[PASSED] Stock Exchanges and Foreign Investment

[Calladan]

"They are also wrong."

I was not trying to force my opinion on you, that is how our government operates, we don't want a big government as that would lead to abuse of power and invasive policies.

Ditto, except exactly the opposite

[Wealthatonia]

I was not trying to force my opinion on you, that is how our government operates, we don't want a big government as that would lead to abuse of power and invasive policies.

Ditto, except exactly the opposite

I'm not sure what you mean

[Calladan]

Ditto, except exactly the opposite

I'm not sure what you mean

I mean we are not trying to force our opinion on you, that is how our government operates. However we want a government that is as big as it needs to be to ensure every citizen can be looked after in their time of need, and that every citizen can be guaranteed to be protected by said government from whomever they might need protection from

[Wealthatonia]

I'm not sure what you mean

I mean we are not trying to force our opinion on you, that is how our government operates. However we want a government that is as big as it needs to be to ensure every citizen can be looked after in their time of need, and that every citizen can be guaranteed to be protected by said government from whomever they might need protection from

what are you doing to maintain your citizen's privacy with that large government?

[Calladan]

I mean we are not trying to force our opinion on you, that is how our government operates. However we want a government that is as big as it needs to be to ensure every citizen can be looked after in their time of need, and that every citizen can be guaranteed to be protected by said government from whomever they might need protection from

what are you doing to maintain your citizen's privacy with that large government?

I am pretty sure we are straying off the topic of the proposal at hand. So we should probably find somewhere else to discuss this. But short answer - why would ensuring citizens can be looked after require violating their privacy? The two are entirely unrelated.

[Great Minarchistan]

It should be the duty of private industries such as insurance and hospitals to take care of your people, not the government.

Unfortunately, if the private industries fail to do so - as they will, if there's no profit for them

Cough cough private health and insurance industry is pretty successful and profitable (Berkshire Hathaway for example).

[Wealthatonia]

what are you doing to maintain your citizen's privacy with that large government?

I am pretty sure we are straying off the topic of the proposal at hand. So we should probably find somewhere else to discuss this. But short answer - why would ensuring citizens can be looked after require violating their privacy? The two are entirely unrelated.

oh, I think they are related, when the government can know the health of its citizens from a database, then it could be pretty easy for your leaders to abuse that power and even breaks the hippocratic oath.

[Tinfect Diplomatic Enclave]

Recognizing that stock exchanges provide corporations and governments the ability to raise funds,

The new Imperial Delegation, finally, turns back up in the halls of the World Assembly. It is immediately obvious that this is a matter for Civil Oversight, and the statement is begun by Feren."The former within this clause is of relevance only within Member-States which maintain economic systems structured around market environments; the latter, is not of concern for Member-States which manage their own economies effectively, or do not allow private control over the State."

Further recognizing that there is a significant amount of capital that could be invested outside of any given country’s borders,

"Something of quite small concern for any State which is committed to its own development and that of its people, and those states which have little desire to bend the economies of foreign-states to the service of their own."

Also noting that nations which have invested in the economies of other nations are less likely to enter an armed conflict,

"No, they merely to seek to manipulate the economy of the foreign nation in an attempt to enforce its will upon it. The Imperium does not consider this to be a superior situation."

Eacts
[list=1]1.That all national stock exchanges shall be open to the citizens of any World Assembly member state.[list=a]a.This section may be waived between the investors and exchanges of nations engaged in a direct military conflict, embargo, or as part of sanctions.

"And what of Member-States that do not allow Stock-Exchange at all, or those that do not wish to allow foreign control over their economies? This seems to be little more than attempt by powerful Member-States to economically strong-arm lesser nations into their service. The Imperium sees little reason to allow this to occur on any greater scale than is already the case; even less to support an expansion of the ability to do so."

The ISEC shall also be responsible for regulating the exchanges on which currencies are traded.

"And why cannot Member-States be trusted to guide their own economies? An International Organization has absolutely no business in the matter of internal economies on this matter."

With the response of the Imperium relayed, Seretis steps forward to deliver the formal position of the Imperium; "As stated by Representative Ferren, the Imperium sees little reason to support this legislation, and considers it a pathetic attempt by exploitative Member-States to secure yet further World Assembly legitimacy and mandate in their attempt to control foreign states through subversive means. The Imperium of Tinfect therefore formally condemns this legislation, and the United Federated States. We will not support this legislation, nor any future derivation upon it."

