Corruption Bill

[Ilharessa]

My government holds the opinion that the main solution for "combatting" corruption is greater transparency in public office. Would the honoured ambassador agree with this in principle?

"Our surpreme leader is a queen. If she decides she's going to murder babies once a week, how will the fact you require her to admit to it stop her from doing it?" Velnayanis asked.

[Flibbleites]

What are you going to do, outlaw corruption and that will make it disappear?

No, they'll pay people to ignore it.

Bob Flibble
WA Representative

[Grays Harbor]

I cannot speak for anybody else, but I oppose this because it is my belief that any 'anti-corruption' resolution from the WA would be too generic and wide sweeping, and I tend to oppose all one-size-fits-all proposals.

My government holds the opinion that the main solution for "combatting" corruption is greater transparency in public office. Would the honoured ambassador agree with this in principle?

Edit and OOC: I do like how "one-size-fits-all" has replaced "national sovereignty" as the buzz phrase around these parts

It is more appropriate, because that truly is what these proposals which try to legislate a complex issue which varies from nation to nation with one simple solution based on the proposers own nation or belief system.

[Hirota]

My government holds the opinion that the main solution for "combatting" corruption is greater transparency in public office. Would the honoured ambassador agree with this in principle?

"Our surpreme leader is a queen. If she decides she's going to murder babies once a week, how will the fact you require her to admit to it stop her from doing it?" Velnayanis asked.

Aside from the breach in other resolutions (such as #19, and possibly #38), what makes you assume that I care?
If it's wrong, or rather, if your population thinks it's wrong enough to rise up in open rebellion against your baby-killing despot, then it might make her think twice, wouldn't you say?
Of course, I imagine her majesty doesn't practice such acts, and you are just trying to create an absurd scenario.

[Ilharessa]

My government holds the opinion that the main solution for "combatting" corruption is greater transparency in public office. Would the honoured ambassador agree with this in principle?

"Our surpreme leader is a queen. If she decides she's going to murder babies once a week, how will the fact you require her to admit to it stop her from doing it?" Velnayanis asked.

Aside from the breach in other resolutions (such as #19, and possibly #38), what makes you assume that I care?
If it's wrong, or rather, if your population thinks it's wrong enough to rise up in open rebellion against your baby-killing despot, then it might make her think twice, wouldn't you say?
Of course, I imagine her majesty doesn't practice such acts, and you are just trying to create an absurd scenario.

"If she were really murdering children every week, we're pretty certain that a little thing like international law wouldn't make a difference," Velnayanis said. "And, before you call the scenario absurd, let me remind you of the absurdity of having to make laws that cover bears and talking skulls. We deal with far more absurd things than a simple case of some elected official abusing their power to commit simple murder on a daily basis within this organization. Or have you forgotten that you are talking to what your culture might erroneously call an 'elf?'

"In any case, I use that scenario, even though it is not happening, to illustrate a particular point you helped drive home: What is the point of making a law about corruption if it will not be effective? Your question about why you should care if it actually stops the corruption highlighted by an official doing child murder on national television highlights exactly the issue with legislating on this. Anything we come up with which fits within the length limit will never manage to simultaneously cover all nations and actually be effective enough to rate anything stronger than mild, with even a rating that strong being arguable. If you cannot make a law on corruption that applies as much to a republic as to the scenario I presented above and actually be effective in stopping the corruption, then what is the point of even passing the law at all? Passing an ineffective law is worse than passing no law at all because an ineffective law serves to impede future passage of effective legislation."

[Grays Harbor]

Brikkel snickered from behind his newspaper as he listened to the Ambassador from Ilharessa speak, "I love it when one of my more learned colleagues puts these whippersnappers in their place and pulls them down off their moralistic little high horses."

[Krioval]

"If she were really murdering children every week, we're pretty certain that a little thing like international law wouldn't make a difference," Velnayanis said. "And, before you call the scenario absurd, let me remind you of the absurdity of having to make laws that cover bears and talking skulls. We deal with far more absurd things than a simple case of some elected official abusing their power to commit simple murder on a daily basis within this organization. Or have you forgotten that you are talking to what your culture might erroneously call an 'elf?'

