Repeal Standardized Passport Act

[Urgench]

Oh... this argument is making me all yawny! Yes... the word Gestapo is not offensive in itself. It is only offensive because of its association with the Shoa. And we realize you were trying to be funny and meant no harm by it... but this still does not mitigate the fact that we don't want an organization named GESTAPO messing around with passports, whether their gnomes or members of the Aryan Brotherhood.

OOC Erm excuse me who's this "we" you keep referring to ? Thousands of WA voters do want this organisation helping them to standardise passports through out the WA.

Oh and take the snide Aryan Brotherhood comments back to Narnia where they belong.

[The Amazing Wasteland]

Oh... this argument is making me all yawny! Yes... the word Gestapo is not offensive in itself. It is only offensive because of its association with the Shoa. And we realize you were trying to be funny and meant no harm by it... but this still does not mitigate the fact that we don't want an organization named GESTAPO messing around with passports, whether their gnomes or members of the Aryan Brotherhood.

You are misinterpreting the powers given in the Act, the committee does not issue passports but standardizes them. How hard is it to understand that a nation still determines who can get a passport and visa. The GESTAPO does not have the power you and others like you seem to think it has. The act satirizes the Gestapo by turning it into a powerless committee.

[The Walden Estates]

Oh... this argument is making me all yawny! Yes... the word Gestapo is not offensive in itself. It is only offensive because of its association with the Shoa. And we realize you were trying to be funny and meant no harm by it... but this still does not mitigate the fact that we don't want an organization named GESTAPO messing around with passports, whether their gnomes or members of the Aryan Brotherhood.

OOC Erm excuse me who's this "we" you keep referring to ? Thousands of WA voters do want this organisation helping them to standardise passports through out the WA.

Oh and take the snide Aryan Brotherhood comments back to Narnia where they belong.

List of the 1,800 and so people and delegates who voted AGAINST the resolution:

Votes Against: 1842: Velliaba [2], Mushinronshya [2], St Stephen n Critters [5], Seaplant13 [3], Ballotonia [10], Minyos [3], Todd McCloud [170], Stevobourg [6], Cokalia [4], Fotar [32], Proletaire [2], Finsowok [3], The Despair [2], Torukia [2], Aegara [164], Spartan Philidelphia [3], Sionis Prioratus [4], Power States [2], Opalaland [14], Swarming Cute Kittens [5], Jayzer [2], Pan-freeland [2], Joshuahood [21], Selenaqui [4], DMC ERIN [24], Aldonin [16], Barurot [2], Vega-Altair [14], Dr Ladybug [16], The Filippinos [2], Burbaland [3], Discordials [10], Lacmhacarh [2], Toke islands [2], Norfolk Trees [2], Doichlogs [2], Turekstan [5], Solrum [2], Aridiya [9], East Hylia [50], Jamesburgh [2], FASTERCAT [165], Kingsley Bedford [6], Al-Aqar [12], Sucram-Leon [2], Redrake [2], Wencee [9], Lukaland1111 [2], Bellvere [53], Call to power [2], Xiantai [2], A t l a n t i s [5], Dorre [2], Cricket Fans [12], Canaidai [7], ROLHEATH [115], Greater Americania [3], States of Stephenson [3], Kleinekatzen [4], Conservative Alliances [4], Aven Dale [14], Krankor [21], Opressive Forces [6], Phthisis[2], Varavano[27], Vici Minerva[3], Great British Islands[54], , Mikeswill[63], Burnadest[27], The Voltarum[12], The Phoenixian Empire[7], The Black Virus[15].

This is "we".

[Urgench]

Snip.

OOC, I'm sorry what part of the word "Vote" do you not understand ? The thing was voted on, it passed, you could revote on it a thousand times and get a different result everytime. Quit your bitching a produce a decent and coherent argument instead of "we don't like it, you're all NAZIS".

[The Amazing Wasteland]

Oh... this argument is making me all yawny! Yes... the word Gestapo is not offensive in itself. It is only offensive because of its association with the Shoa. And we realize you were trying to be funny and meant no harm by it... but this still does not mitigate the fact that we don't want an organization named GESTAPO messing around with passports, whether their gnomes or members of the Aryan Brotherhood.

OOC Erm excuse me who's this "we" you keep referring to ? Thousands of WA voters do want this organisation helping them to standardise passports through out the WA.

Oh and take the snide Aryan Brotherhood comments back to Narnia where they belong.

