NATION

PASSWORD

DRAFT: Repeal "For the Detained and Convicted"

Where WA members debate how to improve the world, one resolution at a time.
User avatar
Sionis Prioratus
Senator
 
Posts: 3537
Founded: Feb 07, 2009
Ex-Nation

DRAFT: Repeal "For the Detained and Convicted"

Postby Sionis Prioratus » Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:45 pm

Repeal "For the Detained and Convicted"!

THE PEOPLES OF THE WORLD ASSEMBLED,

FULLY ACKNOWLEDGING “For the Detained and Convicted” has a humanitarian spirit and that the majority of the Ambassadors and Delegates who voted for "For the Detained and Convicted" did so for humanitarian reasons;

ACKNOWLEDGING that when an “individual is convicted, they [sic] are entitled to some rights”;

BUT NEVERTHELESS APPALLED “For the Detained and Convicted” does absolutely nothing to protect the rights of the “Detained and Convicted” and SHOCKED that it enables even worse violations of rights;

SADLY NOTING Resolution #62 says, in relevant part (emphasis added):

1. That the detained:
[…]
d. (i) if held for more than 6 hours per day (or equivalent) shall be fed an adequate meal;
(ii) shall be fed at minimum two adequate meals per day;

2. That the convicted:
a. (i) if sentenced to prison, be given accommodations of a reasonable comfort level;
(ii) shall be placed in an area of adequate security level for the offense;
b. shall be fed at minimum two adequate meals per day;
c. shall have visitation rights;
[…]
g. (i) if misbehaved, may be punished and temporarily lose rights listed as (c) and (g) for an adequate time as given by a prison board or equivalent;
(ii) shall have more time added to their sentence if misconduct is a felony or of a serious nature.


APPALLED & ENRAGED by the lack of definitions, letting them open to atrocious interpretations:

Nowhere there is a definition of “adequate meals”. This can lead to situations where a person is fed meals which are social or religious taboos, such as cockroaches or other various insects, observant Catholics being fed meat on Easter, or Jews and Muslims being fed pork, on grounds those are nutritiously adequate meals. On extreme situations, this can effectively be a death sentence by starvation;

Nowhere there is a definition of “reasonable comfort level”. This can lead to “experiments on optimal comfort”, leading to situations where a person is left on extreme temperatures, or without simple comfort items, like a mattress;

Nowhere there is a definition of “visitation rights”. This can lead prison personnel to define it as “once a year”, or even longer periods. Also nowhere the degrees of privacy allowed/prohibited are defined;

Nowhere there is a definition of “misconduct […] of a serious nature”. This can lead to the creation of arbitrary, impossible rules, which combined with the fact that there are no limits to the time that can be added to a sentence, effectively gives prison personnel the power to arbitrarily incarcerate people for life by breaking frivolous rules;

THEREFORE, THE WORLD ASSEMBLY REPEALS Resolution #62.
Last edited by Sionis Prioratus on Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Cathérine Victoire de Saint-Clair
Haute Ambassadrice for the WA for
✡ The Jewish Kingdom of Sionis Prioratus
Daughter of The Late King Adrian the First
In the Name of
Sa Majesté Impériale Dagobert VI de Saint-Clair
A simple truth

User avatar
Mad Sheep Railgun
Diplomat
 
Posts: 592
Founded: Jun 27, 2009
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mad Sheep Railgun » Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:51 pm

Good. About time someone repealed this.
OOC puppet of Yelda

User avatar
Omigodtheykilledkenny
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5744
Founded: Mar 14, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Omigodtheykilledkenny » Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:01 am

Next time try underlining or bolding the text more.
Omigodtheykilledkenny FAQ | "The Biggest Sovereigntist IN THE WORLD" - Chester Pearson

User avatar
Tkdkidsx2
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1744
Founded: Feb 15, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Tkdkidsx2 » Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:03 am

"This is a truly great proposal, and will be accepted immediately. However, a plan of action must be detailed for the creation of a more suiting proposal in #62's place."
Riaka wrote:Son, you've just entered the exciting and frightening world of religious debate. It's much like a roller coaster, in the sense that in the next few minutes there are going to many twists and turns, potential vertical inversion, a lot of crying children and someone's probably going to throw up at the end.


Wilgrove wrote:
Rambhutan wrote:Texas school book repositories are dangerous places.


JFK can attest to that! *nods*

User avatar
Sionis Prioratus
Senator
 
Posts: 3537
Founded: Feb 07, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Sionis Prioratus » Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:13 am

Tkdkidsx2 wrote:"This is a truly great proposal, and will be accepted immediately. However, a plan of action must be detailed for the creation of a more suiting proposal in #62's place."