Don't make me yawn, Excellency. If your Queen decided to murder babies on a weekly basis, she would probably also pull Ilharessa from the WA. While a certain degree of cunning is accepted, even admired, when dealing with compliance regulations, petulantly declaring one's ability to ignore WA resolutions wholesale despite membership is tiresome. And let's please not trivialize infanticide - some of us disapprove strongly of that practice.

As for your biological makeup, we Kriovallers are nearly impossible to shock on that front, given the degree of genetic engineering that goes on back home. Even then, murder rates more highly on items of notice than racial composition. We hope Your Excellency learns a sense of perspective on these matters.

"In any case, I use that scenario, even though it is not happening, to illustrate a particular point you helped drive home: What is the point of making a law about corruption if it will not be effective? Your question about why you should care if it actually stops the corruption highlighted by an official doing child murder on national television highlights exactly the issue with legislating on this. Anything we come up with which fits within the length limit will never manage to simultaneously cover all nations and actually be effective enough to rate anything stronger than mild, with even a rating that strong being arguable. If you cannot make a law on corruption that applies as much to a republic as to the scenario I presented above and actually be effective in stopping the corruption, then what is the point of even passing the law at all? Passing an ineffective law is worse than passing no law at all because an ineffective law serves to impede future passage of effective legislation."

A properly written law to make government actions more transparent would not necessarily reduce corruption, but it would bring it into the full view of the public. For those nations with representative governments, their citizenry would then obviously have the choice to retain or dump their elected officials. Those in less representative nations might tolerate the situation (or even approve) or be faced with the prospect of organizing a coup or revolution. That has been the suggestion of the Imperial Chiefdom. A blanket "corruption ban" would have no effect; on that point, Your Excellency, Krioval concurs. We are inclined to give this idea's promoter some time to compose a proposal to address the issue; if sufficient time elapses without legislation, Krioval may decide to write its own. Perhaps your insight could be used to ensure a more useful proposal, if it comes to that?

[Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

[Enn]

Brikkel snickered from behind his newspaper as he listened to the Ambassador from Ilharessa speak, "I love it when one of my more learned colleagues puts these whippersnappers in their place and pulls them down off their moralistic little high horses."

OOC: Hmph. Whippersnapper? Hirota's one of the old crew, one of the original members of UNOG.

[Grays Harbor]

Brikkel snickered from behind his newspaper as he listened to the Ambassador from Ilharessa speak, "I love it when one of my more learned colleagues puts these whippersnappers in their place and pulls them down off their moralistic little high horses."

OOC: Hmph. Whippersnapper? Hirota's one of the old crew, one of the original members of UNOG.

OOC - ok, what part of "in character" are you not getting? I have, for quite some time now, RPed Lord Brikkel as an older gentleman, a curmudgeon if you will, who considers eveybody younger than an octegenarian to be a "whippersnapper" or some such, it has nothing to do with how long or how briefly a nation has been in NS. sheesh. I'm getting a bit tired of OOC comments of things said IC, especially when the things said IC are not out of line in any way shape or form. again, sheesh.

[Enn]

Brikkel snickered from behind his newspaper as he listened to the Ambassador from Ilharessa speak, "I love it when one of my more learned colleagues puts these whippersnappers in their place and pulls them down off their moralistic little high horses."

OOC: Hmph. Whippersnapper? Hirota's one of the old crew, one of the original members of UNOG.

OOC - ok, what part of "in character" are you not getting? I have, for quite some time now, RPed Lord Brikkel as an older gentleman, a curmudgeon if you will, who considers eveybody younger than an octegenarian to be a "whippersnapper" or some such, it has nothing to do with how long or how briefly a nation has been in NS. sheesh. I'm getting a bit tired of OOC comments of things said IC, especially when the things said IC are not out of line in any way shape or form. again, sheesh.

OOC: Yeah, I do get the IC/OOC distinction. You might have noticed just how clearly I indicate when I'm posting as Stephanie, compared to myself. Had Lord Brikkel said what he did clearly, then Stephanie would likely have responded. However, I thought it might be nice, OOCly, to point out just how long Hirota's been around, since they're only recently returned to posting regularly in here. Since quite a few people don't seem to have realised that.

[Grays Harbor]

Brikkel snickered from behind his newspaper as he listened to the Ambassador from Ilharessa speak, "I love it when one of my more learned colleagues puts these whippersnappers in their place and pulls them down off their moralistic little high horses."

