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[DRAFT] National Airspace Act/ On the Control of Airsp

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Should all of our clauses be numbered (including other drafts/proposals, too?)

Yes, please!
37
67%
Nope.
8
15%
I'm fine with anything.
10
18%
 
Total votes : 55

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Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 16989
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Separatist Peoples » Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:47 pm

Tinfect wrote:
Kilimantonian wrote:The noble Ambassador Markhov does make some interesting points, all of which are relevant to us, as we also have sovereignty over our planet. Yet I do believe that by taking your grievance to the committee founded in GAR 168, the World Assembly Nautical Commission, they would resolve that error and give you complete control over your planetary waters.


"This is not the case, the World Assembly Nautical Commission has only the authority to arbitrate the interpretation of the Resolution, between Member States, in the event of conflicting interpretations. They do not have the authority to alter Resolution 168's mandates on International Waters."

Araraukar wrote:But if one nation controls the entire planet, doesn't that just mean that every square kilometre of the surface is controlled by that one nation, or, to fit this proposal, "within its jurisdiction" and "within its borders", as the planet would in effect be without a border that would define anything to be outside the nation that controls it?


"No, this is, unfortunately, not the case. Resolution 168 Mandates the creation of 'International Waters' without regard to the status of a Member State that may render such things pointless, at best, and actively damaging, at worst. This Proposal, with Resolution 168 active, would require that the airspace above International Waters, be also considered International Territory, which poses an unacceptable threat to the National Security of Nations that maintain control over the whole of their planet's surface."


A) Waters within 24 nautical miles (‘NM’) of a member nation's sea border, and any further waters that are enclosed by these, shall be considered that nation’s 'Territorial Waters' over which the nation shall have sovereign control and may enforce any and all of its own laws;


"From GAR#168. If you own the entirety of the planet, all coastal territory is, legally speaking, defining your land borders. The waters enclosed by this border, plus twenty four nautical miles, would be all of them. If you want to argue that, in the cases where water covers a larger portion of surface than the sea, and therefore doesn't technically enclose anything, I would point out that it is not an unreasonable statutory interpretation to state that, if all land borders are owned by a single nation, their seas are, if not literally, technically enclosing all open waters.

"Statutory interpretation requires the letter of the law, but World Assembly resolutions are not laws. They are directives to create laws, and we write them tightly to avoid the kind of loophole exploitation that exists when no interpretive body exists. Our national governments have the advantage of judicial bodies to consider precedence and the spirit of the law to address situations for which there exists no clause or addendum to cover. Nothing, then, prevents your judicial from interpreting the laws the Imperium makes, in response to this directive, to consider all the bodies of water on a planet owned by a single nation to be territorial waters. It is practical and reasonable to make that assumption based on your uncontested control of the planet, and would be well within the spirit of the laws your nation would create in response to this directive. To take these international directives as purely literal is short sighted, and will only hurt you."

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Tinfect
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5235
Founded: Jul 04, 2014
Democratic Socialists

Postby Tinfect » Wed Jan 20, 2016 7:59 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
A) Waters within 24 nautical miles (‘NM’) of a member nation's sea border, and any further waters that are enclosed by these, shall be considered that nation’s 'Territorial Waters' over which the nation shall have sovereign control and may enforce any and all of its own laws;


"From GAR#168. If you own the entirety of the planet, all coastal territory is, legally speaking, defining your land borders. The waters enclosed by this border, plus twenty four nautical miles, would be all of them. If you want to argue that, in the cases where water covers a larger portion of surface than the sea, and therefore doesn't technically enclose anything, I would point out that it is not an unreasonable statutory interpretation to state that, if all land borders are owned by a single nation, their seas are, if not literally, technically enclosing all open waters.


"Upon further review, this does appear to be the case.
The Imperium withdraws its objections to this resolution, and is prepared to support it, should it arrive at vote."
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Araraukar
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15899
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:38 am

Tinfect wrote:This Proposal, with Resolution 168 active, would require that the airspace above International Waters, be also considered International Territory

I don't see this proposal mentioning international waters anywhere. It mentions "outside of jurisdiction" and "outside of the nations' borders", neither of which would apply to a wholly owned planet. The waters themselves may work the way the earlier resolution states, but not the airspace above the waters.
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Bears Armed
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Posts: 21479
Founded: Jun 01, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bears Armed » Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:39 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:
A) Waters within 24 nautical miles (‘NM’) of a member nation's sea border, and any further waters that are enclosed by these, shall be considered that nation’s 'Territorial Waters' over which the nation shall have sovereign control and may enforce any and all of its own laws;


"From GAR#168. If you own the entirety of the planet, all coastal territory is, legally speaking, defining your land borders. The waters enclosed by this border, plus twenty four nautical miles, would be all of them. If you want to argue that, in the cases where water covers a larger portion of surface than the sea, and therefore doesn't technically enclose anything, I would point out that it is not an unreasonable statutory interpretation to state that, if all land borders are owned by a single nation, their seas are, if not literally, technically enclosing all open waters."