[Wealthatonia]

Recognizing that stock exchanges provide corporations and governments the ability to raise funds,

The new Imperial Delegation, finally, turns back up in the halls of the World Assembly. It is immediately obvious that this is a matter for Civil Oversight, and the statement is begun by Feren."The former within this clause is of relevance only within Member-States which maintain economic systems structured around market environments; the latter, is not of concern for Member-States which manage their own economies effectively, or do not allow private control over the State."

Further recognizing that there is a significant amount of capital that could be invested outside of any given country’s borders,

"Something of quite small concern for any State which is committed to its own development and that of its people, and those states which have little desire to bend the economies of foreign-states to the service of their own."

Also noting that nations which have invested in the economies of other nations are less likely to enter an armed conflict,

"No, they merely to seek to manipulate the economy of the foreign nation in an attempt to enforce its will upon it. The Imperium does not consider this to be a superior situation."

Eacts
[list=1]1.That all national stock exchanges shall be open to the citizens of any World Assembly member state.[list=a]a.This section may be waived between the investors and exchanges of nations engaged in a direct military conflict, embargo, or as part of sanctions.

"And what of Member-States that do not allow Stock-Exchange at all, or those that do not wish to allow foreign control over their economies? This seems to be little more than attempt by powerful Member-States to economically strong-arm lesser nations into their service. The Imperium sees little reason to allow this to occur on any greater scale than is already the case; even less to support an expansion of the ability to do so."

The ISEC shall also be responsible for regulating the exchanges on which currencies are traded.

"And why cannot Member-States be trusted to guide their own economies? An International Organization has absolutely no business in the matter of internal economies on this matter."

With the response of the Imperium relayed, Seretis steps forward to deliver the formal position of the Imperium; "As stated by Representative Ferren, the Imperium sees little reason to support this legislation, and considers it a pathetic attempt by exploitative Member-States to secure yet further World Assembly legitimacy and mandate in their attempt to control foreign states through subversive means. The Imperium of Tinfect therefore formally condemns this legislation, and the United Federated States. We will not support this legislation, nor any future derivation upon it."

When this passes, we'll happily invest in your markets and improve them

[Tinfect Diplomatic Enclave]

When this passes, we'll happily invest in your markets and improve them

Rehlan responds rather quickly, "Any unauthorized interference in the Economy of the Imperium will be considered an act of hostile coercion, and a violation of the sovereignty and independence of the Imperium, and therefore an act of war. Your Nation will be subject to orbital bombardment followed by deployment of Imperial Legionary Forces to restore order following the collapse of your Government."

Feren adds on to this, "And I should note that private businesses within the Imperium are strictly restricted in scale, and quite scarce in field to begin with, there are few markets you could invest in, and fewer still that have the legal ability to continue expansion. It would be something of a waste, from a business perspective."

[Wealthatonia]

When this passes, we'll happily invest in your markets and improve them

Rehlan responds rather quickly, "Any unauthorized interference in the Economy of the Imperium will be considered an act of hostile coercion, and a violation of the sovereignty and independence of the Imperium, and therefore an act of war. Your Nation will be subject to orbital bombardment followed by deployment of Imperial Legionary Forces to restore order following the collapse of your Government."

Feren adds on to this, "And I should note that private businesses within the Imperium are strictly restricted in scale, and quite scarce in field to begin with, there are few markets you could invest in, and fewer still that have the legal ability to continue expansion. It would be something of a waste, from a business perspective."

Ok ambassador, 1, our capital city is underground, 2 we have an orbital platform as well and we make use of drones to defend ourselves, if you make any attempt to fire that platform in our city OR destroy our platform, please know this issue has been brought up twice so we have a backup. I am positive whatever you throw at us, we can spend our money on developing new ways to destroy your government. Am I clear?

OOC: Could our nations enter a cold war for RP purposes?

[Wealthatonia]

and also ambassador, i would l like to make this clear, the Wealthatonian Black Market is estimated to make almost as much as your entire economy.

