PROPOSAL: The School Degenderizing Act

[Amerieka]

thanks. i will try to present this debate in a more coherent manner next time. i won't go so far to call the other people bigots. we are all learning.

[Pharthan]

OOC: I'd recommend this be made into an Issue. Interesting subject.

gender neutrality and equality is not applicable internationally?

OOC: Gender Equality is international (i.e. Fair education between sexes, having an equal or proportional number of restrooms (which, for human beings, is generically equal in most settings, though a Military or Physics based school would be largely male-oriented).
General Neutrality is not. Neutrality =/= Equality. No one is affected if women are allowed (or even required) to wear skirts or dresses, or if bathrooms are segregated by gender. No one is harmed. If one country decides to do away with gender-based subjects, no other country is affected, and therefore this issue is not international. If one country decides to start giving away nuclear warheads to random people like they're playing a game of 'hot potato,' that's easily understandable as an international issue.

IC:
"I, for on, am appalled that one so significantly ignorant of the world and it's cultures would be allowed to become an ambassador. Perhaps, Ambassador, you should take more school courses, for instance, Anthropology, and learn more about the world's cultures before you treat them like playthings to be toyed with, or go about the world and visit and learn of these cultures firsthand. Or, perhaps you are unaware that more cultures exist on this Earth than you own, and the vast majority of them share as much validity and right to exist as your own. While this resolution may work within your nation, and perhaps it might even work, with some difficulty, in the Meritocracy of Pharthan, it's political correctness is anything but - it is quite offensive, and therefore far from politically correct, in many other nations, and would do more damage than assistance. A good number of languages rely on gender differences.
"I fail to see why your resolution even bothers to mention 'gender equality,' seeing as it does nothing for it. Were this a resolution to ensure that all males and females on the planet be given equal access to education, that would be more than agreeable. This resolution is rather about destroying cultures which the Ambassador likely knows nothing about.
"While, Ambassador, you might consider other nations to be 'bigots' or 'transphobic' for considering gender neutrality to be a foolish notion and to be offended by it, in other nations you would be considered just as much a bigot for such complete and utter disregard for their way of life.
"Even within nations, especially large ones, a variety of cultures which might come into conflict with such resolutions can be seen."
"Furthermore, we find this resolution almost humorous. The fact of the matter is that males and females very much are different, undeniably so, and accommodations must be made. This resolution appears to be attempting to disregard nature and convenience on the part of the majority to placate a minority."

"If it is not already apparent, the Meritocracy of Pharthan opposes this piece of legislation which is a useless micromanaging of nations in regards which should be handled nationally, rather than internationally shoved down all of our throats in such a blatantly offensive manner."

[Imperium Anglorum]

We should totally revive these cards.

[Ardchoilleans]

thanks. i will try to present this debate in a more coherent manner next time. i won't go so far to call the other people bigots. we are all learning.

Fair enough. Well, then; accepting that you're not happy with the submitted version, what can you do about your proposal? I'd say

1. Use a Getting Help Request to ask a Game Mod to remove it from the submissions list.
2. Consider what can be salvaged from the experience.
3. If you still think it's a viable idea, rewrite.
4. Delay submission until you've had a fair few analytical replies from regulars (sorry, I can't be more exact than "a fair few").

Re 1: The sooner you do this, the better. As a mod, I can't touch it and won't be killing it for any illegalities -- I won't even be looking at it for illegalities -- because I've been posting about it as a player (BTW, my comment was about poor phrasing, not identifying an illegality). I've flagged it for attention so another GM can consider whether your comments in this thread constitute a request for removal, but the backup of a GHR with a definite request would be more certain. If you leave it up and a GM then finds it illegal, you could get an illegal-proposal note on your nation. Three illegals could see the nation you submit with removed from the WA.

Re 2: You've been told it's micromanagement. That's often a cue to look at your idea and ask yourself if it's something the real-world UN would issue directives on. If not, is there any way you can make it more general and more international? Some players have told you they support gender equality or gender neutrality, so you might be able to work from that if the General Assembly doesn't have anything on its books that already covers those topics. (Other players have mentioned GA#35, The Charter of Civil Rights, and GA #91, A Convention on Gender. Have a look and see what you think.)