"That was certainly the interpretation that we intended -- and that I explained during the relevant debate -- when we produced the resolution in question."

Artorrios o SouthWoods,
ChairBear, Bears Armed Mission at the World Assembly.

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Imperium Anglorum
GA Secretariat
 
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Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Thu Jan 21, 2016 3:32 pm

Why the nautical commission? (sarcasm: you should revive the World Space Administration! :lol2: )

I don't see the Global Disarmament rationale though.

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Whovian Tardisia
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Founded: Jun 25, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Whovian Tardisia » Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:09 pm

Perhaps because the IATA isn't a WA committee. If they were, they may have been more suitable.
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Elke and Elba
Minister
 
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Founded: Aug 24, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Elke and Elba » Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:08 am

Whovian Tardisia wrote:Perhaps because the IATA isn't a WA committee. If they were, they may have been more suitable.


Indeed.

After all, nautical does refer to navigation as well, so it should be acceptable. Or just take it as though we forgot 'aero' in front.

As usual, I'm in the slow broil process, because I have yet implemented what the urrsish delegates have mentioned, and not yet solved the problem IA and SP raised.
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Elke and Elba
Minister
 
Posts: 2761
Founded: Aug 24, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Elke and Elba » Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:53 am

I just happen to realise this is the second anniversary of this draft.

I know, I know, I'm just as busy as Bears Armed to make substantial changes... But not, it's still not forgotten. ;)

That's a codeword to please discuss as well.
:)
Represented permanently at the World Assembly by Benjamin Olafsen, and on an ad-hoc basis by Alethea Norrland and rarely Gaia Pao and Gabriel Dzichpol.
OOCly retired from the GA/SC for something called 'real life'.
Author of GA#288 and SC#148.
Ratateague wrote:NationStates seems to hate the Geneva Convention. I've lost count in how many times someone has tried to introduce something like it. Why they don't like it is a mystery to me. Probably a lot of jingoist wingnuts.
Ardchoille wrote:When you consider that (violet) once changed the colour of the whole game for one player ... you can understand how seriously NS takes its players.

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United Great Britian
Ambassador
 
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Founded: Feb 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby United Great Britian » Sun Mar 13, 2016 4:31 am

I find that the first clause is ambiguous as to the fact that borders have previously been thought of two-dimensional things. However, given the concept being discussed in this rule it may be helpful to rethink borders as three-dimensional spheres around the capital of a nation.
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Separatist Peoples
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 16989
Founded: Feb 17, 2011
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Separatist Peoples » Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:03 am

United Great Britian wrote:I find that the first clause is ambiguous as to the fact that borders have previously been thought of two-dimensional things. However, given the concept being discussed in this rule it may be helpful to rethink borders as three-dimensional spheres around the capital of a nation.
- David Gorge
Prime Minister of United Great Britian

"Not all nations have central capitals. This would be a gross misrepresentation of territory."

OOC: like the US, UK, or basically any real life nation.

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Separatist Peoples should RESIGN!

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United Great Britian
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1350
Founded: Feb 09, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby United Great Britian » Sun Mar 13, 2016 5:06 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:
United Great Britian wrote:I find that the first clause is ambiguous as to the fact that borders have previously been thought of two-dimensional things. However, given the concept being discussed in this rule it may be helpful to rethink borders as three-dimensional spheres around the capital of a nation.
- David Gorge
Prime Minister of United Great Britian

"Not all nations have central capitals. This would be a gross misrepresentation of territory."

OOC: like the US, UK, or basically any real life nation.

I accept the view of the representative from Separatist Peoples. However, I still believe that we should gain a better understanding of borders and territory that the previous two-dimensional understanding, but I will agree that measuring it from a single point will not work well as the representative from the Separatist Peoples points out.
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Imperium Anglorum
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 12659
Founded: Aug 26, 2013
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Imperium Anglorum » Sun Mar 13, 2016 6:33 am

Separatist Peoples wrote:OOC: like the US, UK, or basically any real life nation.

But London really is the centre of the world. Just look at the Prime Meridian. /s

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Elke and Elba
Minister
 
Posts: 2761
Founded: Aug 24, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Elke and Elba » Sun Oct 23, 2016 8:41 am

I guess it's time to review this again. :p

It's 2 and a half years and RL is finally slowing a bit. It's kind of ridiculous I'm not done with this - and in the entire time I'm done with two rounds of university applications, quite a lot of stuff, and almost done with conscription.

Suggestions? I'm still considering what IA said the other time, but poking holes is always a good idea for writing a better proposal.
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Ratateague wrote:NationStates seems to hate the Geneva Convention. I've lost count in how many times someone has tried to introduce something like it. Why they don't like it is a mystery to me. Probably a lot of jingoist wingnuts.
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Whovian Tardisia
Diplomat
 
Posts: 779
Founded: Jun 25, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Whovian Tardisia » Sun Oct 23, 2016 1:59 pm

We believe that it should be clarified that a state's border extends vertically to the edge of space line, to avoid possible loophole discoveries.
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Araraukar
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 15899
Founded: May 14, 2007
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Araraukar » Wed Nov 02, 2016 10:37 am

Whovian Tardisia wrote:We believe that it should be clarified that a state's border extends vertically to the edge of space line, to avoid possible loophole discoveries.

