Need help on a proposal

[New Leppikania]

So, I'm working on an "Interplanetary Rules of War" proposal, but I can't figure out what category to set it to. Can anyone help?

[Separatist Peoples]

So, I'm working on an "Interplanetary Rules of War" proposal, but I can't figure out what category to set it to. Can anyone help?

OOC: you could start by posting your proposal here, first.

[New Leppikania]

So, I'm working on an "Interplanetary Rules of War" proposal, but I can't figure out what category to set it to. Can anyone help?

OOC: you could start by posting your proposal here, first.

I haven't finished it yet. Should I finish it first?

[Imperium Anglorum]

OOC: you could start by posting your proposal here, first.

I haven't finished it yet. Should I finish it first?

You should post the draft up on here before attempting for a submission.

[New Leppikania]

I haven't finished it yet. Should I finish it first?

You should post the draft up on here before attempting for a submission.

Here's what I have so far:

The World Assembly,

Aware that battles in space can sometimes result in serious damage to, or in extreme cases, the destruction of, any planets nearby,

Realizing that this can affect all nations,

Hereby declares:

[list=I][*]Member states shall not construct or launch any satellite capable of destroying cities from orbit.

[*]Starships weighing 1000 tons or more should avoid deorbiting into civilian-inhabited planets, as this can ignite firestorms near the crash site.

[*]

[Separatist Peoples]

You should post the draft up on here before attempting for a submission.

Here's what I have so far:

The World Assembly,

Aware that battles in space can sometimes result in serious damage to, or in extreme cases, the destruction of, any planets nearby,

Realizing that this can affect all nations,

Hereby declares:

[list=I][*]Member states shall not construct or launch any satellite capable of destroying cities from orbit.

[*]Starships weighing 1000 tons or more should avoid deorbiting into civilian-inhabited planets, as this can ignite firestorms near the crash site.

[*]

OOC: Global Disarmament. Probably Signifcant, since it outlaws huge swathes of orbital weapons.

[Imperium Anglorum]

You should post the draft up on here before attempting for a submission.

Here's what I have so far:

The World Assembly,

Aware that battles in space can sometimes result in serious damage to, or in extreme cases, the destruction of, any planets nearby,

Realizing that this can affect all nations,

Hereby declares:

1. Member states shall not construct or launch any satellite capable of destroying cities from orbit.
   
2. Starships weighing 1000 tons or more should avoid deorbiting into civilian-inhabited planets, as this can ignite firestorms near the crash site.
   

I don't think its passable, to be honest. The majority of WA votes take the WA as modern day. This is a FT-based proposal. Nobody can build 1000 tonne starships and the only satellites capable of destroying cities from orbit would be nuclear missile sats. So, you're stuck between the national sovereigntists (I am one) who think this shouldn't be regulated and the majority of the WA who doesn't care for FT tech wank.

[Tinfect]

Member states shall not construct or launch any satellite capable of destroying cities from orbit.

"Ambassador, stop there, that is extremely damaging to defensive strategies of even lesser-advanced Member States. Orbital Weapons, whether they are intended to target Orbital threats, or surface targets, are essential to the defensive strategies of many Member States, the Imperium included.

Further, the lack of definitions regarding city-destroying weapons, is quite worrying. A Particle Projection Cannon, if given enough time, could easily level an entire city, as, little in the way of structural design short of replacing most components with Military armour systems will limit the destructive capacity of the weapon. However, such a thing would be wasteful and inefficient.
In any case, this lack of definition effectively bans any reasonably powerful weapons systems from being placed on orbital constructs."

Starships weighing 1000 tons or more should avoid deorbiting into civilian-inhabited planets, as this can ignite firestorms near the crash site.

"An arbitrary limitation of 'weight', is meaningless. Weight is relative to the strength of the local gravitational fields. Perhaps you meant to refer to mass? In any case, this limitation is pointless micromanagement, rather, it would be, were this clause to actually mandate anything.

The Imperium suggests dropping this proposal before you progress further."

