Corruption Bill

[Ilharessa]

"No," the ambassadoress replies. "Tribal support for World Assembly membership is not absolute."

Yea, well it is, in that compliance is mandatory throughout the nation.

A smile meets that. "Compliance is mandatory for the national government and, through it, all of the territories it administrates. We do not dispute this and the national government is in compliance. The problem is, the national government currently doesn't actually administrate any territories at this time. The tribes, and their tribal governments, are the ones who administrate the territories under their command. The national government itself exists primarily to put an end to the tribal wars that plagued the nation, serve as a mediating force for tribal conflicts, and eventually serve as a unifying force to bring the nation back together again."

[Philimbesi]

Nigel rolled his eyes "Ah the old 'the government complies but not the people rhetoric' that's the oldest trick in the book when it comes to attempting to circumvent the WA compliance gnomes... well actually shooting them on sight is the oldest trick in the book, so we'll say it's the second oldest... anyway like it or not your nation signed off on complying and there for your government, tribes, people, flora and fauna, all comply with what is passed here... so spare us the rhetoric will you?"

[Ilharessa]

Nigel rolled his eyes "Ah the old 'the government complies but not the people rhetoric' that's the oldest trick in the book when it comes to attempting to circumvent the WA compliance gnomes... well actually shooting them on sight is the oldest trick in the book, so we'll say it's the second oldest... anyway like it or not your nation signed off on complying and there for your government, tribes, people, flora and fauna, all comply with what is passed here... so spare us the rhetoric will you?"

"The ignorance of this one is amusing," Velnayanis said while laughing. "What part of 'autonomous' are you not understanding? If a tribe really dislikes something the World Assembly does and the national government tries to force them to comply, all they have to do is remove their support for the national government and there's nothing short of another tribal war that we can do to force them to comply. At the point they remove their support, they are no longer under the jurisdiction of the national government.

"So, no, the tribes don't actually have to comply. And they can be in noncompliance with little effort and nothing more than a return to the same situation they were already used to. And, really, as rediculous as you're being, I have to wonder just how many anthills your national government puts on trial for genocide. Or how many wild dogs end up in prison for murder. Do you have a special committee that drives around and tries to enforce a dress code on cattle?"

[Philimbesi]

Nigel sighed kids he thought.

"Surely a group of people so advanced as you can understand a metaphor or a turn of a phrase, from one as ignorant as I? Or do you need to check in with your tribes to find what that means? Someone with your vast 16 days of experience in this body is much more able to explain the way WA laws are enforced than someone such as I with a mere 2 years of WA experience? None-the-less you keep on believing whatever you'd like about how things work here."

Nigel smiled... and nodded his head.

[Philimbesi]

Nigel turned his attention to the delegate from Elktown. "I appologize for my digression from the topic on hand. " My suggestion would be to pursue a transparency of government style resolution and not to concern yourself with the enforcement aspect. We feel as though while it would be a very difficult thing to get passed in this body, it would be a worthy piece of legislation to try."

[Ilharessa]

Nigel sighed kids he thought.

"Surely a group of people so advanced as you can understand a metaphor or a turn of a phrase, from one as ignorant as I? Or do you need to check in with your tribes to find what that means? Someone with your vast 16 days of experience in this body is much more able to explain the way WA laws are enforced than someone such as I witha mere 2 years of WA experience? None-the-less you keep on believing whatever you'd like about how things work here."

Nigel smiled... and nodded his head.

"Well, we are advanced enough to properly do addition and subtraction. For one thing, you're describing the length of time we have been a nation. For another, we've been monitoring the outside world for quite some time and have made it a point to look over a variety of laws and issues of how compliance works. And, for a third, we understand our own political situation enough to know that compliance cannot be enforced on every tribe simply because the tribes themselves have a way out of being part of the nation.

"Or did you not figure it out from what I've said? Any tribe that doesn't like what the national government is doing can protest the actions and, if they don't like it enough, they can simply quit the national government. In quitting the national government, they withdraw from the nation itself. Legally, we can try to enforce laws upon their lands anyway. Realistically, there isn't anything we can do without causing our government to dissolve under the weight of another tribal war. Nor does the government itself actually govern the land... it governs the tribal leaders, who are the ones who actually govern the land. The national government itself does not collect taxes or raise armies, but gets the tribal leaders to donate money and troops.