But what about nations like Tinfect, which control massive areas of interstellar space? Or even smaller ones, which still control an entire solar system. I'm sure they would argue that their borders don't stop at the upper edge of a planet's atmoshphere.
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The Greater Siriusian Domain
Diplomat
 
Posts: 920
Founded: Mar 08, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby The Greater Siriusian Domain » Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:42 pm

Araraukar wrote:
Whovian Tardisia wrote:We believe that it should be clarified that a state's border extends vertically to the edge of space line, to avoid possible loophole discoveries.

But what about nations like Tinfect, which control massive areas of interstellar space? Or even smaller ones, which still control an entire solar system. I'm sure they would argue that their borders don't stop at the upper edge of a planet's atmoshphere.


Teran Saber: "Indeed. The Greater Siriusian Domain considers its territory to be a 3-dimensional area of space that can be roughly defined by drawing lines between every outermost system in the confederacy, independent enclave systems not withstanding. This results in borders oddly reminiscent of a Terran cucumber. Under this proposal and how the 'edge of space' is defined within it, however, it would reduce our territory to the surfaces of member worlds with atmospheres thick enough for aerodynamic flight, which would allow anyone to cruise through our space or even extract resources from airless planets, moons and asteroids within the Confederacy with impunity."
Last edited by The Greater Siriusian Domain on Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Elke and Elba
Minister
 
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Founded: Aug 24, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Elke and Elba » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:16 am

Araraukar wrote:
Whovian Tardisia wrote:We believe that it should be clarified that a state's border extends vertically to the edge of space line, to avoid possible loophole discoveries.

But what about nations like Tinfect, which control massive areas of interstellar space? Or even smaller ones, which still control an entire solar system. I'm sure they would argue that their borders don't stop at the upper edge of a planet's atmoshphere.


The Greater Siriusian Domain wrote:
Araraukar wrote:But what about nations like Tinfect, which control massive areas of interstellar space? Or even smaller ones, which still control an entire solar system. I'm sure they would argue that their borders don't stop at the upper edge of a planet's atmoshphere.


Teran Saber: "Indeed. The Greater Siriusian Domain considers its territory to be a 3-dimensional area of space that can be roughly defined by drawing lines between every outermost system in the confederacy, independent enclave systems not withstanding. This results in borders oddly reminiscent of a Terran cucumber. Under this proposal and how the 'edge of space' is defined within it, however, it would reduce our territory to the surfaces of member worlds with atmospheres thick enough for aerodynamic flight, which would allow anyone to cruise through our space or even extract resources from airless planets, moons and asteroids within the Confederacy with impunity."


From the original intent since I drafted this was to make sure that unambiguous control of airspace to the Karman line, and not care beyond that as it is not the remit of this proposal. Tinfect's example was one of the very early things that I thought when I drafted the edge of space line portion. This is why the proposal has the clause:

7. CLARIFIES that nothing in this resolution applies to outer space, extrasolar space or extragalactic space, and any jurisdiction granted to member states are limited to the altitude where the edge of space line is, as determined by the WANC in the previous clause, and;


(which I should include to clarify as well that jurisdiction beyond the edge of space line is not within the remit of this resolution, since you've brought it up.)

Yet I do concur that the wording needs to be changed in order to increase ambiguity beyond the Karman/edge of space line to allow Tinfect/The Greater Siriusian Domain control as it already is/or whatever to be to be outside the remit of this proposal - since whatever's outside of that should not be the nosy business of this proposal.

I am of the opinion that I should change

3. ACKNOWLEDGES that,

a) all airspace within a member state's border, shall be considered that member state's 'Controlled Airspace', which the said member state shall have sovereign control and may enforce any and all of its own laws;
b) all airspace that are not within the borders of any state, shall be considered “International Airspace” and will not be subjected to any control unless dictated otherwise by this Assembly;


to

3. ACKNOWLEDGES that,

all airspace within a member state's border, shall be considered that member state's 'Controlled Airspace', which the said member state shall have sovereign control and may enforce any and all of its own laws;


Without sub-clause b, it therefore only legislates upon the fact that the "Controlled Airspace" is de facto and de jure the airspace of the state, but not the fact that the airspace beyond it is or is not the airspace of the state - leaving an intentional loophole (that was always intended) due to the scenarios that you have stated (and I unfortunately agree wasn't the most comprehensively fool-proofed when the draft was first tabled). Concurrently, the changes in clause 7 also ensures that this proposal legislates only to the edge-of-space line and that everything outside of that is up to the free will of states.
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Ratateague wrote:NationStates seems to hate the Geneva Convention. I've lost count in how many times someone has tried to introduce something like it. Why they don't like it is a mystery to me. Probably a lot of jingoist wingnuts.
Ardchoille wrote:When you consider that (violet) once changed the colour of the whole game for one player ... you can understand how seriously NS takes its players.

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