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by Wabbia » Mon Apr 03, 2017 10:14 am
by Excidium Planetis » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:00 am
Kalata wrote:it haz much to do wif beer. we ned to asez teh chancez fr vehicular accidentz in hightechnology soceitiez. thiz honestle stil soundz liek one uv ur problemz. practicale anyone can kwite eesileh deeraiv jump cordinatez frum their obviouz tachyon emisionz. kepin fastr than lite travel secret iz liek tryin to hide uh star chlustr. an if ur computerz arent fule senteint u wreely shud fire womevr r in charge for it, sinz eyeder dey kant ryte kode, aur dey r krayzee pahranoyd.
Separatist Peoples wrote:"Necessary and important are entirely subjective, but cultural preservation and celebration is always valuable, ambassador. Without cultural enrichment, life becomes painfully monotonous. I feel like I shouldn't have to argue why cultural heritage and enrichment is beneficial. It's part of what separates us from beasts."
"That does not follow. Drinking can be accomplished without drinking to excess."
OOC: Point taken. In the future, I will endeavor not to make jokes in drafting threads. Fucking hell, people, its a proposal about beer. Having a drunk ambassador was meant to be funny.
"Your only meritorious argument against seems to be the cost, to which I must point out that the logical end of that approach justifies never passing a resolution ever again to preserve the coffers. It would be cheaper to disband the World Assembly altogether. Our purpose here is not to clutch at the purse-strings of the GAO, but to legislate to the benefit of the world."
On an entirely unrelated note, its fascinating that a fairly unique proposal being submitted during a time of activity decline is being painted as a funding sink, when it really wouldn't be very expensive by comparison, and arguments about international relevance when we have an entire category devoted to cultural promotion. The temperance ones I get, but the others are just looking obstructionist in light of the historical decline in activity. :/
Singaporean Transhumans wrote:You didn't know about Excidium? The greatest space nomads in the NS multiverse with a healthy dose (read: over 9000 percent) of realism?
Saveyou Island wrote:"Warmest welcomes to the Assembly, ambassador. You'll soon learn to hate everyone here."
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Digital Network Defence is pretty meh
News: AI wins Dawn Fleet election for High Counselor.
by Auralia » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:04 am
by Araraukar » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:29 am
Separatist Peoples wrote:OOC: Point taken. In the future, I will endeavor not to make jokes in drafting threads. Fucking hell, people, its a proposal about beer. Having a drunk ambassador was meant to be funny.
"Our purpose here is not to clutch at the purse-strings of the GAO, but to legislate to the benefit of the world."
Araraukar wrote:OOC: Considering the promotion of alcohol drinking, shouldn't this go under Recreational Drug Use rather than Education and Creativity?
OOC: It doesn't promote drinking, it promotes brewing. Brewing is as much an art form as cooking.
Develop standardized tools, methods, and processes for the structured evaluation, ranking and feedback of beer, mead, and cider by establishing a repository of known brewing styles, including a guide for color, smell, flavor, carbonation, and ingredients.
Organizing and coordinating with member states to promote brewing competitions and beer tastings at cultural events, both international and domestic.
Implores nations to make brewing equipment and ingredients for the small-scale homebrewer available for personal production and consumption.
Urges nations to encourage local communities to establish brewing and beer tasting events representative of their local brewing heritage to create an appreciation for both local and international beers.
Funding research into historical impact of beer and brewing on societies, and preserving techniques that may otherwise be lost to time.
"As many cultures with music have alcohol, ambassador. It's been a
"Encouragement can be ignored. Your Excellency is welcome to ignore this proposal should it pass."
"Slavery, forced marriage, and infanticide involve the deprivation of rights of a sapient creature."
OOC: ...There are hundreds of variations on yeast
thousands of different kinds of malt
and just tons of hops.
Plus adjuncts
You can't argue that the mere limitation on ingredients itself limits the variation of concoctions any more than you can argue that cars are limited by their component parts. All cars have engines and wheels, but that doesn't make them all the same.