Re 3 and 4: If you decide to continue, check out this post and also the Helpful Links in that thread's first post. There are several proposal writing guides there.

[Hirota]

([url=http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j415/Unibot/SC-v1-27.png]Image)[/url]
We should totally revive these cards.

Pffft, those new things? You gotta go old school cool.



Anyhoo, this proposal has a significant flaw. It completely ignores the phenomenon in language of Grammatical Gender. Since grammatical genders exists in science terminology, this would mean this resolution is effectively looking to force member states to change their language. I know "Language Preservation" was repealed, but to me it is far more important that we preserve cultural legacies.

2. All science based subjects remove the use of he/she, or other gender specific identifications, be removed with it.

3. Subjects dealing specifically with gender-linked aspects, such as biology, where he/she can ease the process of learning, is exempt. Art subjects, such as literature and film, are also exempt due to the nature of the already gender specific content.

So what about subjects which are not science based, biology or art based? History in particular is often considered both a science and an art, so where does that fit in these couple of paragraphs?

It's on the basis that this proposal:
A) Conflicts with the ideals of historical and cultural preservation (specifically of languages)
B) Runs roughshod over national sovereignty to address a comparatively insignificant issue
C) Fails to understand the nature of a full and comprehensive curriculum

That my government has chosen to direct me to oppose this proposal.

[Separatist Peoples]

"I don't see the point of this useless micromanagement. So what if states recognize gender in schools? Recognizing and regulating based on a non-arbitrary difference isn't discrimination, nor is it inherently negative. Opposed."

[Araraukar]

I have also been asked to convey a message from Prime Minister Pearson:

"What the fuck is this bullshit? Men are men, and women are women."

"Jean, would you please tell Chester that much as I like to remember him with fondness - his vitriolic remarks made me look nice in comparison - he's a bit behind with the times."

OOC: To everyone ripping into the bit about banning him/her, please do take into account that not all languages have gendered pronouns. My native doesn't, and when I'm using English and not sure of someone's gender and don't wish to offend, I use "they". If I do wish to offend, I use "it".

[Mundiferrum]

I have submitted a proposal for your consideration. Please support it.

----------------------

DESCRIPTION: Gender equality has made inroads in many sectors of society but requires further cultural cultivation in society;

RECOGNIZING that early education can and will play a key role in the continued improvement of equality between genders;

PROPOSES that "gender" be progressively minimized, with the aim of eventual elimination, from member nations' education system.

DEFINITIONS:
Education system broadly refers to both academic aspects, such as curriculum, and teaching approach, and administrative aspects, such as uniforms, enrollment forms, and toilet labels.

This proposal states that with IMMEDIATE EFFECT,

1. All school toilets have no gender identification. There is a reason why there is a separation of genders when it comes to toilet, that being that a lot of people do get quite touchy when it comes to gender (harassment and embarrassment sound the same!). Of course, genderholing people into just two groups is a bit weird, but so is half-exposing a bunch of hormonal (in the case of high school) kids of any gender into one big room.

2. Schools that have uniforms abolish the need for standardized uniforms which has conventionally been gender-differentiated.

3. Gender is no longer a required category in all forms and documents relating to the student (or prospective students) This just makes everything harder when it comes to identifying people. If you really wanna go for gender equality, then give folks the freedom to write down what they wish regardless of what society tells them to (but within the bounds of reason, of course); but if you wanna continue this, then watch your bureaucracy crumble, as people become six times as hard to identify!

This proposal further establishes that within FIVE years,

1. Gender studies as a liberal arts subject be taught in secondary/high schools (or its equivalent). Also racial studies, international affairs, economic studies, etc. Because our problems are just as big as yours! (Or, less cryptically: that's why we have Social Studies)

2. All science based subjects remove the use of he/she, or other gender specific identifications, be removed with it. Read on what folks say about language above. AND in terms of science education, this is completely uncalled for, because confusion shall spring inevitably from this. I know some people get uncomfortable with being referred to by a he or she, but that's just some people: we already have a much cleaner way of dealing with that (that is, just asking the person how he or she or whatever wants to be referred to) that won't interfere with the efficiency of science education.