[New Leppikania]

Nobody can build 1000 tonne starships

OOC: I wouldn't be so sure. RL ISS weighs 419.6 tonnes.

[Wallenburg]

Nobody can build 1000 tonne starships

[OOC]I wouldn't be so sure. RL ISS weighs 419.6 tonnes.

OOC: The ISS doesn't have to propel itself.

[New Leppikania]

Okay, full version:

The World Assembly,

Aware that battles in space can sometimes result in serious damage to, or in extreme cases, the destruction of, any planets nearby,

Realizing that this can affect all nations,

Hereby declares:

1. Member states shall not construct or launch any satellite capable of destroying cities from orbit.
   
2. Starships weighing 1000 tonnes or more must be constructed in orbit, and cannot purposefully deorbit into civilian planets.
   
3. Space battles where one or more ships are broken into large pieces must be conducted at least 0.1 AU from the nearest inhabited planet.
   
4. People floating freely in space must be picked up by any passing ship unless said pick-up would endanger the ship.
   
5. Enemy troops picked up from space shall be treated as POWs.

[Wallenburg]

Okay, full version:

The World Assembly,

Aware that battles in space can sometimes result in serious damage to, or in extreme cases, the destruction of, any planets nearby,

"As the representative of a nation uninvolved in space travel, why should I care?"

Realizing that this can affect all nations,

"I don't envision orbital warfare affecting mine."

[*]Member states shall not construct or launch any satellite capable of destroying cities from orbit.

"So you wish to ban orbital weapons platforms. Why?"

[*]Starships weighing 1000 tonnes or more must be constructed in orbit, and cannot purposefully deorbit into civilian planets.

"Why? What's so magical about the 1000 ton threshold? What if a craft built in an environment where it weighs 10 tons enters an environment where it weighs 2000?"

[*]Space battles where one or more ships are broken into large pieces must be conducted at least 0.1 AU from the nearest inhabited planet.

"What if a criminal flees into orbit and stays within this range? The authorities cannot open fire on the criminal?"

[*]People floating freely in space must be picked up by any passing ship unless said pick-up would endanger the ship.

[*]Enemy troops picked up from space shall be treated as POWs.[/list]

"This I can agree with."

[Tinfect]

Okay, full version:

"It is disheartening that you elected to not only dismiss our recommendation, but to do so without even acknowledgement of our positions against the draft in its previous state. Hopefully you will be willing to accept criticism at this stage."

Aware that battles in space can sometimes result in serious damage to, or in extreme cases, the destruction of, any planets nearby,

"Yes, such is the nature of conflict in space. It also so happens that Planets often contain the vast majority of a Nation's population and Military Facilities. For obvious reasons, destruction of the latter, and occupation of the areas of the former are also common in interstellar warfare."

Realizing that this can affect all nations,

"In the sense that it is possible for all nations to go to war, yes. However, alternate interpretations of this statement may render it entirely untrue. I will point out here that not all nations exist on the same planet, or planets, in the case of the Imperium, as yours."

Member states shall not construct or launch any satellite capable of destroying cities from orbit.
Starships weighing 1000 tonnes or more must be constructed in orbit, and cannot purposefully deorbit into civilian planets.

"Please see our previous statement for the position of the Imperium on these matters."

Space battles where one or more ships are broken into large pieces must be conducted at least 0.1 AU from the nearest inhabited planet.

"This is not only impossible to enforce, but is absolutely unacceptable to any nation with the capabilities of Interstellar or Interplanetary travel. This would severely cripple any form of orbital defensive mechanism, requiring that constructs be moved, or deconstructed entirely to move to a higher orbit, and would allow Planetary Invasion forces to engage in landing without any consequence by simply jumping into the system within 0.1 AU from an inhabited world."

People floating freely in space must be picked up by any passing ship unless said pick-up would endanger the ship.

"Our Military Vessels will not stop to pick up fools that jumped out of their ship, hitchhikers, or anyone so colossally mad as to think floating about in space until they are picked up by a passing vessel is a good idea.