OOC: Hmph. Whippersnapper? Hirota's one of the old crew, one of the original members of UNOG.

OOC - ok, what part of "in character" are you not getting? I have, for quite some time now, RPed Lord Brikkel as an older gentleman, a curmudgeon if you will, who considers eveybody younger than an octegenarian to be a "whippersnapper" or some such, it has nothing to do with how long or how briefly a nation has been in NS. sheesh. I'm getting a bit tired of OOC comments of things said IC, especially when the things said IC are not out of line in any way shape or form. again, sheesh.

OOC: Yeah, I do get the IC/OOC distinction. You might have noticed just how clearly I indicate when I'm posting as Stephanie, compared to myself. Had Lord Brikkel said what he did clearly, then Stephanie would likely have responded. However, I thought it might be nice, OOCly, to point out just how long Hirota's been around, since they're only recently returned to posting regularly in here. Since quite a few people don't seem to have realised that.

You might notice I've been around for a while too.

[Hirota]

"If she were really murdering children every week, we're pretty certain that a little thing like international law wouldn't make a difference," Velnayanis said. "And, before you call the scenario absurd, let me remind you of the absurdity of having to make laws that cover bears and talking skulls. We deal with far more absurd things than a simple case of some elected official abusing their power to commit simple murder on a daily basis within this organization. Or have you forgotten that you are talking to what your culture might erroneously call an 'elf?'

It's patently not absurd, honoured ambassador, else you would not be here to talk about it. In my opinion, this multi-verse where talking skulls, elves and bears in which we all reside is far less absurd than ignoring the powahs of the gnomes. We know that elves exist - but you won't be able to name a single nation who can flout international legislation and get away with it, compliance is mandatory, regardless of how nations like to try and squirm out of their obligations.

"In any case, I use that scenario, even though it is not happening, to illustrate a particular point you helped drive home: What is the point of making a law about corruption if it will not be effective?

"I do believe that the most astute Ambassador Tyvok has communicated the point far better than I could hope to accomplish."

Brikkel snickered from behind his newspaper as he listened to the Ambassador from Ilharessa speak, "I love it when one of my more learned colleagues puts these whippersnappers in their place and pulls them down off their moralistic little high horses."

"And I love it when a member state is incapable of answering a question directly placed to them. My government asked for your opinion on a matter, it gets widely discussed on here, and all you can do is waste the assemblies time with your pedantry and snideness."

[Grays Harbor]

"Which question is it you wish answered, Sir? I shall indeed endeavor to answer fully once we can determine the direction of this debate, which, in our considered opinion has been going in so many directions at once it reminds me of a circus act. We had thought our opinion on the matter, that we are not entirely convinced that a sweeping blanket anti-corruption act by the WA is required primarily because there is no way to adequately cover each and every situation within each and every nation within the WA as what may well be "corrupt" in one nation is nothing of the sort in the next."

[Hirota]

"Which question is it you wish answered, Sir? I shall indeed endeavor to answer fully once we can determine the direction of this debate, which, in our considered opinion has been going in so many directions at once it reminds me of a circus act. We had thought our opinion on the matter, that we are not entirely convinced that a sweeping blanket anti-corruption act by the WA is required primarily because there is no way to adequately cover each and every situation within each and every nation within the WA as what may well be "corrupt" in one nation is nothing of the sort in the next."

"You should stop reading your tabloid trash, and start paying attention ambassador " http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic.php?p=1063784#p1063784
"Also, take into consideration the well presented view from Krioval, who has seems to share my governments perspective on this matter".

[Grays Harbor]

Brikkel sniffed, "This is hardly 'Tabloid Trash', ..." *looks at paper*, "... alright, so maybe this one is, but we do find it amusing on occassion, thats neither here nor there. The point is we do not believe any anti corruption resolution could adequately cover the requirements of each individual nation and that this is something best left to each nation to handle for themselves. We have great respect for our colleague from Krioval, and have discussed and collaberated on many significant issues, however, this is not something we feel we can support in any case."

[The Palentine]

What are you going to do, outlaw corruption and that will make it disappear?

No, they'll pay people to ignore it.

Bob Flibble
WA Representative

Hell....if you pay me enough, I'd probally vote for it(or against it). My scruples are quite negotiable.
Excelsior,
Sen. Horatio Sulla