NationStates

Separatist Peoples wrote:"An uncontrolled fire is a natural phenomenon that the ecosystem has a resilience against. And almost all ecosystems burn. Even wetlands burn. Sheep, as potentially introduced species, are not something an ecosystem has a protection against."

Well, sheep are also potentially flammable... They're certainly roastable. So you could have a controlled burn and a barbeque at the same time?

Araraukar wrote:

Separatist Peoples wrote:"An uncontrolled fire is a natural phenomenon that the ecosystem has a resilience against. And almost all ecosystems burn. Even wetlands burn. Sheep, as potentially introduced species, are not something an ecosystem has a protection against."

Well, sheep are also potentially flammable... They're certainly roastable. So you could have a controlled burn and a barbeque at the same time?

"Not with their organs in them. Worst barbecue ever." Bell winced at the thought.

"Besides, sheep tastes terrible."

Separatist Peoples wrote:"Besides, sheep tastes terrible."

True, but apparently someone eats them, since meat is one of the reasons given for farming them.

Massive edits are under way. As you can see I'm only finished with the preamble.

"I'm afraid I can't really tell what this proposal seeks to do until I see active clauses, or at least a rather purposeful preamble. I'll keep tabs on this, though."

"We are quite interested in this proposal. Herding has been a major way of life in the Illian Islands, long before the Rosians came and Leutria was formed. Herding is, as you say, of significant cultural value and we are happy to see international acknowledgement of such a fact." The ambassador pauses for a moment, frowning at the proposal before continuing "Of course, as it currently stands we cannot support this proposal as it lacks any active clauses. We know you are currently working on it, but our support will of course depend heavily on what is actually required by this proposal. Still, we are quite interested in this proposal and eager to see where it goes."

George writes a few notes and stands up. "You're introducing a potentially invasive species. How is this going to protect the environment?"

Bakhton wrote:"Goats are of course the most efficient way possible. I don't know what all the hubbub is about," says Lara Qzu as she drinks from a soda wearing a goat sweater

OOC: "and why the soda was wearing a goat sweater I'll never know..."

^_^

Cubbins: The first draft is complete, although I feel it's missing something. I had some other clauses in the works but they seemed to be too close to the animal abuse thing, which we'd rather not delve in to.

Araraukar wrote:

Separatist Peoples wrote:"Besides, sheep tastes terrible."

True, but apparently someone eats them, since meat is one of the reasons given for farming them.

Steph laughs at Bell and Janis. "You have to take the wool off first, ya know! Or if you're one o' those sad nutballs who lets it cook past medium, sure - everything tastes terrible once you burn all the joy out of it. Instead you should take a whole lamb, minus the head & skin & organs, o' course, and rub salt and pepper all over it, shove pieces of garlic and rosemary into it all over the place, sew the cavity shut with a whole lot more cloves and sprigs inside, and spit roast that sucker over wood and charcoal for like six, eight hours. And if that massive pile of pink, juicy, tender meat doesn't make you drool down your shirt, I say you're a damn herbivore yourself!"

OOC: OK, I've never had, like, mutton, but goddamn if lamb ain't just the best red meat I can imagine.


IC:
"Ambassador, I'd take slight issue with your second definition - right now you're mandating that a member state set aside 'a small area for use as a traditional pasture.' That language would work if the WA were a patchwork of small city-states, but it'll need work to suit the current World Assembly. I'm also concerned about just how big 'a small area' would be. With such an open-ended phrase, this resolution would be virtually toothless."

Umeria wrote:

The Greater Siriusian Domain wrote:Teran Saber: "There's no reason why the World Assembly needs to be enforcing this. By all means, go ahead and promote the industry of your choice, but don't force it on people."

"Field fires are a serious issue. Too often they are left abandoned because they have no reason to care, and the farm turns into a huge fire that spreads over a nation's borders into a city and kills countless people. And we aren't forcing an industry on anyone. This is just a WA committee that clears away fire dangers in the most efficient way possible. What exactly is the problem here?"

The Greater Siriusian Domain wrote:OOC: I suspect that this is a prank proposal. I can't see this being serious, and as much as I support making legislation funny again, I think this might need to be pulled.

OOC: Using herds to clear away grass fire hazards is an RL thing too. Sure, I could make it sound more official by using phrases like "domestic grazing mammals" and "deliberate digestion program", but it would take the common sense out of it and I'd prefer to make my proposals as direct as possible. If you can show that the fire hazard control I reference multiple times in my proposal doesn't exist, then by all means, flag it as illegal.

Teran Saber: "You say that as though it's the only way to prevent field fires. I could very much argue that you could simply have a bunch of Scottish men in kilts mowing said fields with push-mowers to the sound of bagpipes and sound equally ridiculous."

OOC: It's not that the issue doesn't exist, it's that your proposed method is hard, if not impossible, to take seriously. I'd suggest you focus more on the conventional uses of sheep. Speaking of which, I suddenly have a taste for lamb chops.