In fact, there is already one, in force:
GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION # 67

Habeas Corpus
A resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights.

Category: Human Rights
Strength: Significant
Proposed by: Gobbannium

Description: The World Assembly,

DESIROUS that the due process of law not be side-stepped by detention without trial,

CONCERNED that individuals can be harassed by repeated accusations that have been disproven in law,

AWARE of the need to balance the requirements of legal systems with the rights of the individual,

MANDATES the following:

1) That no person may be held against their will without being charged with or officially suspected of a criminal offence for more than two hours in any one week without full legal authorisation for such detention. Such authorisation may extend the period of detention to at most twenty four hours in any one week.

2) Full legal authorisation for detention without reason can only be issued by person or persons who would be permitted to direct some form of trial, and who are duly authorised by the legal system to issue such authorisation.

3) That no person may be held on suspicion of a criminal offence for more than forty eight hours without being charged with a criminal offence. Time during which judicial authorities are not active (such as weekends or public holidays) to a maximum of ninety six hours shall not be counted to this period; in other words, a person may be held for up to 144 hours provided that the judicial authorities are available for no more than 48 of those hours.

4) That a person so charged must be informed of the formal charge immediately.

5) That no person may be held on suspicion of a criminal offence for which they have been previously held on suspicion without full legal authorisation for such re-detention.

6) Full legal authorisation for re-detention on suspicion can only be issued by person or persons who would be permitted to direct the consequent trial, who are duly authorised by the legal system to issue such authorisation, and who are presented with evidence that the suspicions against the individual are materially stronger than was the case for the previous detention.

7) That a person may not be charged with an offence of which they have been acquited by a court of law without full legal authorisation for a retrial.

8 ) Full legal authorisation for a retrial can only be issued by person or persons who would be permitted to direct the consequent trial, and who are duly authorised by the legal system to issue such authorisation.

Votes For: 4,398
Votes Against: 1,636

Implemented: Fri Oct 16 2009

Frankly (as I was absent) I do not know how "Habeas Corpus" was not ruled illegal, on various grounds of Duplication, given the various overlaps.

Which was a merciful thing, considering "Habeas Corpus" is far superior.
Cathérine Victoire de Saint-Clair
Haute Ambassadrice for the WA for
✡ The Jewish Kingdom of Sionis Prioratus
Daughter of The Late King Adrian the First
In the Name of
Sa Majesté Impériale Dagobert VI de Saint-Clair
A simple truth

User avatar
Grays Harbor
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18574
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Grays Harbor » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:45 am

Basing a repeal on a lack of definitions which suit you will not get support from us.
Everything you know about me is wrong. Or a rumor. Something like that.

Not Ta'veren

User avatar
Enn
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1228
Founded: Jan 26, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby Enn » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:02 am

Perhaps it is time to bring out the Reasonable Nation theory. Your potential definitions seem to me to be bizarre and arcane loopholes, against the spirit of the resolution. If you believe a nation is violating the obvious intent of this resolution in such a way, well, there is the potential to Condemn them.

I do not agree with your reasons for repealing this resolution, and as such will not led support.
I know what gay science is.
Reploid Productions wrote:The World Assembly as a whole terrifies me!
Pythagosaurus wrote:You are seriously deluded about the technical competence of the average human.

User avatar
Grays Harbor
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18574
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Grays Harbor » Mon Dec 28, 2009 4:07 am

Enn wrote:Perhaps it is time to bring out the Reasonable Nation theory. Your potential definitions seem to me to be bizarre and arcane loopholes, against the spirit of the resolution. If you believe a nation is violating the obvious intent of this resolution in such a way, well, there is the potential to Condemn them.

I do not agree with your reasons for repealing this resolution, and as such will not led support.


After perusing this draft, which was submitted prior to debate as we are certain that the proposer cannot tolerate debate on issues surrounding their proposal and based on their bad reaction to any disagreement to the previous draft they put forth, we do not believe that the proposer falls under the "reasonable nation" heading as they appear to require their hand be held at all times by the WA and need specific and gratuitous definitions for virtually everything.

Like our colleague from Enn, we cannot and will not ever support this repeal.
Everything you know about me is wrong. Or a rumor. Something like that.

