(In Queue): International Postal Union

[Ilharessa]

IC - It evens out. Those who originate, get the money. That prevents each postal service a letter touches from adding their own fees and charging the destination address multitudes of fee's.

Velnayanis pursed her lips. "We would have to be opposed, then. Part of the cost within our own postal system includes protection for the carrier of the letter and the necessary costs of crossing the borders of tribal lands. Since this protection has to be in the form of armed guards to prevent one tribe from taking advantage of the mail system to disrupt mail to another, our postal system not getting paid to deliver the mail would cause problems. If you are unsure of these problems, imagine telling a bunch of people who are paid to be armed and dangerous that they're not getting any money for this job. Mail carriers have a way of mysteriously never being seen again in such instances."

I cannot see how the costs should be added to the basic postage rates except for registered rates, which may be worth elaborating on for experimental purposes.

And yes, International Postal Union (IPU) is a very acceptable name for the committee in a resolution which is taking great shape.

Velnayanis blinks. "We just recently came out of a series of tribal wars which lasted long enough that no one currently alive remembers a time before. A lot of these tribes still have 'discreet' hostilities toward each other and what government that had existed, along with all of the services it provided, dissolved when the wars began. Most people do not yet use the postal system, and those who do are still not above sabotaging mail going to their enemies. And, sadly, that does include members of the current government. As such, we do not as yet have a standard postage rate which does not also include a hefty charge to make sure the mail actually arrives. And, while our situation may be unique of those speaking here, I am pretty certain we are not the only nation with such internal problems and, as such, a problem with accepting this due to problems of practicality it does not address. You also have to consider that other member nations may descend into a situation like what we're just coming out of and how this may severely curtail the ability of their postal system to stabilize while still interacting with the international community."

[Krioval]

We could also leave the exact details of the fees to collect up to various nations to deal with. I mean, if Nation X requires 30 units of currency to deliver a letter within its borders, and Krioval requires 25 units of the same currency to deliver a letter to the borders of Nation X, then a letter should cost 55 units of currency to deliver from Krioval to its destination in Nation X. It might cost more or less to deliver a letter from Nation X to Krioval, though national governments would probably find it best to standardize rates on a bilateral basis. Keeping in mind that governments might have to raise postal rates to keep pace with inflation, it would be very difficult to universalize the process without a lot of very careful phrasing. While the Imperial Chiefdom might like the idea of a standard postal rate for international travel, it is fraught with difficulties that cannot be overcome with a simple WA proposal.

[Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

[Charlotte Ryberg]

We could also leave the exact details of the fees to collect up to various nations to deal with. I mean, if Nation X requires 30 units of currency to deliver a letter within its borders, and Krioval requires 25 units of the same currency to deliver a letter to the borders of Nation X, then a letter should cost 55 units of currency to deliver from Krioval to its destination in Nation X. It might cost more or less to deliver a letter from Nation X to Krioval, though national governments would probably find it best to standardize rates on a bilateral basis. Keeping in mind that governments might have to raise postal rates to keep pace with inflation, it would be very difficult to universalize the process without a lot of very careful phrasing. While the Imperial Chiefdom might like the idea of a standard postal rate for international travel, it is fraught with difficulties that cannot be overcome with a simple WA proposal.

[Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

Excellent idea. In which case the IRCs can be exchanged for the postage of a basic letter adjusted for inflation and travelling distance.

[Krioval]

I apologize if I am not fully informed on this issue, but what is the overall purpose of the International Reply Coupon? Since they are not required to be sold in a given nation, I suppose they are the equivalent of a pre-stamped envelope that can be used across international borders?

[Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

[Charlotte Ryberg]

I apologize if I am not fully informed on this issue, but what is the overall purpose of the International Reply Coupon? Since they are not required to be sold in a given nation, I suppose they are the equivalent of a pre-stamped envelope that can be used across international borders?

[Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

The purpose of IRCs can be compared to a pre-stamped envelope that's valid in all member states instead of a normal reply envelope that only works in one country. It is also known to be among the ways to ease the ways that people communicate (yes, not every member state has good internet access so the post offices of the world are still alive and well).