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:Steph laughs at Bell and Janis. "You have to take the wool off first, ya know! Or if you're one o' those sad nutballs who lets it cook past medium, sure - everything tastes terrible once you burn all the joy out of it. Instead you should take a whole lamb, minus the head & skin & organs, o' course, and rub salt and pepper all over it, shove pieces of garlic and rosemary into it all over the place, sew the cavity shut with a whole lot more cloves and sprigs inside, and spit roast that sucker over wood and charcoal for like six, eight hours. And if that massive pile of pink, juicy, tender meat doesn't make you drool down your shirt, I say you're a damn herbivore yourself!"

OOC: OK, I've never had, like, mutton, but goddamn if lamb ain't just the best red meat I can imagine.

Teran Saber: "Ok... Ok... must control primal urge to hunt... DAMNIT STEPH! You're making me hungry!"

OOC: Seconded.

Umeria wrote:

1) Defines, for the purposes of this resolution:

1. a "traditional pasture" as a plot of land in a member nation used to raise livestock with methods that predate the nation's industrialization;
2. a "long-time herder" as a member nation with a livestock industry which has used traditional pastures for a significant portion of its history; and

2) Mandates that all long-time herders keep a small area for use as a traditional pasture.

Being a member of a carnivorous species that still liked to hunt their food, Ikiti was more used to scattering a group of prey animals to pick off one of them, than trying to herd them anywhere, but she did understand the concept. It just sounded like a waste of time and effort.

"Do I read this right in that if there are no more animal farmers currently using pre-industrial ways to farm, this proposal has no effect on them at all? And that's besides you calling the nations farmers instead of the people actually involved with food animals."

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:*snip*

Ikiti turned her head towards the speaking human to indicate she was listening to their words. That seemed to be the way the meaty creatures signified showing attention to each other. She also, more out of habit than conscious intent, scanned the human with her natural sonar. The returning echoes reminded her that she was starting to get hungry.

"Are sheep as edible as you? If yes, you should not spoil them with fire at all," she pointed out helpfully.

- Ikiti Tikilikrr, Head of the Diplomatic Wing of the Tikrr, 10th generation mother of two

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:"Ambassador, I'd take slight issue with your second definition

For reference, 1(b) defines "a 'long-time herder' as a member nation with a livestock industry which has used traditional pastures for a significant portion of its history".

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:right now you're mandating that a member state set aside 'a small area for use as a traditional pasture.'

Well, only the member states that have utilized livestock for a long time.

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:That language would work if the WA were a patchwork of small city-states, but it'll need work to suit the current World Assembly.

What about the language is unfit for nations that aren't small city-states?

Sierra Lyricalia wrote:I'm also concerned about just how big 'a small area' would be. With such an open-ended phrase, this resolution would be virtually toothless."

It has to be large enough to support livestock. We're not mandating that member nations completely revert to traditional methods, just that they don't completely abandon them.

The Greater Siriusian Domain wrote:I'd suggest you focus more on the conventional uses of sheep.

Done.

Giant Bats wrote:"Do I read this right in that if there are no more animal farmers currently using pre-industrial ways to farm, this proposal has no effect on them at all?

Not necessarily. The criteria are having a current livestock industry of any sort, and having a pre-industrial livestock industry (no oxymoron intended) for a significant portion of its history. So, you could completely switch to mass agriculture but still have to comply with this resolution because traditional animal-raising is historically important for you.

Giant Bats wrote:And that's besides you calling the nations farmers instead of the people actually involved with food animals."

The definition concerns the industry as a whole, not the individual farms.

Any more suggestions?

Umeria wrote:Any more suggestions?

Yes. Don't define nations as herders. It makes no sense.

Also, your only mandate is that land be set aside for traditional sheep farming, but are you trying to use the definitions as a mandate to actually require farming sheep the traditional way? And if yes, why? If you want sheep to be farmed in pre-industrial manner, just make that a mandate. However, why the fuck would you want to require that? If a nation doesn't want to waste land for unnecessarily inefficient methods of farming, why should they?

Additionally, "pre-industrial" usually also means "time before effective medications", which would mean that the sheep farmed in the traditional manner would not get veterinary treatment when needed, would not get dietary supplements, would not get vaccinations - which I presume most nations would require for livestock - and in general would get worse care than the non-traditionally kept sheep. I don't really understand why that would be a good thing.

There are very good reasons why most societies have moved past "traditional pre-industrial animal farming". It's inefficient, cruel to animals and a waste of farmland.

Araraukar wrote:Yes. Don't define nations as herders. It makes no sense.

"The definitions have been altered."

Araraukar wrote:Also, your only mandate is that land be set aside for traditional sheep farming, but are you trying to use the definitions as a mandate to actually require farming sheep the traditional way?

"Not exactly. This proposal only requires at least one traditional livestock farm. So, member nations can have as many mass cow farms as they like, but they can't get rid of conventional herding completely."