Not Ta'veren

User avatar
Charlotte Ryberg
The Muse of the Westcountry
 
Posts: 15007
Founded: Mar 14, 2007
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Charlotte Ryberg » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:50 am

Nowhere there is a definition of “adequate meals”. This can lead to situations where a person is fed meals which are social or religious taboos, such as cockroaches or other various insects, observant Catholics being fed meat on Easter, or Jews and Muslims being fed pork, on grounds those are nutritiously adequate meals. On extreme situations, this can effectively be a death sentence by starvation;

Honored ambassador to Sionis Prioratus, I think these are RL references, which aren't allowed even in repeals.

Yours etc,

User avatar
Grays Harbor
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18574
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Grays Harbor » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:52 am

This tendency for certain nations to require specific definitions for each and every possible scenario is getting out of hand.
Everything you know about me is wrong. Or a rumor. Something like that.

Not Ta'veren

User avatar
Flibbleites
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 6569
Founded: Jan 02, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby Flibbleites » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:59 am

Reading through your repeal text I find that your whole argument for the repeal boils down to, "It's too vague." The Rogue Nation of Flibbleites likes the vagueness, it allows us to treat our inmates how we like as long as it meets the minimum requirements set forth in the proposal and if an inmate doesn't like their accommodations, then boo-frickin-hoo they shouldn't have broken the law. Prison is not supposed to be a five-star hotel.

Bob Flibble
WA Representative

And now for a bunch of OOC stuff.
Sionis Prioratus wrote:
Tkdkidsx2 wrote:"This is a truly great proposal, and will be accepted immediately. However, a plan of action must be detailed for the creation of a more suiting proposal in #62's place."


In fact, there is already one, in force:
GENERAL ASSEMBLY RESOLUTION # 67

Habeas Corpus
A resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights.

Category: Human Rights
Strength: Significant
Proposed by: Gobbannium

Description: The World Assembly,

DESIROUS that the due process of law not be side-stepped by detention without trial,

CONCERNED that individuals can be harassed by repeated accusations that have been disproven in law,

AWARE of the need to balance the requirements of legal systems with the rights of the individual,

MANDATES the following:

1) That no person may be held against their will without being charged with or officially suspected of a criminal offence for more than two hours in any one week without full legal authorisation for such detention. Such authorisation may extend the period of detention to at most twenty four hours in any one week.

2) Full legal authorisation for detention without reason can only be issued by person or persons who would be permitted to direct some form of trial, and who are duly authorised by the legal system to issue such authorisation.

3) That no person may be held on suspicion of a criminal offence for more than forty eight hours without being charged with a criminal offence. Time during which judicial authorities are not active (such as weekends or public holidays) to a maximum of ninety six hours shall not be counted to this period; in other words, a person may be held for up to 144 hours provided that the judicial authorities are available for no more than 48 of those hours.

4) That a person so charged must be informed of the formal charge immediately.

5) That no person may be held on suspicion of a criminal offence for which they have been previously held on suspicion without full legal authorisation for such re-detention.

6) Full legal authorisation for re-detention on suspicion can only be issued by person or persons who would be permitted to direct the consequent trial, who are duly authorised by the legal system to issue such authorisation, and who are presented with evidence that the suspicions against the individual are materially stronger than was the case for the previous detention.

7) That a person may not be charged with an offence of which they have been acquited by a court of law without full legal authorisation for a retrial.

8 ) Full legal authorisation for a retrial can only be issued by person or persons who would be permitted to direct the consequent trial, and who are duly authorised by the legal system to issue such authorisation.

Votes For: 4,398
Votes Against: 1,636

Implemented: Fri Oct 16 2009

Frankly (as I was absent) I do not know how "Habeas Corpus" was not ruled illegal, on various grounds of Duplication, given the various overlaps.

Which was a merciful thing, considering "Habeas Corpus" is far superior.

What overlaps? Habeas Corpus talks about how long you can hold someone, while For the Detained and Convicted states how you can treat someone that's being held. I'm not seeing an overlap.

Charlotte Ryberg wrote:
Nowhere there is a definition of “adequate meals”. This can lead to situations where a person is fed meals which are social or religious taboos, such as cockroaches or other various insects, observant Catholics being fed meat on Easter, or Jews and Muslims being fed pork, on grounds those are nutritiously adequate meals. On extreme situations, this can effectively be a death sentence by starvation;

Honored ambassador to Sionis Prioratus, I think these are RL references, which aren't allowed even in repeals.

Yours etc,
Catholics and Jews are both mentioned in issues (heck issue #128 mentions both in the same choice) so they probably wouldn't be a RL reference.

User avatar
Unibotian WASC Mission
Diplomat
 
Posts: 729
Founded: Oct 27, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Unibotian WASC Mission » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:09 am

OOC: Wasn't Max Barry mentioned in a few issues?