The Imperium remains opposed to this legislation, now on the grounds that it would cause irreparable damage to the Defensive Policies of the Imperium and other Member States."

[New Leppikania]

Okay, full version:

"It is disheartening that you elected to not only dismiss our recommendation, but to do so without even acknowledgement of our positions against the draft in its previous state. Hopefully you will be willing to accept criticism at this stage."

I wasn't dismissing it, I was just adding the clauses that I wrote when I finished my rough draft.

Realizing that this can affect all nations,

"In the sense that it is possible for all nations to go to war, yes. However, alternate interpretations of this statement may render it entirely untrue. I will point out here that not all nations exist on the same planet, or planets, in the case of the Imperium, as yours."

What alternate interpretations do you mean?

Member states shall not construct or launch any satellite capable of destroying cities from orbit.

"Ambassador, stop there, that is extremely damaging to defensive strategies of even lesser-advanced Member States. Orbital Weapons, whether they are intended to target Orbital threats, or surface targets, are essential to the defensive strategies of many Member States, the Imperium included.

Further, the lack of definitions regarding city-destroying weapons, is quite worrying. A Particle Projection Cannon, if given enough time, could easily level an entire city, as, little in the way of structural design short of replacing most components with Military armour systems will limit the destructive capacity of the weapon. However, such a thing would be wasteful and inefficient.
In any case, this lack of definition effectively bans any reasonably powerful weapons systems from being placed on orbital constructs."

How about "use to destroy a city" instead of "construct or launch?"

Starships weighing 1000 tons or more should avoid deorbiting into civilian-inhabited planets, as this can ignite firestorms near the crash site.

"An arbitrary limitation of 'weight', is meaningless. Weight is relative to the strength of the local gravitational fields. Perhaps you meant to refer to mass? In any case, this limitation is pointless micromanagement, rather, it would be, were this clause to actually mandate anything.

The Imperium suggests dropping this proposal before you progress further."

Yes, I meant mass.

Space battles where one or more ships are broken into large pieces must be conducted at least 0.1 AU from the nearest inhabited planet.

"This is not only impossible to enforce, but is absolutely unacceptable to any nation with the capabilities of Interstellar or Interplanetary travel. This would severely cripple any form of orbital defensive mechanism, requiring that constructs be moved, or deconstructed entirely to move to a higher orbit, and would allow Planetary Invasion forces to engage in landing without any consequence by simply jumping into the system within 0.1 AU from an inhabited world."

You would just need to make sure to break up the pieces of ships, or vaporize the ships, or board them.

People floating freely in space must be picked up by any passing ship unless said pick-up would endanger the ship.

"Our Military Vessels will not stop to pick up fools that jumped out of their ship, hitchhikers, or anyone so colossally mad as to think floating about in space until they are picked up by a passing vessel is a good idea.

So I guess it isn't quite with the affects-all-nations bit. I'll remove it in the next draft.

[Tinfect]

I wasn't dismissing it, I was just adding the clauses that I wrote when I finished my rough draft.

"Fair enough."

What alternate interpretations do you mean?

"The clause may be interpreted to imply that any conflict in space necessarily effects all member states, which is simply not the case. I will, however, admit to this being a quite strange interpretation, that, even if taken by a Member State, would have little to no effect on the legislation."

"How about "use to destroy a city" instead of "construct or launch?"

"Equally unacceptable. World Assembly legislation already exists to prevent the deliberate targeting of civilian populations, and adding this clause would simply be a further and entirely unnecessary complication of warfare. Utilization of orbital weapons platforms against targets on the surface is a key component of many defensive strategies, and would do little more than allow for a hostile force to more easily occupy the territory of a member state.

Yes, I meant mass.

"In which case, the clause ought to be removed. The restrictions of the clause are entirely arbitrary, and entirely unnecessary. The mandate that craft of certain mass must be constructed through orbital means, will be an unnecessary barrier to civilizations early into their interplanetary, or interstellar expansion, and the second portion, involving 'civilian planets' is complete nonsense."