OOC: There's a difference between promoting brewing in general and promoting the brewing of beer in particular, which is why this proposal is not comparable with promoting music, literature, cultural sites or artefacts.
OOC: As I've said at least once before, wine deserves it's own resolution. It's so very pervasive and nuanced that it deserves no less.
As for liquors, I can't lump them in with beer and wine, because beer and wine don't get distilled. Distilling is a different process entirely
and besides, if nations are going to make temperance arguments, I'm going to have no luck promoting 100 proof whiskey when I can't promote 12 proof beer.
and arguments about international relevance
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Kalata » Mon Apr 03, 2017 11:50 am
Excidium Planetis wrote:"Now you are just making stuff up, sir. 'Tachyon emissions', really." Blackbourne scoffs. "No particles are emitted from our ships while warping, negative mass or otherwise."
by Separatist Peoples » Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:33 pm
Excidium Planetis wrote:
"If culture is so important that even very specific aspects of it require World Assembly resolutions, we will soon have resolutions on the promotion of video games, three dimensional film making, figure skating, crochet, and underwater basket weaving."
"Indeed. But that will not be what people think when they see a WA resolution about beer up for vote. We have minors even among the Ambassadors here. You are potentially setting a terrible example for them, Ambassador Bell, by posing beer as a great thing, worthy of international recognition, elevated to the status of such things as universal civil rights, the right to educate."
I hope you understand, drinking is not a bad thing, but to actively promote it before an audience of minors, without any kind of disclaimer about the dangers of excessive drinking, is an invitation to trouble."
It may be funny, but that doesn't exclude it from being used as an IC argument against the proposal.
"Far from a logical conclusion. Funds are acquired by the WA to better the world, yes, but those funds should be wisely allocated. We don't have infinite funding, so we should make sure to use what we have for the best possible causes. I do not believe brewing standards take precedence over many of the things we have yet failed to address in World Assembly resolutions."
It also fits within my longstanding position that international legislation is for problems that can only be solved at the international level. Cultural preservation of brewing is not one of them. Even that library we just built isn't something that is necessary to create through WA legislation. I supported it because it offers an IC advantage to Excidium Planetis, whereas brewing (Excidians not being known for their alcohol) does not.
Araraukar wrote:OOC: Maybe you should've had him pass out on stage?
IC: How does promoting brewing benefit the world? Or promoting the legalization of alcohol? You know yourself that people develope alcohol problems.
OOC: You don't really promote it as an art, though, you promote it as an industry, with some drug control relaxation mixed in:Develop standardized tools, methods, and processes for the structured evaluation, ranking and feedback of beer, mead, and cider by establishing a repository of known brewing styles, including a guide for color, smell, flavor, carbonation, and ingredients.
Organizing and coordinating with member states to promote brewing competitions and beer tastings at cultural events, both international and domestic.
Implores nations to make brewing equipment and ingredients for the small-scale homebrewer available for personal production and consumption.
Urges nations to encourage local communities to establish brewing and beer tasting events representative of their local brewing heritage to create an appreciation for both local and international beers.
It looks like you're only throwing the word tradition in there to justify the AoE.
Was this intentionally left unfinished?
Well, technically the nations can't ignore being encouraged, as that's why encouragement works as a mild clause, but they can choose to not act on the encouragement.
IC: Alcohol problems lead to many problems that are not limited to the person who does the drinking. You honestly can't be claiming that have people going around with most of their thinking turned off by a chemical substance is a good thing.
OOC: All of which are still yeast.
All of which are still malt.
All of which are still hops.
All of which are still adjuncts intended to change the flavour and are, to my understanding, optional.
You see the pattern? The basic recipe itself does not vary. It's the exact ingredients that are used for the recipe, that vary. You can bake thousands of different types of bread, but the basic bread recipe will still involve flour and water. Anything else (including yeast) is just add-ons for variety.
...yes, that's part of my argument. Why should beer brewing have a special status?