"Now, since the government's actual jurisdiction is only over around one hundred people in total, including myself, and every else is ruled by what are effectively separate nations in all but name... Tell me, in what way do the tribes have to actually comply? I could let you try to explain that to the tribal leaders... but they'd either laugh you out of the nation, kill you for wasting their time, or ask why someone let an animal within their presense and ignore you as nothing more than a dog who is barking too much.

"Really, for two years of experience, I expected you'd actually be better at arguing with me. But, then, I'm far more used to arguing with people who know how to argue back instead of trying to use the cheap trick of relying upon age when they realize they're outmatched.

"Oh, and since, as you put it, the 'government, tribes, people, flora and fauna' of my people all have to obey World Assembly law, please feel free to try to explain to some of the plants why their natural defenses must be exchanged for more... conventional means. And, no, we won't point out to you which ones secrete contact poisons."

[Philimbesi]

Once again, my comment about flora and fauna was simply a metaphor to try and make it clear that compliance is mandatory through-out your boarders and you can't circumvent it by saying we have no control over the tribal leaders. Further, there are nations in this body that are made up of sentient flora and fauna and not knowing the exact makeup of your nation I could not be sure. I'll make it a note that in the future I must speak only literally to your delegation.

Further, this is the last we will address this topic as this is meant to be a discussion of a potential Corruption Bill from the Delegate from Elktown and we don't feel the need to declare a winner or loser in the tired discussion of how WA Compliant nations don't realize they really are in compliance. I'm fare more used to arguing with nations that accept the rules of the WA as opposed to those who make up their own, or at least those who make up far more interesting methods of circumventing the rules.

[Enn]

Nigel sighed kids he thought.

"Surely a group of people so advanced as you can understand a metaphor or a turn of a phrase, from one as ignorant as I? Or do you need to check in with your tribes to find what that means? Someone with your vast 16 days of experience in this body is much more able to explain the way WA laws are enforced than someone such as I with a mere 2 years of WA experience? None-the-less you keep on believing whatever you'd like about how things work here."

Nigel smiled... and nodded his head.

OOC:
:: Looks at join date ::
:: looks at Philembesi's join date ::
:: remembers the Great Dodgeball War ::

If we're gonna pull seniority, then let's do it properly. You can RP non-compliance, in RPs that are specifically based upon the act of non-compliance. All-round non-compliance isn't allowed, but specific ones, done properly, can be great opportunities for RPing.

[Philimbesi]

OCC: Yea I know... Nigel was bored...I wasn't serious... Hell I have a compliance gnome locked up in a closet in my presidential compound...

[Ilharessa]

Velnayanis simply sighs and shakes her head. "This is like trying to debate with a domesticated elephant. You speak and you speak and you speak and all you get in response is a look begging you for peanuts.

"Whether or not the statement was a metaphor, the statement was still rediculous to say. This is an assembly that has a nation made up of bears within it, and I know I have seen a talking skull around a few times. One of the first things you learn about negotiation and politics is not to make statements like that when you have living examples of how it could be taken literally as part of your group. I never in my life thought I would be helping debate policy that would affect the civil rights of bears. Next time, think more carefully about the people who make up this assembly that we have seen actually speaking in it before using such a phrase again.

"Secondly, I've been trying to tell you something this entire time, which you've not been listening to. Something which, obviously, I have to spell out. I had hoped an experienced diplomat would figure out something so blindingly obvious without me having to state it. But, then, I can see I was wrong. So, I shall state it.

"What you've not been figuring out: Not all of the tribes are part of the national government. That is why it is that the World Assembly resolutions do not apply to all of the tribes, why it is some of them can safely ignore the resolutions, and why it is that there is nothing you can do to force compliance and they are not breaking any rules by being in noncompliance. They are not even part of the World Assembly to begin with.