List of the 1,800 and so people and delegates who voted AGAINST the resolution:

Votes Against: 1842: Velliaba [2], Mushinronshya [2], St Stephen n Critters [5], Seaplant13 [3], Ballotonia [10], Minyos [3], Todd McCloud [170], Stevobourg [6], Cokalia [4], Fotar [32], Proletaire [2], Finsowok [3], The Despair [2], Torukia [2], Aegara [164], Spartan Philidelphia [3], Sionis Prioratus [4], Power States [2], Opalaland [14], Swarming Cute Kittens [5], Jayzer [2], Pan-freeland [2], Joshuahood [21], Selenaqui [4], DMC ERIN [24], Aldonin [16], Barurot [2], Vega-Altair [14], Dr Ladybug [16], The Filippinos [2], Burbaland [3], Discordials [10], Lacmhacarh [2], Toke islands [2], Norfolk Trees [2], Doichlogs [2], Turekstan [5], Solrum [2], Aridiya [9], East Hylia [50], Jamesburgh [2], FASTERCAT [165], Kingsley Bedford [6], Al-Aqar [12], Sucram-Leon [2], Redrake [2], Wencee [9], Lukaland1111 [2], Bellvere [53], Call to power [2], Xiantai [2], A t l a n t i s [5], Dorre [2], Cricket Fans [12], Canaidai [7], ROLHEATH [115], Greater Americania [3], States of Stephenson [3], Kleinekatzen [4], Conservative Alliances [4], Aven Dale [14], Krankor [21], Opressive Forces [6], Phthisis[2], Varavano[27], Vici Minerva[3], Great British Islands[54], , Mikeswill[63], Burnadest[27], The Voltarum[12], The Phoenixian Empire[7], The Black Virus[15].

This is "we".

Yes, but that does not mean they want the act repealed or that they voted against it b/c of Gestapo. Also, The General Assembly resolution Standardised Passport Act was passed 3,573 votes to 1,842, and implemented in all WA member nations.

[Cobdenia]

OoC: If Gestapo is such an offensive word, then why are people using it so freely? Surely if it is likely to offend so many people, one shouldn't be using it in at all? That's where the argument falls down - it clearly isn't offensive. I bet Philembesi had to think pretty hard before using a term (the "N" word) that is widely considered offensive in what is even a demonstrative sense. The fact that those who claim to be offended by it are using it so freely seems to point, pretty clearly, to it not being an offensive term

This is a trivial objection...clearly, for the sake of convenience, we are using it here for the purposes of brevity and clarity. The debate could just as easily progress if we all used "the G-word" whenever we wanted to use it.

It's either offensive or it isn't. If it was an offensive term, we wouldn't be bandying it about willy nilly. The fact is the word isn't offensive - the actions of the Geheime Staatspolizei, and people wishing to mimmick them or condone them, is. In fact, this stops people naming an organisation such and having it do everything the Geheime Staatspolizei did ICly (which I'm sure you'll agree is far more offensive then madating passport information requirements), as IC the Gestapo is an organisation of gnomes that fusses about with passports. It's why people don't get uppity about Slow-Scan Television - it's a way of sending images over amateur radio, not an organisation that administers and runs death camps.

Furthermore, the originally resolution doesn't mention the term GESTAPO - the repeal does. If Gestapo is offensive, and we wan't the term excised from the books of the WA, then surely it is quite clearly contradictory to actively place the name on the WA's statute books. In the original, if someone who was offended by "Gestapo" were to come across it whilst flicking through the statute books, the chances are they wouldn't notice - as the vast majority, according to the "anti-" posters, didn't. With the repeal, the apparently offensive term is plain for all to see

[The Walden Estates]

Snip.

OOC, I'm sorry what part of the word "Vote" do you not understand ? The thing was voted on, it passed, you could revote on it a thousand times and get a different result everytime. Quit your bitching a produce a decent and coherent argument instead of "we don't like it, you're all NAZIS".

Hey, no need to get nasty.

[Urgench]

Snip.

OOC, I'm sorry what part of the word "Vote" do you not understand ? The thing was voted on, it passed, you could revote on it a thousand times and get a different result everytime. Quit your bitching a produce a decent and coherent argument instead of "we don't like it, you're all NAZIS".

Hey, no need to get nasty.

OOC, I'm not being even faintly nasty. You're the one who keeps making deeply unpleasant referrences to Nazis and implying other people sympathise with National Socialism or are mocking the Shoa, if you don't want people to be peeved then dont throw around childish insults.

Like I said this repeal is deceitful and a sham, it's illegal, and doesn't comprise a decent argument against the resolution, the purpose of the repeal is to bring this whole mess of a debate and hysteria over nothing to the fore.

[The Walden Estates]

Snip.

OOC, I'm sorry what part of the word "Vote" do you not understand ? The thing was voted on, it passed, you could revote on it a thousand times and get a different result everytime. Quit your bitching a produce a decent and coherent argument instead of "we don't like it, you're all NAZIS".

Hey, no need to get nasty.

