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[PASSED] Trade of Endangered Organisms

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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:38 pm

OOC: *pulls out the Proposal ScalpelTM. Let's see what this beastie had for its last lunch! Also, written while sleep-deprived, so typos may be had a-plenty.

Ransium wrote:Recognizing its members' continued commitment to the preservation of endangered organisms,

This being the opening statement, you need to make nations feel good about being on your side, so I'd suggest something like "Applauding its members' continued efforts on the preservation of endangered organisms".

Noting the tangible benefits of endangered species preservation, such as the development of medicines, industrial materials, and ecosystem services, the loss of which has the potential to cause extreme harm to member nations populations,

This sounds more like an argument for Free Trade category than Environmental, because "the loss of which" seems to refer to the industries rather than the ecosystems/endangered species. Perhaps this should be clarified, possibly by poking at the way the sentence is structured.

Concerned that illegal collection and smuggling of endangered organisms could undermine preservation efforts,

This should be near the top of these arguments, certainly above the possible industry losses.

Hereby, subject to any limitations set by earlier resolutions that are still in force, including the fact that trade involving certain groups of organisms may already be covered separately by such legislation,

Why any of that after "hereby" is needed? Is there one or more extant resolutions you fear could render this one illegal? If so, which ones?

1. Instructs WAESC (the World Assembly Endangered Species Committee)

Full committee name first, shortening in parentheses.

and WA member nations' governments to cooperate with each other in creating and maintaining up-to-date lists

That reads like the member nations' governments also needed to cooperate with each other, which, though preferable, might just not happen due to various diplomatic reasons. Perhaps, rather than speak of the member nations in plural, speak in singular. It'll still apply to all the member nations.

of species, and of local populations within species, that qualify as 'Endangered';

Okay, this is where it goes into serious micromanagement territory. I know what you mean, but you'll run into the issue of what counts as a local population? Is it all the individuals in a certain nation? Province? Municipality? Valley? Pond? And while I understand there's no easy fix for this, perhaps you should instead say "of the populations of species and sub-species", as that will let you add the variations of an organism that are worth preserving, requires the populations to be monitored, and yet dodges the issue of "local".

2. Bans the international import and export into or from member nations of all organisms from endangered species or local populations, and of goods derived wholly or partly from said organisms, except when any of the following exemptions apply:

Again I'd change "local populations" for "sub-species". Also, I think the wording goes "wholly or in part". Also, using both "except" and "exemption" seems unnecessary, though that's just a nitpick from my days in school, I'd probably say that with "unless any of the following exemptions applies".

i) They are specimens collected or being repatriated as part of a scientifically run species restoration program, or they are goods being imported or exported as part of a scientifically run restoration program;

OOC: Again a tiny nitpick; the resolution format would look better if you used the list code and alphabets for these subclauses.
In my understanding "repatriation" only applies to persons or currency. At the very least using it here makes the sentence a little weird. Would just "returned" work? Also, I have to ask, what "goods [made of endangered species]" would be imported or exported as part of a restoration program? "Goods" usually refers to inanimate objects, not live samples.

ii) They are specimens which originate from a non-wild source such as a farm, laboratory, or nursery, and birthed or grown from seeds, spores, or other material, that itself was collected from either a non-wild source or as part of a species restoration program;

I would add "eggs" into that list, since I've actually heard someone in these halls complain about egg-laying species "not giving birth". And you don't really grow anything from an egg, you hatch something from one.

And why do you need to repeat the "or as part of a species restoration program", when you already say it in i)? It would make more sense if i) dealt with wild sources and ii) with non-wild sources. Unless the "or" is an unnecessary word in the sentence.

iii) They are goods derived from organisms that fall under exemption 'ii';

Unnecessary. Combine this with ii) as "specimens or goods derived from".

iv) They are goods that were derived from specimens in a manner which does not increase the species' endangerment and were collected purely for scientific or species restoration purposes;

Is "endangerment" even a word? Wouldn't "does not further endanger the species" work?

v) They are durable goods such as lumber, which can be historically or scientifically proven to have been processed 10 years before the species was first noted as being endangered by WAESC;

Exact numbers like that are always a bad idea, especially as "10 years" may be vastly different time interval, depending on how long the year is on any given planet. Just drop the "10 years" and go with the addition to the WAESC list, as that'll be the same date for everyone.

vi) They are widely dispersed reproductive material such as pollen or reproductive spores which are present at incidental levels on other trade materials;

I'd go with "such as seeds, pollen, eggs or spores". Many insect eggs and plant seeds can be too tiny to detect easily. Although, I'm wondering if "they are unintentionally distributed trace amounts of reproductive materials such as seeds, pollen, eggs or spores in or on other trade goods" might work better, since "unintentional" means that sapients did not mean to include them, and "trace amounts" pretty much means "not a lot". Also I would put the "in or on" in there, since if you export a bag of the finest sand for whatever purpose, that may have some seeds or pollen in it, rather than on it. And "trade goods" instead of "materials", because "materials" can be read to mean only non-processed stuff.