3. Subjects dealing specifically with gender-linked aspects, such as biology, where he/she can ease the process of learning, is exempt. Art subjects, such as literature and film, are also exempt due to the nature of the already gender specific content. Again, there are a lot of complicated issue regarding gender that can also be talked about in other subjects without explicitly referring to gender, like History (identifying someone like Lindsey Stirling or Sidney Greenstreet as either men or women or whatever would be excruciatingly hard with what you're proposing here, and that's pretty key in actually identifying them as people. You can't expect everyone to know every other aspect of their personal lives? Furthermore, gender has a big effect on how people are treated in some historical cultures, but those nuances by themselves can be far from the focus of their related lessons, hence rendering them outside the scope of this little note.

[Amerieka]

i'm going to revive this with a neater and more well defined proposal. the goal is to get quorum so that the ENTIRE wa can vote and decide on the matter.

[Separatist Peoples]

i'm going to revive this with a neater and more well defined proposal. the goal is to get quorum so that the ENTIRE wa can vote and decide on the matter.

"That would likely be a waste of your time, considering this issue has no justification for international interference. Nobody is actively harmed by having gender-segregated restrooms or school uniforms."

[Pharthan]

i'm going to revive this with a neater and more well defined proposal. the goal is to get quorum so that the ENTIRE wa can vote and decide on the matter.

"As previously stated, Gender Neutrality is not an international issue. Gender equality is, but this resolution doesn't cover gender equality. Furthermore, you're failing to respect other cultures and their differences by trying to suppose that gender neutrality is an international issue. There is no reason to have such gender neutrality. No one suffers by a difference in naturally occuring gender differences, so long as they are treated equally."

[The United Neptumousian Empire]

"Billions of years of advancement have taught us things such as this are pointless. Opposed."

[CreepyCut]

I can understand your motive, but I don't particularly agree with the proposal at hand.

1. All school toilets have no gender identification.

Now although I'm sure female, as well as male bathrooms, can vary in a degree of cleanliness depending on the establishment, this can still be a problem if both genders mix. Yes, unisex bathrooms do exist but only in cafés and places where the restroom isn't used too often.

In schools, on a social aspect, boys, but mainly girls, tend to use the bathroom to talk about issues/secrets or in the case of girls, sort themselves out when undergoing their period or other biological phenomenons.
Now although discipline is enforced in these educational institutions, there might still be a lack of privacy or certain inconveniences if boys interfere with girls' private "bathroom" issues, and vice versa. As ludicrous as I may sound, just ask your average male or female student and they'll give you a justification as to the need of separate restrooms.

2. Schools that have uniforms abolish the need for standardized uniforms which has conventionally been gender-differentiated.

If uniforms are abolished all together, it'll only heighten the gender differentiation further as students will be wearing what they like in accordance to their gender.

If some sort of "unisex" uniform is created, I would really like to know what it would consist of, fashion wise. Because you can either have boys wearing skirts, or girls wearing long trousers (even though trousers are worn in female fashion these days, it would still clearly suggest that the "male model" is being adopted to define the unisex uniform. And that would upset a lot of radical/anarchic feminists, unless you have boys wearing female trousers as well. Then it would seem like the "female model" is being adopted).

3. Gender is no longer a required category in all forms and documents relating to the student (or prospective students)

That's a problem already. What if there's a transvestite teaching or studying in the institution? Let's not forget the problems it would cause if a legal or criminal investigation were to go underway.

"The shooter was John Smith, who was a....female student."

There are reasons for gender separation in these forms and documents.

This proposal further establishes that within FIVE years,

1. Gender studies as a liberal arts subject be taught in secondary/high schools (or its equivalent).

If you want equality in gender can't simply treating others as equals suffice, instead of having to study an entire theory on the matter? Doesn't stressing its importance merely single it out as an "issue" which therefore gives it a negative connotation and possibly sharpen grudges, especially by those who are sick of hearing about the subject?

2. All science based subjects remove the use of he/she, or other gender specific identifications, be removed with it.

Which reminds me, why don't we apply this to religion as well? Let's call God "It" instead of "He" since God is clearly a spirit and not a human entity.

3. Subjects dealing specifically with gender-linked aspects, such as biology, where he/she can ease the process of learning, is exempt. Art subjects, such as literature and film, are also exempt due to the nature of the already gender specific content.