OOC, I'm not being even faintly nasty. You're the one who keeps making deeply unpleasant referrences to Nazis and implying other people sympathise with National Socialism or are mocking the Shoa, if you don't want people to be peeved then dont throw around childish insults.

Like I said this repeal is deceitful and a sham, it's illegal, and doesn't comprise a decent argument against the resolution, the purpose of the repeal is to bring this whole mess of a debate and hysteria over nothing to the fore.

hmmm... did I ever suggest either you or Cobdenia or anyone else had Nazi sympathies? I don't think so. That's something you created yourself. What I have said is that it isn't right to joke about the Shoa and doing so is being disrespectful. This is something I think most people, in RL, agree with.

[Urgench]

hmmm... did I ever suggest either you or Cobdenia or anyone else had Nazi sympathies? I don't think so. That's something you created yourself. What I have said is that it isn't right to joke about the Shoa and doing so is being disrespectful. This is something I think most people, in RL, agree with.

OOC this is both a straw man and a grotesque insult, How dare you accuse Cob or me or anyone else I know who supports this statute of joking about the Shoa. The joke is at the expense of the Gestapo, not the horrors of the Holocaust. I resent absolutely any suggestion that I would support a bad taste joke about the Holocaust and suggest you stop accusing people of having done this.

[The Amazing Wasteland]

\hmmm... did I ever suggest either you or Cobdenia or anyone else had Nazi sympathies? I don't think so. That's something you created yourself. What I have said is that it isn't right to joke about the Shoa and doing so is being disrespectful. This is something I think most people, in RL, agree with.

People are mocking the Gestapo not making light of the Holocaust, please stop accusing people of doing such.

[Krioval]

There's another argument to be made here, and that is: Has anybody ever read the II forum? Do people realize how many genocides are RPed every day, not to mention the rampant racism, sexism, mistreatment of the poor, discrimination against minorities, and so on? Yes, IRL, the Holocaust was terrible. I think that most people here can agree on that. However, in-character, there is far worse perpetuated on national populations. People are making far more of this issue than it needs to be made, and to what end? Because they're afraid that an acronym never explicitly referenced exists somewhere, and if one considers the context IRL, it's kind of bad?

Please. In the NS world, a secret police organization is mundane enough to barely warrant mention.

[Flibbleites]

RECOGNISING that a large proportion of the population of many WA states object to this acronym,

Really? How large a portion?

Great point. Let's find out. Only way to do that is to vote on the repeal.

On the contrary, the resolution already passed therefore the people who were all butthurt about the acronym must be in the minority.

And that is why this repeal is not illegal, should not be declared illegal, and should be considered on its merits by the delegates and nations of the WA.

I disagree with your claims of legality and here's why. I believe that this clause

UNDERSTANDING that this resolution empowers GESTAPO to gather information pertaining to individuals and passports, but fails to define limitations on this power, thus creating an unreasonably high potential for abuse and discriminatory enforcement;

constitutes an Honest Mistake violation. Nowhere in the resolution is it even stated that the Global Emigration, Security, Travel And Passport Organisation has the power to collect so much as a paycheck let alone information about a nation's citizens.

Bob Flibble
WA Representative

[Discoveria]

RECOGNISING that a large proportion of the population of many WA states object to this acronym,

Really? How large a portion?

Great point. Let's find out. Only way to do that is to vote on the repeal.

On the contrary, the resolution already passed therefore the people who were all butthurt about the acronym must be in the minority.

We know this is not true because some players didn't notice the acronym, and we know that some players changed their votes when they discovered it. But if that is the official line, then so be it.

[The Amazing Wasteland]

RECOGNISING that a large proportion of the population of many WA states object to this acronym,

Really? How large a portion?

Great point. Let's find out. Only way to do that is to vote on the repeal.

On the contrary, the resolution already passed therefore the people who were all butthurt about the acronym must be in the minority.

We know this is not true because some players didn't notice the acronym, and we know that some players changed their votes when they discovered it. But if that is the official line, then so be it.

That can not be proven, they are still in the minority and do not understand how much this act mocks the Gestapo. The repeal grants more power to GESTAPO than the original act does. And I for one actually changed my vote from AGAINST to FOR after I got over the initial shock and realized how hilarious it is. The GESTAPO is completely powerless in the original act and thus hilariously mocks the Gestapo.

[Ardchoille]

Two legality points here: one, a repeal must relate to the original resolution. By that I mean, discuss the actual text of the resolution and what the resolution does. Not what the repeal author believes it does. This disconnect is why so many repeals die a-borning.

Two: a repeal can only repeal. It cannot introduce new legislation. Hence, I'm leery of your "affirm" clause. "Affirm" is an action. Nations which oppose the idea of passport standardisation may not wish to affirm any such thing. Apart from the legal angle, you're cutting your chances of support by including extras.