3. Urges member nations to pass legislation preventing the internal transport and monetization of endangered species and derived products within their own borders;

I know what you want to say, but it sounds a bit clumsy. Maybe "preventing transporting of and profiting from endangered species and products derived from them, within their own borders" instead? That would also prevent transporting the goods, which would further prevent profiting from them. Scientific things usually aren't done for direct profit, so they'll still be excused by the previous clauses. Also, why are you only urging? Your area of effect is "all businesses", which is usually considered to have the same effect as "significant or strong" strength in other categories. You should have more requirements. Either this or clause 4 should be a requirement, not simply a "pretty please?"

4. Requests member nations ardently enforce measures designed to stop illegal collection and trade of endangered species, and of products derived from endangered species, within their jurisdictions.

I would rewrite that as "Requires member nations, within their jurisdictions, to ardently enforce measures designed to stop illegal collection and trade of endangered species and products derived from them". It just flows better that way.
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Ransium
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Postby Ransium » Sat Nov 05, 2016 10:13 am

Thank you for your meticulous review of my proposal it means a lot to me and was quite helpful. I've more or less adopted most of your suggestions (often using your suggested wording) and the logic things which flow from them, I am only noting here what I didn't do:
Araraukar wrote:
Hereby, subject to any limitations set by earlier resolutions that are still in force, including the fact that trade involving certain groups of organisms may already be covered separately by such legislation,

Why any of that after "hereby" is needed? Is there one or more extant resolutions you fear could render this one illegal? If so, which ones?


This is specifically about "Sensible Limits on Hunting"'s discussion of endangered species. It only applies to animals which are hunted, this resolution is extends protection to all endangered life.

Araraukar wrote:
ii) They are specimens which originate from a non-wild source such as a farm, laboratory, or nursery, and birthed or grown from seeds, spores, or other material, that itself was collected from either a non-wild source or as part of a species restoration program;


*snip*
And why do you need to repeat the "or as part of a species restoration program", when you already say it in i)? It would make more sense if i) dealt with wild sources and ii) with non-wild sources. Unless the "or" is an unnecessary word in the sentence.


As some nations have requested, allowing restoration programs to transfer some specimens to commercial sources could be beneficial in some circumstances so I have left this part unchanged to make it clear that is allowed.

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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Sat Nov 05, 2016 11:58 am

Ransium wrote:This is specifically about "Sensible Limits on Hunting"'s discussion of endangered species. It only applies to animals which are hunted, this resolution is extends protection to all endangered life.

Did you notice that Endangered Species Protection also mentions hunting?
4) Should a species become endangered, the WAESC is responsible for protecting the species' remaining habitat through halting business or residential encroachment into the species' habitat, and by reducing the amount of pollution in the species' habitat. The WAESC may also severely restrict the hunting of endangered species.
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Postby Ransium » Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:24 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Ransium wrote:This is specifically about "Sensible Limits on Hunting"'s discussion of endangered species. It only applies to animals which are hunted, this resolution is extends protection to all endangered life.

Did you notice that Endangered Species Protection also mentions hunting?
4) Should a species become endangered, the WAESC is responsible for protecting the species' remaining habitat through halting business or residential encroachment into the species' habitat, and by reducing the amount of pollution in the species' habitat. The WAESC may also severely restrict the hunting of endangered species.


