The Dark Star Republic wrote:OOC: GHR filed on the category.
I respect the fact you were open enough to publish it but call dick move at the same time and leave it at that.
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by Abacathea » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:00 am
The Dark Star Republic wrote:OOC: GHR filed on the category.
by The Dark Star Republic » Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:04 am
by Ardchoille » Mon Feb 10, 2014 3:49 am
Abacathea wrote:The Dark Star Republic wrote:[MODEDIT]: Spoiler tags removed for clarity. What follows is OOC.[/MODEDIT]I know people get pretty flexible with the Human Rights category, but this really seems like more of a Moral Decency resolution. Does anything in this proposal actually increase civil freedom from government? All of it seems to restrain action: you can't do this, that, or the other.
I'm open to suggestions on this, but I would be inclined to think the category as it stands is right, it is the protection of freedoms to an extent within a warzone time will placing conditions on it. But if arguments can be made and supported I'm open to consideration.
Aba
... affect civil freedoms. "Human Rights" increases these freedoms while "Moral Decency" reduces them. Remember that these freedoms primarily discuss the domestic Civil policies of WA member nations; Shall the WA require its members to exert more or less control over the personal aspects of the lives of their citizens/subjects? If it's an issue about how you choose to live your life (or if you have a choice), then it's Civil Freedoms.
by Abacathea » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:54 am
The Dark Star Republic wrote:OOC: I'm not sure what's so dickish about it. I voiced my opposition to the category several times prior to submission, and you didn't give a response beyond "I still disagree on the category, but that's allowed ".
Ardchoille wrote:One of the reasons authors get annoyed by GHRs making legality challenges is the feeling that the whole process takes place without their having a say.
Ardchoille wrote:In this case we've got the luxury of a few days to spare before a decision absolutely has to be made, partly because the GHR went in almost immediately. So let's do this thing. Abacathea, could you please supply a fuller response than the one quoted above. I think I know what you're getting at, but I'm not sure, nor am I convinced yet.
(i) The welfare of war correspondents be given equal importance and afforded the same protections as would be placed on any other civilian or non-partisan actor in a war zone.
War correspondents who choose to become a willing participant in war zone conflict in any instance other than for the purposes of self defence nullify their correspondent status at that point in time and cannot be considered a non partisan actor under the terms of this resolution.
by The Dark Star Republic » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:33 am
Abacathea wrote:The point was to ensure that a war corespondent, who 95% of the time is not a native of the area they may be located in is afforded the same basic rights and protections as any other citizen of that nation would be, evidenced through this mandate:
by Ardchoille » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:40 am
by The Dourian Embassy » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:32 am
Ardchoille wrote:At the moment (post Repeal) the GA does not oblige member states to put any restrictions on war correspondents' conduct. The conditions this proposal would impose seem to be limiting their conduct.
by The Dark Star Republic » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:35 am
The Dourian Embassy wrote:The protections afforded to the war correspondents increases freedom of expression for everyone else. I cannot think of a better category, this isn't about moral decency, it isn't about international security, it isn't about social justice, it's about freedom of the press.
by The Dourian Embassy » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:36 am
The Dark Star Republic wrote:The Dourian Embassy wrote:The protections afforded to the war correspondents increases freedom of expression for everyone else. I cannot think of a better category, this isn't about moral decency, it isn't about international security, it isn't about social justice, it's about freedom of the press.
OOC: You do realize that neither "Freedom of Expression" or "Freedom of Press" are in the Human Rights category?
by The Dark Star Republic » Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:44 am
by The Dourian Embassy » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:22 pm
The Dark Star Republic wrote:
OOC: That doesn't make any sense. You said that "Human Rights is literally the only option", because this is about "freedom of expression" and "freedom of the press". Yet the two resolutions that increase those very freedoms aren't in the Human Rights category!
Furthermore, that debate is largely academic, because this proposal doesn't actually increase freedom of expression/the press at all. It provides that "[t]he welfare of war correspondents be given equal importance and afforded the same protections as would be placed on any other civilian or non-partisan actor in a war zone". If a military authority were censoring all civilian transmissions then it wouldn't be in violation of this proposal, because it would still be treating war correspondents exactly the same as any other civilian.
by Auralia » Mon Feb 10, 2014 1:33 pm
by Draica » Mon Feb 10, 2014 4:00 pm
by The Dark Star Republic » Mon Feb 10, 2014 7:17 pm
The Dourian Embassy wrote:"A resolution to improve worldwide human and civil rights." That's the label on the Human Rights category. Just like the author of this can't point to the piece he's replacing to say "well the old one was in this category", nor can we now point to those as examples of how those rights should be protected. The category says what it says. We can't change that cause we'd like to.