And, not a legality point: keep it cool, on both sides of the argument. IC ambassadors may say things to their opposite numbers that the players behind them couldn't; but, on the other hand, ICly ambassadors may be Named and suspended from the service of the House. True, it's more common for them to be custard-pied, but just because something hasn't happened in RP is no guarantee that it never will. And it can be arranged with never a blot on your RL record. I find this thought tempting.

[Bears Armed]

RECOGNISING that a large proportion of the population of many WA states object to this acronym,

Really? How large a portion?

Great point. Let's find out. Only way to do that is to vote on the repeal.

An earlier post here responded to my argument that this repeal deserves a vote by saying that the delegates and nations who voted on the original resolution should have been more careful in reading it. Fair enough. But taking that argument to its logical conclusions would do away with all repeals. If hindsight is not a justification for a repeal, then there is no repeal, because then democracy is a one-shot deal and there is no way to remedy the mistakes of the past.

OOC: That earlier post was one of mine.
Established NS precedent, reinforced by Modly rulings, is that in order to be 'legal' repeals have to be based on actual flaws in the resolutions concerned and not just on "the vote might have gone differently if...". Over the years, for example, several attempts to repeal various proposals simply because the NSUN/WA's membership was claimed to have changed significantly since they were passed -- "and those new members deserve a chance to vote on the matter, too" -- have been officially barred for this reason.

[The Palentine]

I wish to thank the esteemed delegate from The Casadian Empire , or Walden Ponds, or wherever in the seven hells you're from, for bringing this so called weighty matter to our attention and dragging it out for four pages, thus causing many of my precious brain cells to commit suicide. Rather than focus on the guilt of a RL organization that has no meaning for the majority of the ambassadors here, you should dwell on your personal guilt for killing off my braincells. I hope you can sleep at night, knowing of the mass descruction you have caused, good sirrah.
Excelsior,
Sen. Horatio Sulla

[Almaniania]

I wish to thank the esteemed delegate from The Casadian Empire , or Walden Ponds, or wherever in the seven hells you're from, for bringing this so called weighty matter to our attention and dragging it out for four pages, thus causing many of my precious brain cells to commit suicide. Rather than focus on the guilt of a RL organization that has no meaning for the majority of the ambassadors here, you should dwell on your personal guilt for killing off my braincells. I hope you can sleep at night, knowing of the mass descruction you have caused, good sirrah.
Excelsior,
Sen. Horatio Sulla

Well, we're sorry we don't want to be ruled by a tyrant named THE GESTAPO!!!!

[Serrland]

I wish to thank the esteemed delegate from The Casadian Empire , or Walden Ponds, or wherever in the seven hells you're from, for bringing this so called weighty matter to our attention and dragging it out for four pages, thus causing many of my precious brain cells to commit suicide. Rather than focus on the guilt of a RL organization that has no meaning for the majority of the ambassadors here, you should dwell on your personal guilt for killing off my braincells. I hope you can sleep at night, knowing of the mass descruction you have caused, good sirrah.
Excelsior,
Sen. Horatio Sulla

Well, we're sorry we don't want to be ruled by a tyrant named THE GESTAPO!!!!

"You, honorable ambassador from Almaniania, win the sarcastic comment of the day award. Unless you're serious. In which case, the Serri delegate kindly recommends reading glasses, or perhaps learning to read in the first place, as doing either of those things would make it entirely clear that "THE GESTAPO" is largely powerless. Literacy is fun, eh?"

The Serri ambassador smirks while clicking the top of his pen, and hands the letter to his page, giving strict instructions to bring it to the Almanianians.

[Almaniania]

I won the sarcastic comment of the day award!? I'm so honored! I'd like to thank the GESTAPO for making me bring it up, the man who gave me this award, my family, and the Academy.

[Darkesia]

And yet, you all blink your eyes in shocked, indignant ignorance when people/nations outside this area speak poorly of you.

[Almaniania]

... Ok then...

[A mean old man]

*Jumps up and down and waves arms wildly*

I predicted this! I predicted this!! Who heard it!? I know you all heard me predict this insta-repeal!

Once again, my powers of prediction have proven successful. Perhaps I should be the WA Prophet.

[The Walden Estates]

*Jumps up and down and waves arms wildly*

I predicted this! I predicted this!! Who heard it!? I know you all heard me predict this insta-repeal!

Once again, my powers of prediction have proven successful. Perhaps I should be the WA Prophet.

I think we should. I propose a new resolution to enshrine the mean old man who uses his colostomy bags to skry into the future as the new WA prophet!

Give me a day or two to draft it, and any more occasions where the mean old man predicted the future woulds be helpful too!