Here's the exact relevant wordage from Sensible limits of hunting for the reference of all as well:
5. Requires that meat, captive wild animals, and other goods obtained through hunting, may only be exported from or imported into member nations if they are correctly certified as having been
A. Obtained through legal hunting;
B. Tested properly for risks to public health, and confirmed as safe;
and
C. Taken only from non-endangered stocks, unless they are (i) live animals, embryos, or gametes, being sent for use in scientifically-run breeding programmes; (ii) previous exports being repatriated; (ii) live animals taken from captivity, being sent for release in the proper environment; (iv) obtained in ways that did not increase their stock’s endangerment, and being sent for academic use; or (v) materials included in artworks or antiques, and originally taken (from stocks then not obviously endangered) at least 99 years ago;


I don't think your asserting this, but I do not feel either of these resolution make my resolution unnecessary, because the word hunting cannot be reasonably applied to anything but some animals. Sensible Limits of Hunting is clearly directly targeted at animals and although I myself have argued 'Endangered Species Protection' is targeted at all lifeforms and wouldn't be totally against a reading of hunting as a 'take' of any life in a broad sense for the sake of argument (although I'd have to read the whole resolution again to decide whether I truly buy that), it still does not regulate the import/export of illegally harvested life, and the import/export of endangered species from non-member nations which are not bound by the WA to regulate endangered species in the same way.

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Postby Aclion » Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:36 pm

How would this impact conservation programs dependent on trophy hunting of endangered species?
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Ransium
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Postby Ransium » Sat Nov 05, 2016 12:45 pm

Aclion wrote:How would this impact conservation programs dependent on trophy hunting of endangered species?


I feel that this is part of an umbrella restoration effort and therefore would be exempted under 2a.

Edit: After a bit of reflection I feel the recent switching of 'samples' with the previous word 'goods' maybe to restrictive and the cause of your question. I'm switching it back as it gives more flexibility to possible restoration programs strategies.
Last edited by Ransium on Sat Nov 05, 2016 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:57 pm

OOC: Just realized I made a little grammar typo in what you copied:
They are unintentionally distributed in trace amounts of reproductive or other microscopic materials such as seeds, pollen, eggs or spores that are in or on other trade goods;

I think that would make the sentence better. :)
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Ransium
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Postby Ransium » Sat Nov 05, 2016 5:16 pm

Araraukar wrote:OOC: Just realized I made a little grammar typo in what you copied:
They are unintentionally distributed in trace amounts of reproductive or other microscopic materials such as seeds, pollen, eggs or spores that are in or on other trade goods;

I think that would make the sentence better. :)


Since this a minor edit I've kept the same draft. I've taken your edit and changed the order of the sentence to make it a bit more clear.

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Postby Bears Armed » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:46 am

No more quibbles about the actual text, but for Category I still consider 'Moral Decency (Mild)' -- as was already used for 'Sensible Limits on Hunting' -- more appropriate than 'Environmental (All Businesses)'...
Last edited by Bears Armed on Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ransium » Sun Nov 06, 2016 7:30 am

Bears Armed wrote:No more quibbles about the actual text, but for Category I still consider 'Moral Decency (Mild)' -- as was already used for 'Sensible Limits on Hunting' -- more appropriate than 'Environmental (All Businesses)'...


Okay I'm willing to go there but I think you were right earlier when you said such a change would need to be addressed in the preamble. How about creating a new third argument (between the existing second and third)

"Bieleving sentient species have a moral imperative to make accommodations to protect endangered non sentient species when such accommodations are not overly burdensome or dangerous,"

Are there any problems with such an argument?
Last edited by Ransium on Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:43 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Araraukar
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Postby Araraukar » Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:43 am

As it now is, it's cearly written as an environmental one. How could it be justified to magically become a Moral Decency one?

OOC: We really do need more categories for Environmental. Or strengths instead of AoE's.
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Postby Bears Armed » Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:53 am

Araraukar wrote:As it now is, it's cearly written as an environmental one. How could it be justified to magically become a Moral Decency one?

OOC: We really do need more categories for Environmental. Or strengths instead of AoE's.

OOC: In terms of game mechanics the Moral Decency category simply involves the passage of laws that reduce individual people's rights, and proposals don't have to be explained in terms of any specific code of morality in order to qualify. for comparison, here's the preamble from 'Sensible Limits on Hunting':
The World Assembly,

Recognising the wide ranges of cultures and economic systems that exist across its member nations,

Aware that hunting wild animals for their meat (which is sometimes called either 'bushmeat' or 'game') and maybe for other reasons too is an important activity within some of those cultures and economic systems, and that some people actually rely on those hunts for their own survival,

Concerned that increases in national populations and easier access to hunting grounds may increase levels of hunting, and might also cause the extension of hunting to non-traditional prey species, which could seriously threaten the survival of local stocks or even entire species,

Noting that some meats and other goods obtained by hunting are traded internationally, and that increased populations and/or wealth in importing nations may also promote increases in hunting,

