keep their town free of crime... but most of the nation relies on the actions of ordinary ponies to stop lawbreakers and villains. Would we be required to criminalize such actions? What would we even do to such citizens if they broke anti-extrajudicial punishment laws and continued to exact punishment on criminals?"

"Those sheriffs would be considered the appropriate representatives of the law. First clarification clause covers the second objection. They can stop crime but they must alert the representatives of the law within a reasonable time period."

[Alicorn Princess Twilight Sparkle]

Do you rely on ordinary ponies to enact punishment on lawbreakers or only to citizens arrest? Because the latter is specifically protected.

"The former, sir." Twilight Sparkle replies. "For the most part, ordinary ponies such as you or I- er, well, such as myself, are responsible for ensuring the safety of Equestria. Why, I remember one time, where a few of my close friends and I made matching costumes and pretended to be one masked hero... the Mysterious Mare Do Well, and- but I digress."

"Those sheriffs would be considered the appropriate representatives of the law. First clarification clause covers the second objection. They can stop crime but they must alert the representatives of the law within a reasonable time period."

Twilight looks confused. "But what representatives of the law would they alert? The Sheriffs of some other town, to deal with something hundreds of miles away and not even in their jurisdiction, that can't be right. There isn't anyone they could reasonably alert, besides other civilians."

[Bakhton]

Do you rely on ordinary ponies to enact punishment on lawbreakers or only to citizens arrest? Because the latter is specifically protected.

"The former, sir." Twilight Sparkle replies. "For the most part, ordinary ponies such as you or I- er, well, such as myself, are responsible for ensuring the safety of Equestria. Why, I remember one time, where a few of my close friends and I made matching costumes and pretended to be one masked hero... the Mysterious Mare Do Well, and- but I digress."

"Those sheriffs would be considered the appropriate representatives of the law. First clarification clause covers the second objection. They can stop crime but they must alert the representatives of the law within a reasonable time period."

Twilight looks confused. "But what representatives of the law would they alert? The Sheriffs of some other town, to deal with something hundreds of miles away and not even in their jurisdiction, that can't be right. There isn't anyone they could reasonably alert, besides other civilians."

"Then your nation falls under the clarification of not having a formal legal system."

[Bakhton]

"Draft III is up!"

I wouldn't submit this until this legality challenge is resolved

"It appears this has largely been resolved as legal, unless anyone has further dispute."

[Thyerata]

"Draft III is up!"

I wouldn't submit this until this legality challenge is resolved

"It appears this has largely been resolved as legal, unless anyone has further dispute."

Not so. GenSec haven't ruled on it yet, so we can't presume anything

OOC: Scion, SP and Bears are in my region. I've heard from Scion that three of them have RL commitments (finals), so they're going to wait a bit.

[Bakhton]

"Draft III is up!"

"It appears this has largely been resolved as legal, unless anyone has further dispute."

Not so. GenSec haven't ruled on it yet, so we can't presume anything

OOC: Scion, SP and Bears are in my region. I've heard from Scion that three of them have RL commitments (finals), so they're going to wait a bit.

OOC: No they're not. GenSec doesn't really choose to rule on things until they reach quorum most of the time. Sciongrad and Imperium Anglorum have already stated the duplication claim is frivolous.

[Thyerata]

Not so. GenSec haven't ruled on it yet, so we can't presume anything

OOC: Scion, SP and Bears are in my region. I've heard from Scion that three of them have RL commitments (finals), so they're going to wait a bit.

OOC: No they're not. GenSec doesn't really choose to rule on things until they reach quorum most of the time. Sciongrad and Imperium Anglorum have already stated the duplication claim is frivolous.

OOC: regional discord channel says otherwise

[Araraukar]

OOC: regional discord channel says otherwise

OOC: Then surely one of them can pop in to say "Yes, Thye is correct"?

[Bakhton]

GenSec ruling going on. This proposal may be a little bit before getting moving again, which is fine. Thanks for the support!

[Bakhton]

"This proposal has been ruled legal by the powers that be. Time to get back on board with Draft III." Lara blows the dust off her proposal.

[Covenstone]

"This proposal has been ruled legal by the powers that be. Time to get back on board with Draft III." Lara blows the dust off her proposal.