You would just need to make sure to break up the pieces of ships, or vaporize the ships, or board them.

"Ah, yes, of course. Because it is reasonable and practical to waste ammunition and resources tearing already destroyed vessels into smaller shards that will be more difficult to collect and increasingly dangerous to orbital constructs. Even more so to create a weapon capable of single-handedly vaporizing an entire vessel, of course, it is not as though such a thing is entirely impossible by any reasonable thought! Or, even to throw military personnel into an actively hostile environment where an enemy force has every conceivable advantage. I can't imagine why we didn't think of it before.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

"While we're not inherently opposed to reasonable arms limitation, there's really very little here we can support. We operate no starships and have no non-WA contact with anyone who does, but even without that, this is untenable.

1. Member states shall not construct or launch any satellite capable of destroying cities from orbit.

"A very narrow reading of this clause would remove our orbital space-to-surface nuclear arsenal, rendering us unable to assault certain military targets best wrecked by fusion warheads - for example, large spaceports. Possibly we could live with that as long as precision orbital munitions are available. But a broad reading would also remove our strategic meteor herds, leaving us utterly without a deterrent against other nations' strategic weapons. That's simply unacceptable."

Starships weighing 1000 tonnes or more must be constructed in orbit, and cannot purposefully deorbit into civilian planets.

"Irrelevant to us, so no problem. In the event you changed the first word to 'spaceships,' I believe we could live with it. I assume you're thinking about radiation from the propulsion system when such a thing boosts, yes? In which case, rather than focusing on the mass, simply say that ships may not emit harmful amounts of radiation within planetary biospheres."

Space battles where one or more ships are broken into large pieces must be conducted at least 0.1 AU from the nearest inhabited planet.

"This ain't gonna fly. A nation may have a legitimate military interest in attacking low-orbiting or other near-planetary assets, and any near-planetary staging area is a legitimate target. You're also prohibiting any assault by aerospace interceptors against a large low-orbiting target, without regard to the target's behavior or legitimacy. There's really no redeeming goal that can be advanced by this clause."

People floating freely in space must be picked up by any passing ship unless said pick-up would endanger the ship.

Enemy troops picked up from space shall be treated as POWs.

"These provisions seem reasonable. Is there any reason to think space marines aren't already covered by the provisions of the Prisoners of War Accord? A standard issue pressure suit or space combat armor system is basically a kind of 'uniform' under that resolution, I would think."

[New Leppikania]

Okay, here's version 3:

The World Assembly,

Aware that battles in space can sometimes result in serious damage to, or in extreme cases, the destruction of, any planets nearby,

Realizing that this can affect all nations,

Hereby declares:

1. Member states are forbidden from using orbital weapons to destroy civilian establishments on the planet below.
   
2. Spaceships with masses of 1000 tonnes or more must be constructed in orbit, and cannot purposefully deorbit into civilian planets.
   
3. Space battles where one or more ships are broken into pieces 10m in diameter or larger must be conducted outside the gravity wells of civilian planets, as these pieces can harm civilian satellites. Inside gravity wells, one or more of the following methods must be used:

•Vaporization of spaceships
•Use of tractor beams to collect large fragments after the battle
•Repelling ships outside gravity wells before destroying them
•Boarding enemy ships

[Imperium Anglorum]

Okay, here's version 3:

The World Assembly,

Aware that battles in space can sometimes result in serious damage to, or in extreme cases, the destruction of, any planets nearby,

Realizing that this can affect all nations,

Hereby declares:

1. Member states are forbidden from using orbital weapons to destroy civilian establishments on the planet below.
   
2. Spaceships with masses of 1000 tonnes or more must be constructed in orbit, and cannot purposefully deorbit into civilian planets.
   
3. Space battles where one or more ships are broken into pieces 10m in diameter or larger must be conducted outside the gravity wells of civilian planets, as these pieces can harm civilian satellites. Inside gravity wells, one or more of the following methods must be used:

•Vaporization of spaceships
•Use of tractor beams to collect large fragments after the battle
•Repelling ships outside gravity wells before destroying them
•Boarding enemy ships

Put it in the OP.