Concerned also that meat obtained by hunting may be likelier than meat from domestic stocks to carry parasites and diseases that could affect people,

Determined that levels of hunting and the international trade in the products of hunting should therefore be regulated, to prevent over-hunting and to protect public health;
Last edited by Bears Armed on Sun Nov 06, 2016 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Population = just under 20 million. Economy = only Thriving. Average Life expectancy = c.60 years. If the nation is classified as 'Anarchy' there still is a [strictly limited] national government... and those aren't "biker gangs", they're traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies', generally respected rather than feared.
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Postby Ransium » Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:35 am

So do you think I can switch it to moral decency (mild) as is? Do you think my proposed additional moral justification would help or hurt?

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Postby Araraukar » Sun Nov 06, 2016 11:31 am

Ransium wrote:So do you think I can switch it to moral decency (mild) as is? Do you think my proposed additional moral justification would help or hurt?

OOC: I'll let you and Bears make the changes you both think will make it suitable for MD, and then I'll come back to poke it. :P
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Postby Bears Armed Mission » Mon Nov 07, 2016 10:47 am

Ransium wrote:So do you think I can switch it to moral decency (mild) as is? Do you think my proposed additional moral justification would help or hurt?

Probably, but can you give me a day to think about this?
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Postby Ransium » Mon Nov 07, 2016 11:25 am

Bears Armed Mission wrote:
Ransium wrote:So do you think I can switch it to moral decency (mild) as is? Do you think my proposed additional moral justification would help or hurt?

Probably, but can you give me a day to think about this?


Take all the time you need :)

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Postby The Rouge Christmas State » Tue Nov 08, 2016 11:30 am

I would support this.
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Ransium
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Postby Ransium » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:08 am

I have made a new update, the main change being a category change to moral decency mild and an addition of a new line:

Believing member nations have a moral obligation to make some accommodations to protect endangered non sentient organisms including prevention of illegal collection and smuggling;


I'm currently looking to submit this sometime between November 23rd and 26th.

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Postby Imperium Anglorum » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:24 am

Ransium wrote:Believing member nations have a moral obligation to make some accommodations to protect endangered non sentient organisms including prevention of illegal collection and smuggling;

Tell me why nations have a moral obligation before simply asserting that such an obligation exists.

They are goods that were derived from specimens in a manner which does not further endanger the species and were collected purely for scientific purposes;

PARSONS: We firmly believe that we ought not restrict economic rationale which would further the goal of preventing species-wide extinction. Therefore, I would support the removal of the striked section of this clause.
Last edited by Imperium Anglorum on Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:28 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Postby Ransium » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:04 am

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Ransium wrote:Believing member nations have a moral obligation to make some accommodations to protect endangered non sentient organisms including prevention of illegal collection and smuggling;

Tell me why nations have a moral obligation before simply asserting that such an obligation exists.


Something like:

Asserting that a sentient species directly causing the extinction of a non-sentient species is immoral, excepting cases where the sentient species derives a clear and overwhelming benefit from the extinction, such as the non-sentient species is parasitic to the sentient species,


(?)

Imperium Anglorum wrote:
They are goods that were derived from specimens in a manner which does not further endanger the species and were collected purely for scientific purposes;

PARSONS: We firmly believe that we ought not restrict economic rationale which would further the goal of preventing species-wide extinction. Therefore, I would support the removal of the striked section of this clause.


How about if I insert 'and under the guidance of a species restoration program' for the phrase you have identified to be stricken, so it as least clear who is deciding what constitutes 'not further endanger[ing] the species'.
Last edited by Ransium on Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby Bears Armed Mission » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:59 am

Ransium wrote:I have made a new update, the main change being a category change to moral decency mild and an addition of a new line:

Believing member nations have a moral obligation to make some accommodations to protect endangered non sentient organisms including prevention of illegal collection and smuggling;

There will already be complaints from governments defending their right to take only a short-term view when setting policy. If you specify that the moral obligation is to "non-sentient organisms" then I'd expect those complainants to be joined by quite a few who say that benefits to their nations peoples (or economies) come before any "duty" to non-sentients, so I'd leave that clause as more along the lines of
[box]Believing member nations therefore have a moral obligation to take action against such illegal collection and smuggling;


Imperium Anglorum wrote:
Ransium wrote:Believing member nations have a moral obligation to make some accommodations to protect endangered non sentient organisms including prevention of illegal collection and smuggling;

Tell me why nations have a moral obligation before simply asserting that such an obligation exists.