[Grays Harbor]

I agree with the good Ambassador Tyvok on the matter of reimbursement for costs incurred by public or private organisations involved in the transport of mail using an International Reply Coupon. If I am not mistaken, the current proposal seems to indicate that purchasing a single Coupon in one's home country is sufficient for the recipient of a letter to reply via standard mail, no matter how many nations are involved in the transport of this reply. This system does not indicate how the payment for the Coupon would be distributed to the nations involved or how multiple nations would be paid.

Besides this issue, the current proposal seems workable (barring further problems being found).

Rin 4
International Ambassador

there is no repayment to anybody. monies charged go to the originating nation. that is all. if the letter or IRC is purchased in country A, that one gets the money. then countries B, C, D, E, F etc carry the mail when required. when the stamps or IRC's are purchased in their country, they get the money. We thought that that had been made abundently clear through discussion and the wording of the treaty.

We do not care to open the accounting nightmare of dividing a 88p stamp that passes through 12 countries enroute to its destination into 12 equal payments all sent to those countries.

That is why the original UPU was created, and that is why this is being created.

there
is
no
dividing
of
fee's
charged

Let me be absolutely sure I understand. Postal systems are to take on the cost of fuel and the man-hours to sort through the international mail WITHOUT BEING REIMBURSED!!! OUTRAGEOUS! I would never support such a ludicrous idea.

OOC - thats how it works in the real world.

IC - It evens out. Those who originate, get the money. That prevents each postal service a letter touches from adding their own fees and charging the destination address multitudes of fee's.

OOC: No it doesn't. In the real world, a private company simply doesn't deliver where it cannot afford to go. I should know. I spent 5 years shipping books, CDs and videos for an international publisher. We had to use several companies, depending on where we shipped the product. A Carribean shipping/postal company doesn't deliver to Mongolia.

OOC - This is to cover postal services, not the multitude of courier services. Post Offices, national Post Offices, whether goevrment owned, or private postal services operating on behalf of the government; not private carriers like UPS, FedEx or any others. I dare say, if you mail a package from a caribbean post office, it will be delivered by the Mongolian Post Office should that be the final addressee.

Post Offices and Services, not private courier services.

[Grays Harbor]

We could also leave the exact details of the fees to collect up to various nations to deal with. I mean, if Nation X requires 30 units of currency to deliver a letter within its borders, and Krioval requires 25 units of the same currency to deliver a letter to the borders of Nation X, then a letter should cost 55 units of currency to deliver from Krioval to its destination in Nation X. It might cost more or less to deliver a letter from Nation X to Krioval, though national governments would probably find it best to standardize rates on a bilateral basis. Keeping in mind that governments might have to raise postal rates to keep pace with inflation, it would be very difficult to universalize the process without a lot of very careful phrasing. While the Imperial Chiefdom might like the idea of a standard postal rate for international travel, it is fraught with difficulties that cannot be overcome with a simple WA proposal.

[Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

This is not advocating a single standard postal rate. We had thought this was clear in that nations are free to charge whatever they feel is appropriate to affix as a stamp. Any monetary examples used were based upon the postal rates of my Kingdom, not meant as "this is what should be charged by everybody".

[Grays Harbor]

(OOC: I see that you, Grays Harbor, are relying upon the "real world" a bit too much. Supporting your argument with only "this is how it works in the real world" isn't a broadly accepted practice in the World Assembly. If that is how it works in the real world, you should be figuring out why it works that way, then argue those details.)

(I am sorry you disapprove of my debate method in this. I use examples I believe are an effective argument, or at least as an explanation.)

[Glen-Rhodes]

(I am sorry you disapprove of my debate method in this. I use examples I believe are an effective argument, or at least as an explanation.)

(OOC: It's fine to use real-world statistics and the like to support your argument, but it's best to do that in an OOC section of your post. The problem is that Dr. Castro can't really respond to "this is how it works in the real world", because he's a character in a game, not a person who knows all about the real-life Treaty of Berne. For me to respond to that, I would have to go into an OOC tangent on the merits of the real-life UPU... Those types of debates belong in General, not here.