Araraukar wrote:And if yes, why?

"Because in some nations, herding is culturally significant."

Araraukar wrote:If you want sheep to be farmed in pre-industrial manner, just make that a mandate. However, why the fuck would you want to require that? If a nation doesn't want to waste land for unnecessarily inefficient methods of farming, why should they?

"I doubt one inefficient farm is going to impact the nation's overall economy. This proposal is merely assures that hardcore industrial nations which wish to convert coveted culture into completely current constructions cannot leave all their culture behind."

Araraukar wrote:Additionally, "pre-industrial" usually also means "time before effective medications", which would mean that the sheep farmed in the traditional manner would not get veterinary treatment when needed, would not get dietary supplements, would not get vaccinations - which I presume most nations would require for livestock - and in general would get worse care than the non-traditionally kept sheep. I don't really understand why that would be a good thing.

There are very good reasons why most societies have moved past "traditional pre-industrial animal farming". It's inefficient, cruel to animals and a waste of farmland.

"Good point. The clause is now less focused on the past aspect and more focused on the core methodology."

Umeria wrote:Convinced that we have a lot to learn from our animal brethren;

Fairburn: Was this clause added in by Rowan? What does this have to do with the active clauses?

Umeria wrote:1) Defines, for the purposes of this resolution:
[*]a "herding nation" as a member nation which considers herding to be culturally significant;

Fairburn: Excellent. We no longer consider herding to be culturally significant. Problem solved.

States of Glory WA Office wrote:Fairburn: Was this clause added in by Rowan? What does this have to do with the active clauses?

Cubbins examines the draft. "Hey, wait a minute! That's not my handwriting!" He probably should have noticed earlier, as it was the only clause written in green pen (made from recycled plastic).

States of Glory WA Office wrote:Fairburn: Excellent. We no longer consider herding to be culturally significant. Problem solved.

"The clause has been edited to address the nation as a whole, rather than it's official stance on things."

Umeria wrote:1) Defines, for the purposes of this resolution:
[*]a "herding nation" as a member nation in which herding is culturally significant;

Fairburn: As decided by whom?

States of Glory WA Office wrote:

Umeria wrote:1) Defines, for the purposes of this resolution:
[*]a "herding nation" as a member nation in which herding is culturally significant;

Fairburn: As decided by whom?

NORTH: Presumably, the people who are implementing the resolution. Next up, the Soggers won't be able to tell us the definitions of basic words without consulting a dictionary.

Imperium Anglorum wrote:

States of Glory WA Office wrote:Fairburn: As decided by whom?

NORTH: Presumably, the people who are implementing the resolution.

Fairburn: In that case, we decide that herding is not culturally significant in our nation. Problem solved.

Imperium Anglorum wrote:Next up, the Soggers

Fairburn: (looks around) Who?

Imperium Anglorum wrote:won't be able to tell us the definitions of basic words without consulting a dictionary.

Fairburn: Ah, the Excidians! Of course!

States of Glory WA Office wrote:

NORTH (hologram form): Why yes, you've finally come upon the consensus which everyone follows. The nation implements the laws, and when doing so, can apply criteria thought to be applicable in their situation! Incredible. Will you next tell us about how the World Assembly spends most of its time trying to rein in creative interpretations of resolutions? Or shall I find the references which show this has been the case since the NSUN?

States of Glory WA Office wrote:Fairburn: As decided by whom?

"The nation's history, the general public, WA gnomes... it would vary based on the circumstances, which is why we aren't specifying it."

Imperium Anglorum wrote:Next up, the Soggers won't be able to tell us the definitions of basic words without consulting a dictionary.

"Is this about the herding definition?"

States of Glory WA Office wrote:

Imperium Anglorum wrote:Next up, the Soggers

Fairburn: (looks around) Who?

Imperium Anglorum wrote:won't be able to tell us the definitions of basic words without consulting a dictionary.

Fairburn: Ah, the Excidians! Of course!

Imperium Anglorum wrote:NORTH (hologram form): Why yes, you've finally come upon the consensus which everyone follows. The nation implements the laws, and when doing so, can apply criteria thought to be applicable in their situation! Incredible. Will you next tell us about how the World Assembly spends most of its time trying to rein in creative interpretations of resolutions? Or shall I find the references which show this has been the case since the NSUN?

"Okay... should I make a committee that surveys the populace to see whether herding is significant in their nation?"

Umeria wrote:"Okay... should I make a committee that surveys the populace to see whether herding is significant in their nation?"

No, that would mean taking this whole thing in the exact opposite direction it should be going. You're (again) editing reactively.

Araraukar wrote:

Umeria wrote:"Okay... should I make a committee that surveys the populace to see whether herding is significant in their nation?"

No, that would mean taking this whole thing in the exact opposite direction it should be going. You're (again) editing reactively.

See, this is why I ask first. So, in what direction do you think the proposal should be going?