You're looking at the resolution in an extremely limited scope, and wondering what everyone else is going on about. What I'm saying, at least, is that this is a broader promotion of civil rights. It increases the protections afforded to war correspondents, and therefore makes it easier and safer for reporting on the war to be done(tying into freedom of the press and freedom of expression). It increases civil rights, there's no way around that.
2. International news media organisations can only operate from within a nation's borders (ie. utilising available media technologies to report news) when given explicit permission to do so, and are subject to the same laws which apply to national news media organisations.
...
5. Reports from news media organisations operating within the nation's borders can only be censored if they pose a genuine threat to the security of the nation. Otherwise they are free to report news in accordance with any national freedom of expression laws and broadcasting codes of conduct.
by The Dourian Embassy » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:07 pm
by The Dark Star Republic » Mon Feb 10, 2014 9:48 pm
The Dourian Embassy wrote:You're specifically looking at the reporters and saying "This places limits on their actions in return for protections, this must be moral decency," but moral decency has to take rights away, which this proposal will not do.
Reporters are free to do whatever they like, and are only limited if they want the protections this proposal offers. But the protections this proposal offers are part of a grander scheme of civil rights.
It's not a nebulous idea, it's a simple flow: Nation wants to suppress knowledge of an atrocity, but the nation they're fighting with wants to find out more about it. The nation they're fighting sends reporters in and they do the story, return home. This increase of knowledge through the press is an intrinsic promotion of the freedom of press(who are freer to report honestly about the atrocity despite the originating nation not wanting it to to get out), and this proposal offers them protections to get that job done. This is big picture stuff, it's not national freedoms being increased here, it's the international freedom of the press being increased.
by Abacathea » Tue Feb 11, 2014 1:12 pm
by Ardchoille » Fri Feb 14, 2014 5:46 am
by Abacathea » Fri Feb 14, 2014 7:41 am
Ardchoille wrote:I'm sorry this was such a delayed execution; it wasn't caused by fiery mod debate right up to the last minute. In fact, there was no debate, but I had to allow time for it anyway.
I'll post a more detailed comment in about nine hours when RL gives me time to string sentences together.
by Ardchoille » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:20 am
by Ardchoilleans » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:44 am
by Abacathea » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:41 pm
Ardchoilleans wrote:What follows is advice, but not a ruling:
The WA can act only through nations/national governments. A quick check of the Human Rights resolutions suggests there are two general approaches.
In one, the WA secures individuals’ freedoms by telling governments what to do (eg, WA #7, Workplace Safety Standards). In the other, it tells governments what not to do (eg, WA # 57 Refugee Protection).
So. If you plan to re-write, you could look at it as writing a list that governments must follow to create “workplace safety” for war correspondents, or as a list of rules forbidding governments to interfere with @@actions@@ of war correspondents, or a combination.
Approaching it from “WA --> nations --> war correspondents”, rather than “WA --> war correspondents”, is more likely to help you focus on the WA enforcing or nations surrendering rights. If you're still planning on "Significant", you should also make clear the link between war correspondents’ day-to-day freedoms and more general day-to-day freedoms.
As to ideas, players have posted in this thread some things that nations might do or be prevented from doing that could increase war correspondents' civil freedoms. You might also check WA #18's treatment of civilian PoWs, and WA #164, Consular Rights, for freedoms that could be confirmed in wartime.
by Goddess Relief Office » Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:44 am
The Dark Star Republic wrote:Bear in mind what "Freedom of the Press" already permits:2. International news media organisations can only operate from within a nation's borders (ie. utilising available media technologies to report news) when given explicit permission to do so, and are subject to the same laws which apply to national news media organisations.
...
5. Reports from news media organisations operating within the nation's borders can only be censored if they pose a genuine threat to the security of the nation. Otherwise they are free to report news in accordance with any national freedom of expression laws and broadcasting codes of conduct.
This proposal cannot override Article 2, and therefore it does not actually mandate nations allow war correspondents to even enter their "war zones" in the first place. Furthermore, censorship is still permitted under Article 5, in the case of 'a genuine threat to the security of the nation', another provision this proposal cannot override.
by The Dark Star Republic » Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:09 am
Goddess Relief Office wrote:The Dark Star Republic wrote:Bear in mind what "Freedom of the Press" already permits:
This proposal cannot override Article 2, and therefore it does not actually mandate nations allow war correspondents to even enter their "war zones" in the first place. Furthermore, censorship is still permitted under Article 5, in the case of 'a genuine threat to the security of the nation', another provision this proposal cannot override.
OOC:
I'm reading 2 and 5 of FoTP a little differently. They seem to pertain specifically to news within a governed nation, not in a contested war zone which one could argue as being temporarily "state less" since government authority does not extend into that zone. Furthermore, embeded war correspondents typically do not come from the same nation that's at war. It doesn't make sense that they need permission to enter the war zone.
My guess is the clauses in FoTP were not written to deal with something like this, and shouldn't be interpreted as such.
Regards,
~GRO~
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