"Now, you're probably wondering about our membership. The answer is simple: We needed a way to force the people to look beyond themselves while we work to put the nation back together. And what better way is there than focusing all of their attention on the outside world and giving them plenty of reasons to get along with each other?

"And as for not controlling the tribal leaders: That's not why the national government exists. It exists to help promote an end to the tribal wars, which it has done, and eventually work towards reunifying the nation. Not a single bit of that mission says anything about controlling the tribal leaders.

"And this corruption bill: I've already addressed why it won't work."

[Ilharessa]

OCC: Yea I know... Nigel was bored...I wasn't serious... Hell I have a compliance gnome locked up in a closet in my presidential compound...

OOC: Please forgive this double post.

I was, personally, enjoying the debate. Velnayanis is, well, an uppity bitch and I enjoyed the chance to make it perfectly obvious and put her in a position where she has to reveal something she'd rather not

Anyway, back to topic for me.

[Philimbesi]

OOC: Yea I was enjoying it as well, I just feel bad about the threadjack. Nigel is, well an uppity bastard so it looks like the beginning of a beautiful friendship

[Nuevo Nihongo]

"Well you two have fun, but leave us to our well earned corruption, Please!"

[Elktown]

Does anyone here have extremely good writing skills that also has ideas about this that could help me write-up a proposal?

[Serrland]

Serrland strongly applauds the courage of the delegate from Elktown, who seems dedicated to the idea of an anti-corruption bill despite nearly unanimous comments opposing such a piece of legislation.

[Ilharessa]

"It is not that we do not support the idea of such a resolution; it is that we do not believe it possible given the word limit," Velnayanis said. "Our private estimate puts the wording we would need for such a law, to truly cover the entirety of the World Assembly, at eighty to ninety thousand words. The proposal author does not even have five percent of that amount to work with."

[Krioval]

Does anyone here have extremely good writing skills that also has ideas about this that could help me write-up a proposal?

It depends on the scope of the proposal that Your Excellency is looking to create. It is preferred for the nation that intends to submit a piece of legislation to provide most of the creative effort in the drafting stage - let's begin with the broad ideas, at the very least, before worrying about the actual phrasing.

[Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

[Elktown]

I personally think that most people.... NOT ALL..... who oppose an anti-corruption bill are themselves at fault.

[Grays Harbor]

I personally think that most people.... NOT ALL..... who oppose an anti-corruption bill are themselves at fault.

"Blame the dissenters" is an old and tired debate method, and not one of the more effective ones.

I cannot speak for anybody else, but I oppose this because it is my belief that any 'anti-corruption' resolution from the WA would be too generic and wide sweeping, and I tend to oppose all one-size-fits-all proposals.

[Charlotte Ryberg]

There are many different types of governments and corruption is a rather ambiguous term, so therefore in my opinion, I would leave the tackling of corruption to national governments. Some resolutions already passed address some parts of corruption, like Patient Access Rights and Freedom of Expression. Such resolutions tackle corruption behind the scenes, even if some nations do not notice it.

Yours etc,

[Serrland]

I personally think that most people.... NOT ALL..... who oppose an anti-corruption bill are themselves at fault.

The delegate from Serrland scratches his head, baffled as to how a petty personal attack will sway anyone to support an anti-corruption resolution.

[Stewies Room]

Perhaps a Resolution that Member Nations be more Resolute in fighting Corruption?

[Bazatia]

Personally, I like the idea of less corruption. But I also think what qualifies as corruption differs from country to country. I am against "one-size-fits-all" bills because I would not want one that I do not agree with, and could not support a bill that goes against the majority of citizen's opinions in a given country.

[Hirota]

I cannot speak for anybody else, but I oppose this because it is my belief that any 'anti-corruption' resolution from the WA would be too generic and wide sweeping, and I tend to oppose all one-size-fits-all proposals.

My government holds the opinion that the main solution for "combatting" corruption is greater transparency in public office. Would the honoured ambassador agree with this in principle?

Edit and OOC: I do like how "one-size-fits-all" has replaced "national sovereignty" as the buzz phrase around these parts

[Burninati0n]

What are you going to do, outlaw corruption and that will make it disappear?