[New Leppikania]

Okay, here's version 3:

The World Assembly,

Aware that battles in space can sometimes result in serious damage to, or in extreme cases, the destruction of, any planets nearby,

Realizing that this can affect all nations,

Hereby declares:

1. Member states are forbidden from using orbital weapons to destroy civilian establishments on the planet below.
   
2. Spaceships with masses of 1000 tonnes or more must be constructed in orbit, and cannot purposefully deorbit into civilian planets.
   
3. Space battles where one or more ships are broken into pieces 10m in diameter or larger must be conducted outside the gravity wells of civilian planets, as these pieces can harm civilian satellites. Inside gravity wells, one or more of the following methods must be used:

•Vaporization of spaceships
•Use of tractor beams to collect large fragments after the battle
•Repelling ships outside gravity wells before destroying them
•Boarding enemy ships

Put it in the OP.

What is "OP?"

[Wallenburg]

Member states are forbidden from using orbital weapons to destroy civilian establishments on the planet below.

"What if military forces take a civilian establishment, expel the civilians, and establish a base? Members cannot use orbital weapons on that base?"

Spaceships with masses of 1000 tonnes or more must be constructed in orbit, and cannot purposefully deorbit into civilian planets.

"The ton is not a measure of mass."

Space battles where one or more ships are broken into pieces 10m in diameter or larger must be conducted outside the gravity wells of civilian planets, as these pieces can harm civilian satellites. Inside gravity wells, one or more of the following methods must be used:

"This doesn't resolve the issue with the previous distance limit."

Put it in the OP.

What is "OP?"

Original post.

[Tinfect]

Member states are forbidden from using orbital weapons to destroy civilian establishments on the planet below.

"A Mild case of Duplication, if technically legal. This, however, fails to account for abandoned, or military occupied civilian property."

Spaceships with masses of 1000 tonnes or more must be constructed in orbit, and cannot purposefully deorbit into civilian planets.
Space battles where one or more ships are broken into pieces 10m in diameter or larger must be conducted outside the gravity wells of civilian planets, as these pieces can harm civilian satellites. Inside gravity wells, one or more of the following methods must be used:
Vaporization of spaceships
[...]
Boarding enemy ships

"Please take our previous critiscims into account when drafting further progression to this legislation. It is best not to ignore the advice of a Member State which engages in Interstellar Warfare on a regular basis. Now, the mandate of 10 meter pieces, is completely, and utterly asinine, and shows a profound misunderstanding of warfare between advanced Member States. For perspective, the Imperium produces no spacecraft save for an Aerospace Interception Craft, that measures less than 10 meters on any axis.

Use of tractor beams to collect large fragments after the battle
Repelling ships outside gravity wells before destroying them

"Ambassador, there is a difference between Technology, and Magic. What you propose, is magic. So-called 'tractor-beams' are technologies that the vast majority of even advanced member-states cannot be expected to have. The Imperium has only seen use of such technology by one Member-State, a collective of Archailects, trans-sapient artificial intelligence, known as 'Aeiouia'. Further, 'repelling' a ship, is not possible by any practical means. We are forced to assume that you intend for us to create magnetic barrier systems capable of deflecting craft travelling at Orbital Velocities, which is complete and utter madness.

Ambassador, I would recommend against blatantly ignoring my statements in the future. It is doing your legislation no favors."

[Imperium Anglorum]

Put it in the OP.

What is "OP?"

The Original Post (or, first post). Click 'Edit' on the top right of that post, change the title there to '[DRAFT] whatever-your-title-is' and the body to the contents of whatever the version is.

[Bears Armed]

What is "OP?"

The Original Post (or, first post). Click 'Edit' on the top right of that post, change the title there to '[DRAFT] whatever-your-title-is' and the body to the contents of whatever the version is

and leave the previous draft still there, too, but place that within a spoiler.