And yet that was certainly ruled as a RL violation, with "Max Barry Day".

(In #077 he is interpreted as a Perl amateur, who is designing an online game -- and in #044 he is the author of "Jennifer Government")

That being said, I think Catholicism and the aforementioned religions are so prominent in RL that some nations must practice it in NS.
Last edited by Unibotian WASC Mission on Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:16 am, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
Omigodtheykilledkenny
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5744
Founded: Mar 14, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Omigodtheykilledkenny » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:13 am

Harry Potter too. But we are most definitely not allowed to talk about him in proposals. "Jews" and "Catholics" are RL references.
Omigodtheykilledkenny FAQ | "The Biggest Sovereigntist IN THE WORLD" - Chester Pearson

User avatar
Flibbleites
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 6569
Founded: Jan 02, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby Flibbleites » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:16 am

Unibotian WASC Mission wrote:OOC: Wasn't Max Barry mentioned in a few issues?

And yet that was certainly ruled as a RL violation, with "Max Barry Day".

There was enough corroborating evidence in that resolution to make it obvious that it was referring to the the real Max.

User avatar
Unibotian WASC Mission
Diplomat
 
Posts: 729
Founded: Oct 27, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Unibotian WASC Mission » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:18 am

Flibbleites wrote:
Unibotian WASC Mission wrote:OOC: Wasn't Max Barry mentioned in a few issues?

And yet that was certainly ruled as a RL violation, with "Max Barry Day".

There was enough corroborating evidence in that resolution to make it obvious that it was referring to the the real Max.


But besides the NS issue that has Max as Ms. @@NATION@@, his other appearances in issues are clearly based off of him.

User avatar
Sionis Prioratus
Senator
 
Posts: 3537
Founded: Feb 07, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Sionis Prioratus » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:22 am

OOC: Heck, Sionis Prioratus itself is played as a "Jewish Kingdom", and there's a lot of Catholic, Jewish and Muslim Nations and Regions across NS.

Bob, can we get an official ruling about this? If ruled illegal, please remove it from the queue, so SP can submit a denomination-neutral text.

Thank you. :)

User avatar
Unibot
Senator
 
Posts: 4292
Founded: May 25, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Unibot » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:24 am

Sionis Prioratus wrote:OOC: Heck, Sionis Prioratus itself is played as a "Jewish Kingdom", and there's a lot of Catholic,


OOC: It could be considered Branding then. :p

User avatar
Grays Harbor
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18574
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Grays Harbor » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:28 am

Whether legal or illegal because of "branding and/or RW references", we still find the entire concept to be faulty, a repeal based on the idea that things are not defined to death to cover every possible instance. There is such a thing as over-mandating, and most nations do not require every little thing be spelled out ad nauseum so the WA can hold our hands and coo soft "we'll take care of everything for you, don't you worry" assurances to us.
Everything you know about me is wrong. Or a rumor. Something like that.

Not Ta'veren

User avatar
Omigodtheykilledkenny
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5744
Founded: Mar 14, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Omigodtheykilledkenny » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:31 am

Sionis Prioratus wrote:OOC: Heck, Sionis Prioratus itself is played as a "Jewish Kingdom", and there's a lot of Catholic, Jewish and Muslim Nations and Regions across NS.

Bob, can we get an official ruling about this? If ruled illegal, please remove it from the queue, so SP can submit a denomination-neutral text.

Thank you. :)

"Bob" is a forum mod, not a GM, so his opinion isn't binding anyway. But he and Ard (and whoever else is handling the WA nowadays) should definitely talk it over.
Last edited by Omigodtheykilledkenny on Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
Omigodtheykilledkenny FAQ | "The Biggest Sovereigntist IN THE WORLD" - Chester Pearson

User avatar
Glen-Rhodes
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9027
Founded: Jun 25, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Glen-Rhodes » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:31 am

(OOC: Does it matter if it's a RL reference, since the repeal's argument is simply 'this thing is too vague'? I'm going to agree with Enn on the Reasonable Nations convention. In my interpretation, if a government were to feed cockroaches to one prisoner as their 'adequate meal', they would have to feed it to all other prisoners, per the CoCR. The same goes for reasonable comfort level, visitation rights, and punishment for misconduct. No ***reasonable*** nation is going to subject all of their prisoners culturally 'illegal' treatment. They would be facing quite the angry populace. Somebody who knows more can correct me if I am wrong.

Also, why is there a [sic]? 'They' can be singular as well...)