Wine: grapes, water, additives. The grapes provide the yeast and sugars. Additives are optional, like with beer.
Now if you were talking solely about beer and wine (and other alcoholic beverages) culture and their historical meaning then yeah, this would be a good fit and could be arguably made into an international issue. But you're promoting brewing. Which is either an industry (when done commercially) or relaxation of drug control for many nations (when done for personal consumption).
Liquour/booze: You start with something that has been fermented and boil it so that the alcohol evaporates and recondences, leaving most of the water behind. Repeat until you've got what you wanted, or (at least in the case of Mythbusters) until something goes hilariously and dangerously wrong.
You shouldn't be promoting beer. You shouldn't be promoting brewing. You should be promoting the historical meaning and traditions involved.
by Kalata » Mon Apr 03, 2017 2:46 pm
Araraukar wrote:OOC: Considering the promotion of alcohol drinking, shouldn't this go under Recreational Drug Use rather than Education and Creativity?
by Araraukar » Mon Apr 03, 2017 4:36 pm
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Sciongrad » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:05 pm
Araraukar wrote:As for the activity on the forum - are you kidding? The first three pages have 30 threads by people (or at least accounts) whose names I don't remember seeing here a lot until very recently, which is almost double that of the number of threads (16-17) from veterans, not counting locked threads, legality challenges, discussions, repository threads (including the usual stickies) and at least one obvious joke (the bacon one). WA just passed a newbie author's proposal. Another is at vote. How is that not a lot of newbie activity?
by Kalata » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:20 pm
Araraukar wrote:OOC: Matters for the legality of the proposal, and legality matters for the passing chances...
by States of Glory WA Office » Mon Apr 03, 2017 5:59 pm
Separatist Peoples wrote:States of Glory WA Office wrote:Barbera: Are you attempting to argue that alcohol has the same reach as music, literature, cultural sites and artefacts? When libraries of alcoholic beverages start being built then please let us know forthwith
"As many cultures with music have alcohol, ambassador. It's been a
Separatist Peoples wrote:"There are 1,039,239,580,844 distinct kinds of brewing products native to member states." Bell says, holding up an official report.
Separatist Peoples wrote:States of Glory WA Office wrote:Barbera: This proposal encourages such practices nonetheless, does it not? Even the mere encouragement of restrictions on interstellar warfare is enough to insult various spacefaring nations; why is alcohol the exception?
"Encouragement can be ignored. Your Excellency is welcome to ignore this proposal should it pass."
Separatist Peoples wrote:States of Glory WA Office wrote:Barbera: We must request that you actually address the arguments rather than dismissing them as logical fallacies without any substantiation.
"Slavery, forced marriage, and infanticide involve the deprivation of rights of a sapient creature. Neither disco nor brewing do. Its a strawman argument that is beneath you, ambassador."
Separatist Peoples wrote:States of Glory WA Office wrote:Barbera: Alcohol is both appalling and harmful. Therefore, if the brewing of alcohol ought to be considered an important cultural practice then so too should the engagement in disco music, as distasteful as you may find it.
"I never argued that disco music shouldn't be considered an important cultural practice. It's a kind of music and dance that emerged in the context of social shift during a dynamic time. It is as much a piece of cultural heritage as baroque or rock'n'roll."
Excidium Planetis wrote:"'It's the right to beer, man! Now we gotta, like, fight for it.'"
by Araraukar » Mon Apr 03, 2017 9:07 pm
States of Glory WA Office wrote:Of course, my attempts to RP (Barbera acting as if it's the end of the world and Harold setting off the fire alarm yet again) are ignored, unless they somehow count as "poor debate".
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Bears Armed » Tue Apr 04, 2017 4:16 am
by Araraukar » Tue Apr 04, 2017 6:27 am
Separatist Peoples wrote:"Hell, I'm trying to promote something that reflects the good in this world, not fight against the bad. We all need a change of pace."