You may have contradicted your second point above, since biology fits into the category of science based subjects as it is a science of human anatomical and psychological structure.



Sorry, gonna have to say I'm against this for now.

Important observational note: Although I'm in full support of the LGBT movement, such a proposal could cause gender confusion in these schools and therefore an increase in homosexuality.

Although biological things like breasts, hair length, voice, shape/figure (although concealed by the eventually standardized "unisex" uniform if created) and phallic tools can differentiate the two, I still think it would cause an increase in same sex relations.

And that is, to certain close minded delegates and nations who are not as openly liberal, anarchic and tolerant as I, a very worrisome matter.

[Defwa]

This proposal further establishes that within FIVE years,

1. Gender studies as a liberal arts subject be taught in secondary/high schools (or its equivalent).

If you want equality in gender can't simply treating others as equals suffice, instead of having to study an entire theory on the matter? Doesn't stressing its importance merely single it out as an "issue" which therefore gives it a negative connotation and possibly sharpen grudges, especially by those who are sick of hearing about the subject?

2. All science based subjects remove the use of he/she, or other gender specific identifications, be removed with it.

Which reminds me, why don't we apply this to religion as well? Let's call God "It" instead of "He" since God is clearly a spirit and not a human entity.

Sorry, gonna have to say I'm against this for now.

Important observational note: Although I'm in full support of the LGBT movement, such a proposal could cause gender confusion in these schools and therefore an increase in homosexuality.

Although biological things like breasts, hair length, voice, shape/figure (although concealed by the eventually standardized "unisex" uniform if created) and phallic tools can differentiate the two, I still think it would cause an increase in same sex relations.

And that is, to certain close minded delegates and nations who are not as openly liberal, anarchic and tolerant as I, a very worrisome matter.

You were making some amount of sense until the last half.
Education on this matter fosters understanding. There are a lot of activities and actions that people do not realize are misogynistic because they've become so ingrained and internalized that we no longer notice them. Look at all those men who think catcalling is a sign of respect or the fact that people are a little overly confused about the concept of consent.

Your next point displays your failure to recognize internalized misogyny- god (in christianity) is male because women are not good enough to be god. It should be an it, but their mythology is against such a concept for a reason.

Now here's where we start having a real problem. You think that gender neutral bathrooms would cause gender confusion and in increase in homosexuality. First off, it appears as if you're insinuating homosexuals are all gender confused. Secondly, having a bunch of men in one room with their dicks out and no women is my idea of a party. In fact, just the other night, in one of the seedier levels of the WA *the universal translator emits a loud beep, covering la Vert's words* and I will never get cheese on my salad again.
If you think that some young man is going to 'turn gay' because they didn't recognize their partner as a male until the last moment, they were probably at least a little bisexual to start.

[CreepyCut]

If you want equality in gender can't simply treating others as equals suffice, instead of having to study an entire theory on the matter? Doesn't stressing its importance merely single it out as an "issue" which therefore gives it a negative connotation and possibly sharpen grudges, especially by those who are sick of hearing about the subject?



Which reminds me, why don't we apply this to religion as well? Let's call God "It" instead of "He" since God is clearly a spirit and not a human entity.

Sorry, gonna have to say I'm against this for now.

Important observational note: Although I'm in full support of the LGBT movement, such a proposal could cause gender confusion in these schools and therefore an increase in homosexuality.

Although biological things like breasts, hair length, voice, shape/figure (although concealed by the eventually standardized "unisex" uniform if created) and phallic tools can differentiate the two, I still think it would cause an increase in same sex relations.

And that is, to certain close minded delegates and nations who are not as openly liberal, anarchic and tolerant as I, a very worrisome matter.

You were making some amount of sense until the last half.
Education on this matter fosters understanding. There are a lot of activities and actions that people do not realize are misogynistic because they've become so ingrained and internalized that we no longer notice them. Look at all those men who think catcalling is a sign of respect or the fact that people are a little overly confused about the concept of consent.

Your next point displays your failure to recognize internalized misogyny- god (in christianity) is male because women are not good enough to be god. It should be an it, but their mythology is against such a concept for a reason.