I suggested that Ransium add a clause expressing that belief, with wording along the lines that I've given above [in this post], so that people would [hopefully] find it easier to see why the proposal was being submitted as 'Moral Decency' rather than 'Environmental'. If people really want a fuller explanation then how about
Believing that because extinction is irreversible, and letting a species that currently exists in only one nation become extinct therefore permanently renders all nations incapable of ever acquiring populations of that species, member nations have a moral obligation -- not only to their own peoples today, but also to future generations of those peoples and to the international community -- to take action against such illegal collection and smuggling;
?
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Postby Ransium » Fri Nov 18, 2016 9:34 am

Bears Armed Mission wrote:
Believing that because extinction is irreversible, and letting a species that currently exists in only one nation become extinct therefore permanently renders all nations incapable of ever acquiring populations of that species, member nations have a moral obligation -- not only to their own peoples today, but also to future generations of those peoples and to the international community -- to take action against such illegal collection and smuggling;
?


Okay I created a new draft adopting this language and making my compromise suggested change on clause iii.

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WA Kitty Kops
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Posts: 323
Founded: Oct 08, 2013
Ex-Nation

Postby WA Kitty Kops » Fri Nov 18, 2016 1:38 pm

A small black cat walks into the debate chamber, hops onto the table behind which the Araraukarian ambassador is gently snoring, and sits there for a while, appearing to read the proposal draft and whatever notes the sleeping ambassador has made. Then it hops down from the table, makes its way to the Ransium ambassador, rubbing against their legs.

"Why's you put that category on it? It still says all the things an envy- enviur- envor- a nature-friendly thing would say. Doesn't look like it wants to tell people they can't do something because it's not right to do that something."
The Head Inshpekshuuner looks like a dark grey kitten with yellow eyes and a small white patch on his chest, he's about 4-5 months old. He's much smarter than you could guess from the way he talks.
-- my main nation is Araraukar
NERVUN wrote:And my life flashed in front of my eyes while I did and I honestly expected my computer to explode after I entered the warning.

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Ransium
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Posts: 6788
Founded: Oct 17, 2006
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ransium » Sun Nov 20, 2016 5:23 pm

I'm not sure what is hoped for. Comparing my proposal to the preamble for 'Sensible Limits of Hunting' I think they are making equally equivalently strong arguments for the issue at hand to be a moral decency issue, in fact with Bears Armed new wordage I'd say this ones argument to be moral decency is stronger. The topic matter of the two resolutions are quite similar as well.

[OOC] Just to state what I think we all know. Environmental/All Industries is too strong of a categorization for this proposal. Since there is no single industry (of the available) I could logically argue that this resolution falls under if I submit it as environmental, I feel I have no choice but to submit it as All Industries. I think we have a decent argument now for why this can be submitted as Moral Decency / Low Strength which is a more appropriate strength classification. If there was a way I could submit this as Environmental / Low Strength I probably would, but I see no reason that extinction cannot be viewed through the frame of moral decency as we now argue.

Since the next few days I'll have a bit more time than I normally would, and I intended to manually send out telegrams to campaign, I would love to submit this in the next few. I don't want to cut short any last criticisms of the proposal particularly the relatively recent re-framing as a moral decency proposal, but I would also be quite happy if I could submit this in the next few days.

Commended by SC 236,
WA Delegate of Forest from March 20th, 2007 to August 19, 2020.
Author of WA Resolutions: SC 221, SC 224, SC 233, SC 243, SC 265, GA 403, GA 439, GA 445,GA 463,GA 465,
Issues Editor since January 20th, 2017 with some down time.
Author of 27 issues. First editor of 44.
Moderator since November 10th 2017 with some down time.

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Ransium
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 6788
Founded: Oct 17, 2006
Democratic Socialists

Postby Ransium » Mon Nov 21, 2016 7:22 pm

I would definitely have time to conduct a telegraph campaign for this tomorrow. Any final thoughts before submission?

Commended by SC 236,
WA Delegate of Forest from March 20th, 2007 to August 19, 2020.
Author of WA Resolutions: SC 221, SC 224, SC 233, SC 243, SC 265, GA 403, GA 439, GA 445,GA 463,GA 465,
Issues Editor since January 20th, 2017 with some down time.
Author of 27 issues. First editor of 44.
Moderator since November 10th 2017 with some down time.

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