"The World Assembly isn't in the business of slapping warning labels on things."
"...Promotion of Beekeeping..."
"We treat World Assembly members as sophisticated actors, not idiots. Though, maybe we should...no! Sophisticated actors!"
"Culture is worthy of protection to some of us"
IC: How does promoting brewing benefit the world? Or promoting the legalization of alcohol? You know yourself that people develope alcohol problems.
"Brewing is an activity rich in culture and creativity. Promoting both is a benefit in the world where the product is not inherently destructive. And beer is not inherently destructive. No more so than wine."
"Nations are more than capable of regulating their own consumption laws. I wouldn't dare presume to micromanage"
OOC: I'm promoting brewing from the artistic aspect and not the industry perspective, which would entail reducing legal barriers and generating a market.
OOC: Splitting hairs.
OOC: Not all car engines are the same. Not all fountain pens are the same. Not all chess games are the same, despite there being a finite number of move variations. That's absurd and you know it. You could as well say the same thing about musical composition, since there are a finite number of notes. We all know that's not how it works.
OOC: Grapes that taste different
any more than you can break the Mona Lisa down to pigment, vegetable fiber, and various oils.
OOC: Homebrewing is not an industry, and has never been treated as an industry.
I suggest you talk to a few homebrewers. It would be enlightening to see how much like carpentry or sculpture it is treated in those circles.
OOC: Fucking hell, have you spent any time doing any of this? There is more to it than you're making it out to be.
OOC: The art of the product is what I am promoting
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
by Excidium Planetis » Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:27 am
Kalata wrote:i cant sai thiz ingenderz much confidans in ur netionz sceintific capacitie. it r much liek sumone r runnin locomotif an telin uz that ther iz no vibrationz in teh air an no fotonz bean reflectd or emittd. every singl method for fasterthanlite transportashun emitz tachyons wylst in transit or dem large burstes of them durin accelerashun an deecelerashun. most warp fieldz iz basd off teh manipulashun for spacetime. durin teh accelerashun fase win teh spas r bean manipulated ther iz da tachyon puls. durin transit lite refractd off teh bubbl losez some for itz inergy in teh ferm for lowenergy tachyon emisionz. they certainle iz triky buggerz to deetect, buht, il print u some schematicz wich mite be helpful if ud liek.
Separatist Peoples wrote:"Sure. If those are important enough to the World Assembly, why not?"
"Beer is a great thing worthy of international recognition. Moreso than biological weapons and slavery. Hell, I'm trying to promote something that reflects the good in this world, not fight against the bad. We all need a change of pace."
"The World Assembly isn't in the business of slapping warning labels on things. You might as well have asked the Bears to put a warning on their Promotion of Beekeeping warning people about allergic reactions to stings and preventing infants from eating honey. That's stupid. We treat World Assembly members as sophisticated actors, not idiots. Though, maybe we should...no! Sophisticated actors!"
OOC: That's fucking insane, and I'm deleting any such inclusions from responses and pretending they don't happen. It was a joke. Let it go.
Bell looks at the queue and looks back at Blackbourne. "Right. I promise I won't submit this while the queue is full of important resolutions."
OOC: What a depressing way to play.
"Nations are more than capable of regulating their own consumption laws. I wouldn't dare presume to micromanage"
Singaporean Transhumans wrote:You didn't know about Excidium? The greatest space nomads in the NS multiverse with a healthy dose (read: over 9000 percent) of realism?
Saveyou Island wrote:"Warmest welcomes to the Assembly, ambassador. You'll soon learn to hate everyone here."
Imperium Anglorum wrote:Digital Network Defence is pretty meh
News: AI wins Dawn Fleet election for High Counselor.
by Araraukar » Tue Apr 04, 2017 11:25 am
Excidium Planetis wrote:"...and must set standards for brewing."
Apologies for absences, non-COVID health issues leave me with very little energy at times.Giovenith wrote:And sorry hun, if you were looking for a forum site where nobody argued, you've come to wrong one.
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