User avatar
Flibbleites
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 6569
Founded: Jan 02, 2004
Ex-Nation

Postby Flibbleites » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:37 am

Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:
Sionis Prioratus wrote:OOC: Heck, Sionis Prioratus itself is played as a "Jewish Kingdom", and there's a lot of Catholic, Jewish and Muslim Nations and Regions across NS.

Bob, can we get an official ruling about this? If ruled illegal, please remove it from the queue, so SP can submit a denomination-neutral text.

Thank you. :)

"Bob" is a forum mod, not a GM, so his opinion isn't binding anyway. But he and Ard (and whoever else is handling the WA nowadays) should definitely talk it over.

If you want to get technical, "Bob" isn't even a forum mod, he's a character created by the player behind The Rogue Nation of Flibbleites and that player happens to be a forum mod.

User avatar
Unibot
Senator
 
Posts: 4292
Founded: May 25, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Unibot » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:43 am

Glen-Rhodes wrote:(OOC: Does it matter if it's a RL reference, since the repeal's argument is simply 'this thing is too vague'? I'm going to agree with Enn on the Reasonable Nations convention. In my interpretation, if a government were to feed cockroaches to one prisoner as their 'adequate meal', they would have to feed it to all other prisoners, per the CoCR. The same goes for reasonable comfort level, visitation rights, and punishment for misconduct. No ***reasonable*** nation is going to subject all of their prisoners culturally 'illegal' treatment. They would be facing quite the angry populace. Somebody who knows more can correct me if I am wrong.

Also, why is there a [sic]? 'They' can be singular as well...)


OOC: Isn't putting people in prisons in the first place discriminating against prisoners?
CoCR wrote:a ) All inhabitants of member states are equal in status in law and under its actions, and have the right to equal treatment and protection by the nation they inhabit or in which they are currently present.


I suppose those, if citizens deserve protection from criminals, criminals deserve protection from vigilantes.

User avatar
Grays Harbor
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18574
Founded: Antiquity
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Grays Harbor » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:48 am

Unibot wrote:
Glen-Rhodes wrote:(OOC: Does it matter if it's a RL reference, since the repeal's argument is simply 'this thing is too vague'? I'm going to agree with Enn on the Reasonable Nations convention. In my interpretation, if a government were to feed cockroaches to one prisoner as their 'adequate meal', they would have to feed it to all other prisoners, per the CoCR. The same goes for reasonable comfort level, visitation rights, and punishment for misconduct. No ***reasonable*** nation is going to subject all of their prisoners culturally 'illegal' treatment. They would be facing quite the angry populace. Somebody who knows more can correct me if I am wrong.

Also, why is there a [sic]? 'They' can be singular as well...)


OOC: Isn't putting people in prisons in the first place discriminating against prisoners?


We do not consider it "discrimination", we more consider it "getting what they deserve and have earned through their actions".
Everything you know about me is wrong. Or a rumor. Something like that.

Not Ta'veren

User avatar
Glen-Rhodes
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9027
Founded: Jun 25, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Glen-Rhodes » Mon Dec 28, 2009 9:51 am

Unibot wrote:OOC: Isn't putting people in prisons in the first place discriminating against prisoners?
CoCR wrote:a ) All inhabitants of member states are equal in status in law and under its actions, and have the right to equal treatment and protection by the nation they inhabit or in which they are currently present.


I suppose those, if citizens deserve protection from criminals, criminals deserve protection from vigilantes.

OOC: No, because all citizens are equal under the laws sending them to prison; we both would go to prison for committing the same felony, for example. If the government hand-picked people, based on skin color, to spend the rest of their lives in prison, for whatever reasons they pulled out of the asses, then it would be against the CoCR.

User avatar
Mad Sheep Railgun
Diplomat
 
Posts: 592
Founded: Jun 27, 2009
Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Mad Sheep Railgun » Mon Dec 28, 2009 10:21 am

I'm a little surprised that there is so much opposition to this repeal. There was much support for a repeal in the At Vote thread. Is it because of the arguments Sionis is using? Is it because of the (admittedly excessive) use of bold type, italics and underlining? Is it because over time many of you have come to like the vagueness of the original? Is it because Sionis has proposed it?

Personally I found the original to be overly vague and sloppily written. I can appreciate the vagueness of the original because it's exploitable and I can see the utility of keeping it around for that reason. The sloppiness is another matter and for that reason alone I'd like to see it repealed.
OOC puppet of Yelda

Next

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General Assembly

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: The Ice States

Advertisement

Remove ads