[Tinfect Diplomatic Enclave]

Ok ambassador,

"Seretis is the Envoy, I work for Military Oversight." Interjects Rahlen,

1, our capital city is underground,

"So was the entirety of the Serathi Hive on Mirev Two. They're extinct now."

2 we have an orbital platform as well and we make use of drones to defend ourselves, if you make any attempt to fire that platform in our city OR destroy our platform, please know this issue has been brought up twice so we have a backup

"Oh, I get it, you think we're like you primitives. Let me put it you like this; The Imperium has been doing this for over Four-Hundred Years, and we've driven two species to extinction. It really doesn't matter if you have two platforms or twenty platforms; we could probably wipe out your entire Civilization with a Ballistarius alone."

I am positive whatever you throw at us, we can spend our money on developing new ways to destroy your government. Am I clear?

"I look forward to seeing your unique and expensive surrender when your Military and Government centers get burned off the face of the planet."

and also ambassador, i would l like to make this clear, the Wealthatonian Black Market is estimated to make almost as much as your entire economy.

Feren, in what is either an poor attempt to defuse the situation, or to simply get a word in, cuts in at this, "I'm not sure what statistics you are looking at, but if your Black Market outproduces an Interstellar Imperium of 28 inhabited planets then there are two possibilities, either your Government is grossly incompetent, or your Government has access to hilariously flawed information."

OOC: Could our nations enter a cold war for RP purposes?

OOC:
Given that the Imperium is an FT Nation that could genuinely wipe out your entirely civilization with a Ballistarius alone, that would not be a good idea. Rahlen doesn't actually have any significant power in the Military, but it's generally not a good idea to press the matter with the Isolationist Militaristic Dictatorship.

[Araraukar]

I don't believe Wealthatonia was a member of the World Assembly at the time of this resolution, and our private hospitals do a fine job of saving lives without government intervention.

When your nation joined the WA is irrelevant, you're still bound by all the applicable¹ resolutions.

¹OOC: Of course if you don't have, say, any elections, then election-related resolutions might as well not exist for your nation.

---

OOC: Holy shit, it (rGDP) keeps going up. Recessions happen, some of them are bigger than other ones, but my God man, it (capital stock) keeps going up! Heavens, it (rGDP) keeps going up!

OOC: ...none of which was the point? Points were, 1) nothing is an endless money generator, 2) some people will always lose money in stock market crashes, 3) depressions/recessions are not the same as a stock market crash and 4) there have been cases where such a crash has been caused by something that the regulations that currently exist, would've prevented. Granted, mainly because they were set in place to prevent whatever caused the crash in the first place...

---

Cough cough private health and insurance industry is pretty successful and profitable (Berkshire Hathaway for example).

OOC: Is that OOC? It sounds like a RL reference, so it's probably OOC. You responded to an IC comment by Araraukar's ambassador, not me, the player that lives on RL Earth. When I write as my out-of-character self, the posts or parts of posts are always maked OOC. My ambassador character can't "hear" things said OOCly, so OOC examples don't work, I'm afraid. You need to wrap your points into RP to present them in IC.

---

"Seretis is the Envoy, I work for Military Oversight." Interjects Rahlen [...] So was the entirety of the Serathi Hive on Mirev Two. They're extinct now."

Are you sure you're not an ambassador? You sure sound like one of the newbie ambassadors who strut here at their first big diplomatic gig and think that waving their metaphorical clubs is going to get them anything but contempt. Seriously, if you're not the ambassador, maybe you should stop trying to destroy what Overseer Markhov built.

"I look forward to seeing your unique and expensive surrender when your Military and Government centers get burned off the face of the planet."

Hey, Seretis was it? Could you keep your dog from barking so much? She's rather spoiling the conversational value of this debate.

but it's generally not a good idea to press the matter with the Isolationist Militaristic Dictatorship.

OOC: But it's entirely fine to bug them where they're harmless.

And on the same note, I know Tinfect knows anything Janis says is meant to be taken entirely in IC, but just wanted to point that out in case someone thinks I'm being OOCly offensive.

[Wealthatonia]

Ok ambassador,

"Seretis is the Envoy, I work for Military Oversight." Interjects Rahlen,

1, our capital city is underground,

"So was the entirety of the Serathi Hive on Mirev Two. They're extinct now."