Congratulations, Mr/Mrs/I have forgotten the correct mode of address (apologies) Ambassador/Delegate/etc. You can count on my continued, if very small, support as this proceeds.

[Bakhton]

OOC: I believe the strength would be mild, I originally had it at significant, but I think it's better at mild. Any thoughts?

[Aclion]

Do you rely on ordinary ponies to enact punishment on lawbreakers or only to citizens arrest? Because the latter is specifically protected.

"The former, sir." Twilight Sparkle replies. "For the most part, ordinary ponies such as you or I- er, well, such as myself, are responsible for ensuring the safety of Equestria. Why, I remember one time, where a few of my close friends and I made matching costumes and pretended to be one masked hero... the Mysterious Mare Do Well, and- but I digress."

"Then yes if you are doing that outside of a formal legal system that would extrajudicial punishment, and horrible. Though, as an aside I was under the impression that you and your close friends were not ordinary at all. And I don't believe that recusing civilians from the consequences of poor infrastructure maintenance constitutes punishment, extrajudicial or not."

OOC: I believe the strength would be mild, I originally had it at significant, but I think it's better at mild. Any thoughts?

Mild seems more appropriate to me, though it mostly depends on how you interpret the scope of the proposal. I fully expect to see anther frivolous challenge regardless of category.

[Bakhton]

OOC: Any objections to submitting?

[Tinfect Diplomatic Enclave]

OOC: Any objections to submitting?

OOC:
Just the one; it doesn't appear that this draft contains any provisions for criminals killed by law-enforcement to prevent them from committing, or continuing to commit, a crime. I suspect you'd rather avoid police being arrested for eliminating a mass-shooter so as to avoid them opening fire on a bus of schoolchildren.

[Bakhton]

OOC: Any objections to submitting?

OOC:
Just the one; it doesn't appear that this draft contains any provisions for criminals killed by law-enforcement to prevent them from committing, or continuing to commit, a crime. I suspect you'd rather avoid police being arrested for eliminating a mass-shooter so as to avoid them opening fire on a bus of schoolchildren.

OOC: I'm not sure what part of the proposal would infer that. Could you specify where this concern arises in the text so I can make it better.
EDIT: As well, wouldn't police officers ending conflict fall within normal legal jurisdiction?

[Bananaistan]

OOC: Any objections to submitting?

"I still think that the definition clause needs to be tightened up. I know you changed it on foot of my last comment but at the moment it would still allow the mob to cause physical or mental harm to their target which is not excessive. There must be a way to state it such that the any harm, no matter how small, cannot be caused by those not in authority to do so while still allowing but restraining the harm caused by legitimate chastisement by parents or employers or superior officers and avoiding the whole corporal punishment issue. Bananaistan would have no problem should this effectively prohibit corporal punishment but I do recall a delegation previously proposing such a ban running into serious opposition."

- Ted

[Bakhton]

OOC: Any objections to submitting?

"I still think that the definition clause needs to be tightened up. I know you changed it on foot of my last comment but at the moment it would still allow the mob to cause physical or mental harm to their target which is not excessive. There must be a way to state it such that the any harm, no matter how small, cannot be caused by those not in authority to do so while still allowing but restraining the harm caused by legitimate chastisement by parents or employers or superior officers and avoiding the whole corporal punishment issue. Bananaistan would have no problem should this effectively prohibit corporal punishment but I do recall a delegation previously proposing such a ban running into serious opposition."

- Ted

"Will do!"

[Bakhton]

OOC: Any objections to submitting?

"I still think that the definition clause needs to be tightened up. I know you changed it on foot of my last comment but at the moment it would still allow the mob to cause physical or mental harm to their target which is not excessive. There must be a way to state it such that the any harm, no matter how small, cannot be caused by those not in authority to do so while still allowing but restraining the harm caused by legitimate chastisement by parents or employers or superior officers and avoiding the whole corporal punishment issue. Bananaistan would have no problem should this effectively prohibit corporal punishment but I do recall a delegation previously proposing such a ban running into serious opposition."

- Ted

"Does the definition work for you?"

[Wallenburg]

"Ambassador, this seems to still prohibit parents from administering corporal punishment. Your proposal says that it makes no statement on 'proper parenting', but that doesn't satisfy my concerns about such a prohibition."