It's not really a matter of me approving or disapproving of your 'debate method'. It's just how things are done here. Perhaps this will help: http://forums.joltonline.com/showpost.p ... ostcount=3 -- "Conventions in the WA Forum".)

[Burninati0n]

This updated version is a LOT better than the one I last read. Good work Greys Harbor

[Krioval]

Is the version in the first post the most current draft?

[Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

[Grays Harbor]

I believe it its, yes, unless there is further objection?

[Ambridge County]

I support this resolution. Another step toward globalized management. Good work.

[Grays Harbor]

I support this resolution. Another step toward globalized management. Good work.

We are glad you support this, however, this is in no way "globalized management". It is an international postal agreement, meant to facilitate the movement of mail.

[Krioval]

The Imperial Chiefdom finds the current draft to be solid; while we may have some minor quibbles with the reply coupon, we note that their sale is entirely voluntary.

[Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

[Charlotte Ryberg]

Just an pointer here: the title doesn't have to be in all caps: either way has an equal chance of success but mixed caps is what I prefer in my opinion.

To tidy the definitions up:

DEFINES, for the purpose of this Resolution:
• Freedom of transit, as the obligation for postal administrations to transport postal items passed on to them in transit by another postal administration within the IPU, without discriminating between domestic and international postal items;
• Hostilities, to include war, territorial dispute, trade embargo, or refusal to recognize a nation's current government;
• Hazardous materials, as any chemical or biological agent that could cause illness, injury, or death in a postal worker during routine transit;

In my opinion I am very proud of your draft: but for better referencing it may be a good idea to introduce section numbers.

Yours etc,

[Glen-Rhodes]

I believe it its, yes, unless there is further objection?

The 'freedom of transit' definition is still irresponsibly vague, and I don't think you have responded to any of the requests to change 'trade embargo' to 'trade dispute'.

[float=left]Dr. Bradford William Castro

Ambassador-at-Large,
Permanent Chief of Mission for World Assembly affairs,
the Commonwealth of Glen-Rhodes[/float][float=right][/float]

[Grays Harbor]

I believe it its, yes, unless there is further objection?

The 'freedom of transit' definition is still irresponsibly vague, and I don't think you have responded to any of the requests to change 'trade embargo' to 'trade dispute'.

[float=left]Dr. Bradford William Castro

Ambassador-at-Large,
Permanent Chief of Mission for World Assembly affairs,
the Commonwealth of Glen-Rhodes[/float][float=right][/float]

Sir, We find nothing irresponsible nor vague about the section DEFINES, for the purpose of this Resolution:
• Freedom of transit, as the obligation for postal administrations to transport postal items passed on to them in transit by another postal administration within the IPU, without discriminating between domestic and international postal items.

[Glen-Rhodes]

Sir, We find nothing irresponsible nor vague about the section DEFINES, for the purpose of this Resolution:
• Freedom of transit, as the obligation for postal administrations to transport postal items passed on to them in transit by another postal administration within the IPU, without discriminating between domestic and international postal items.

Describe to me, in detail, what it actually means in practical usage, please. Meaning, describe a scenario -- the life of a letter sent from one nation to another, perhaps -- where 'freedom of transit' comes into play.

[float=left]Dr. Bradford William Castro

Ambassador-at-Large,
Permanent Chief of Mission for World Assembly affairs,
the Commonwealth of Glen-Rhodes[/float][float=right][/float]

[Charlotte Ryberg]

Honoured ambassador, Maybe try this:

DEFINES, for the purpose of this Resolution:
• Freedom of transit, as the obligation for postal administrations to transport postal items passed on to them in transit by another postal administration within the IPU, without discriminating between domestic and international postal items, subject to the exceptions provided in section...

Hold on, since the honoured ambassador to Grays Harbor has not numbered sections I cannot easily refer where the exceptions are located at. Also, I strongly recommend you change "trade embargo" to "'trade dispute" too.

In fact, let's try the following:

International Postal Union
A resolution to reduce barriers to free trade and commerce.