2 we have an orbital platform as well and we make use of drones to defend ourselves, if you make any attempt to fire that platform in our city OR destroy our platform, please know this issue has been brought up twice so we have a backup

"Oh, I get it, you think we're like you primitives. Let me put it you like this; The Imperium has been doing this for over Four-Hundred Years, and we've driven two species to extinction. It really doesn't matter if you have two platforms or twenty platforms; we could probably wipe out your entire Civilization with a Ballistarius alone."

I am positive whatever you throw at us, we can spend our money on developing new ways to destroy your government. Am I clear?

"I look forward to seeing your unique and expensive surrender when your Military and Government centers get burned off the face of the planet."

and also ambassador, i would l like to make this clear, the Wealthatonian Black Market is estimated to make almost as much as your entire economy.

Feren, in what is either an poor attempt to defuse the situation, or to simply get a word in, cuts in at this, "I'm not sure what statistics you are looking at, but if your Black Market outproduces an Interstellar Imperium of 28 inhabited planets then there are two possibilities, either your Government is grossly incompetent, or your Government has access to hilariously flawed information."

OOC: Could our nations enter a cold war for RP purposes?

OOC:
Given that the Imperium is an FT Nation that could genuinely wipe out your entirely civilization with a Ballistarius alone, that would not be a good idea. Rahlen doesn't actually have any significant power in the Military, but it's generally not a good idea to press the matter with the Isolationist Militaristic Dictatorship.

Ok, never mind if you're going to god mod

[Imperium Anglorum]

Factor returns to capital, over the last century, have been relatively constant. To claim that they aren't doesn't abide with the facts or with obviously visible economic proxies for capital market value (e.g. capital stock, real GDP, etc).

[Lord Dominator]

"Ambassador, It seems to me that clause 1a doesn't have any options for stopping what I would call predatory investment other than laying of sanctions, embargoes, or warfare, all of which may not be desired. To be clear, by predatory foreign investment I am thinking of the possibily of Nation S investing in Nation D's business' for the purpose of taking over or unfairly manipulating the economy of D."

"Also, I have no idea what Eacts means."

[Wealthatonia]

Don't like it? invest in your own economy.

[United Federated States of Omega]

The ISEC shall also be responsible for regulating the exchanges on which currencies are traded.

"And why cannot Member-States be trusted to guide their own economies? An International Organization has absolutely no business in the matter of internal economies on this matter."

With the response of the Imperium relayed, Seretis steps forward to deliver the formal position of the Imperium; "As stated by Representative Ferren, the Imperium sees little reason to support this legislation, and considers it a pathetic attempt by exploitative Member-States to secure yet further World Assembly legitimacy and mandate in their attempt to control foreign states through subversive means. The Imperium of Tinfect therefore formally condemns this legislation, and the United Federated States. We will not support this legislation, nor any future derivation upon it."

I would like to address this point. The ISEC is not regulating all exchanges. This provision allows them to only regulate exchanges where currencies are traded. Individual states may regulate any other exchanges however they see fit.

[Jarish Inyo]

Which is unacceptable. Along with forcing nations to open their exchanges to foreign investment. The WA shouldn't tell nations how to run their exchanges or economy.

[Kalata]

oh hi! we lif in postscarcitie soceity so thiz wouldnt effect uz in any reel wai. however fr lez advancd netions we can se teh benefitz regardin economic growth. teh richest netionz wif scarcitie iz generale onez wif capitalis system sins they dont haz teh predictif logisticz enfrastructure to runed such neshun. fr them thiz would go long wai in insurin teh necesary capitel accumulashun fr growth. dus, wee suhporht dis inishative.

[Jarish Inyo]

If you want to open your markets to foreign investors that's your choice. But no nation should be forced to open their markets to foreign investment.

[United Federated States of Omega]

OOC: So is it safe for me to submit this proposal at this point?

[Christian Democrats]

OOC: So is it safe for me to submit this proposal at this point?

In my opinion, two clauses need to be tweaked:

1. That all national stock exchanges shall be open to the citizens of any World Assembly member state.

What is a national stock exchange, and what distinguishes it from other kinds of stock exchanges?

a. The ISEC shall also be responsible for regulating the exchanges on which currencies are traded.

According to what criteria? Your proposal provides no guidance.

[Wealthatonia]

OOC: So is it safe for me to submit this proposal at this point?

Yes do so!