Now here's where we start having a real problem. You think that gender neutral bathrooms would cause gender confusion and in increase in homosexuality. First off, it appears as if you're insinuating homosexuals are all gender confused. Secondly, having a bunch of men in one room with their dicks out and no women is my idea of a party. In fact, just the other night, in one of the seedier levels of the WA *the universal translator emits a loud beep, covering la Vert's words* and I will never get cheese on my salad again.
If you think that some young man is going to 'turn gay' because they didn't recognize their partner as a male until the last moment, they were probably at least a little bisexual to start.

Perhaps I did go a little too far on the homosexuality concept; especially since gender confusion is probably avoidable due to evidently physical features on people. I was thinking more about very small toddlers in pre-school who aren't conscious enough to tell the difference between girls and boys; even if they were told the difference, the gender neutrality laws enforced in that school would probably restrict them from being told the difference. Although they could ask their parents, not all parents are reliable.
It would certainly defeat the purpose of the proposal if they were told the difference, maybe...does this proposal affect all kinds of schools? If it doesn't affect pre schools then this proposal might not be too effective.

But that aside, as regards gender-neutral bathrooms, there are probably historical reasons as to why there are gender-separate bathrooms, hygiene as I said earlier on, being on the main reasons.

[Amerieka]

i said it will be improved, which means u can stop making fun of me and wait for the improvements. you guys are real (insert preferred cussword)s.

[Separatist Peoples]

i said it will be improved, which means u can stop making fun of me and wait for the improvements. you guys are real (insert preferred cussword)s.

"No, we're ambassadors trying to tell you not to pursue this idea. There's no need to be insulting, we're just being honest."

[Amerieka]

if u haven't noticed, there are elements in the discussion above worth pursuing. i'm picking on those few points and see what develops. is that a sin?

[Separatist Peoples]

if u haven't noticed, there are elements in the discussion above worth pursuing. i'm picking on those few points and see what develops. is that a sin?

"I always rather thought wasting the GA's time ought to be a sin, and if it were, this would be chief among them. Nevertheless, no, I cannot honestly say that this is even against the outlined rules of drafting and submission. So, congratulations: the best that can be said for this is that it's literally not illegal to pursue. Carry on."

[Amerieka]

the discussion of whether of gender equality should be an international issue and how deeply should it be enforced is a waste of time for the GA?

[Separatist Peoples]

the discussion of whether of gender equality should be an international issue and how deeply should it be enforced is a waste of time for the GA?

"Just this take on it."

[Amerieka]

the discussion of whether of gender equality should be an international issue and how deeply should it be enforced is a waste of time for the GA?

"Just this take on it."

You are right, and I have taken these views into consideration and hope to propose something more logical. It will be less of a waste of time alright? Stop judging me.

[Separatist Peoples]

"Just this take on it."

You are right, and I have taken these views into consideration and hope to propose something more logical. It will be less of a waste of time alright?

"Then might I suggest formally closing this debate and not starting it again until you have a fresh, separate idea to work with?"
OOC: start a new thread for the next iteration. It's less confusing.

Stop judging me.

"Too late."

[Amerieka]

You are right, and I have taken these views into consideration and hope to propose something more logical. It will be less of a waste of time alright?

"Then might I suggest formally closing this debate and not starting it again until you have a fresh, separate idea to work with?"
OOC: start a new thread for the next iteration. It's less confusing.

Stop judging me.

"Too late."

i guess no point starting a new thread since it is too late. sob sob.

[Sierra Lyricalia]

the discussion of whether of gender equality should be an international issue and how deeply should it be enforced is a waste of time for the GA?

Absolutely not. Any time you wanted to actually discuss a proposal advancing gender equality, we're all ears. But you've yet to even approach that topic. Like the old bolshies, you've somehow confused a vast swarm of drones for a vibrant polity of exuberant and vivacious equals. Other ambassadors may sound like dickheads when they advise you that the best addition to this draft is lighter fluid and a match, but they're not wrong (and they're not being particularly egregious with their tone, for the most part). The advice is sincere, and sincerely meant to help you find the right way to come at this.

Nobody ever advanced the cause of gender equality by trying to erase gender distinctions. And nobody ever stopped gender-based aggression or oppression by taking away the closest thing to public sanctuary that it's reasonable to expect to find. Equality doesn't mean mashing people into a bland soup of sameness. Until you approach this issue with that realization in mind, you'll get very little support indeed.