Category: Free Trade
Strength: Mild
Proposed by: Grays Harbor

NOTING the diversity of national postal systems,

WORKING to eliminate inefficiencies in international postal delivery,

The World Assembly,

1. DEFINES, for the purpose of this Resolution:
• Freedom of transit, as the obligation for postal administrations to transport postal items passed on to them in transit by another postal administration within the IPU, without discriminating between domestic and international postal items, subject to the exceptions provided in section 5;
• Hostilities, to include war, territorial and/or trade disputes, or refusal to recognize a nation's current government;
• Hazardous materials, as any chemical or biological agent that could cause illness, injury, or death in a postal worker during routine transit;

2. CREATES the International Postal Union (IPU), to coordinate postal deliveries between World Assembly member states;

3. INTRODUCES the International Reply Coupon which can be exchanged for the postage rate of one basic unregistered letter to be sent to a member state within the International Postal Union, and further specifies that postal services in member states are under no obligation to issue International Reply Coupons, but are required to honour International Reply Coupon in exchange for the postage of one basic unregistered letter at the international rate;

4. GUARANTEES the freedom of transit for all postal items throughout all WA member states, except where specifically limited elsewhere in this legislation;

5. SPECIFIES that:
a) Member states currently involved in hostilities shall be under no obligation to carry mail addressed to or sent from nations engaged in hostilities with them, except where mandated by international law;
b) Member states The right of each nation to determine procedures for handling hazardous materials in postal administrations under that nation's jurisdiction, and to determine which items may or may not be transmitted through that nation's postal system; including but not limited to hazardous or illegal materials;

6. PRESERVES the right of each postal administration in member states to collect a reasonable fee for its handling of postal materials;

7. ENCOURAGES the development of fair common standards and the use of technology in postal delivery, including fee schedules and the proper handling of hazardous materials;

8. CALLS FOR monitoring and updating effective technical cooperation to meet the needs of postal customers.

Proof-read for your consideration,

[Grays Harbor]

Sir, We find nothing irresponsible nor vague about the section DEFINES, for the purpose of this Resolution:
• Freedom of transit, as the obligation for postal administrations to transport postal items passed on to them in transit by another postal administration within the IPU, without discriminating between domestic and international postal items.

Describe to me, in detail, what it actually means in practical usage, please. Meaning, describe a scenario -- the life of a letter sent from one nation to another, perhaps -- where 'freedom of transit' comes into play.

[float=left]Dr. Bradford William Castro

Ambassador-at-Large,
Permanent Chief of Mission for World Assembly affairs,
the Commonwealth of Glen-Rhodes[/float][float=right][/float]

"Yr holl nonsens, dysgu pethau nit i gwyno am, mae hyn yn beth alla i gael. How should you like it described, Sir, We are at a loss as to what you mean, because 'freedom of transit' means start at point A, pass through whatever letter of the alphabet you care to use for intermediaries, and arrive at point Z, unhindered. We are having a difficult time understanding your constant objection to what to us is a rather simple idea."

[Krioval]

Honoured ambassador, Maybe try this:

DEFINES, for the purpose of this Resolution:
• Freedom of transit, as the obligation for postal administrations to transport postal items passed on to them in transit by another postal administration within the IPU, without discriminating between domestic and international postal items, subject to the exceptions provided in section...

This is unnecessary, as the provision guaranteeing freedom of transit, part "4.)", contains the phrase "...except where specifically limited elsewhere in this legislation". The delegation from the Imperial Chiefdom was most assuredly not asleep at the switch that day; I remember clearly seeing that phrase inserted, and the staffer who wrote that section has been recommended for promotion. I would still like to see the phrasing on "trade dispute" versus "trade embargo" modified, but that is a minor issue, and one I will hesitate to press further.

[Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

[Charlotte Ryberg]

Sir, We find nothing irresponsible nor vague about the section DEFINES, for the purpose of this Resolution:
• Freedom of transit, as the obligation for postal administrations to transport postal items passed on to them in transit by another postal administration within the IPU, without discriminating between domestic and international postal items.

Describe to me, in detail, what it actually means in practical usage, please. Meaning, describe a scenario -- the life of a letter sent from one nation to another, perhaps -- where 'freedom of transit' comes into play.

[float=left]Dr. Bradford William Castro

Ambassador-at-Large,
Permanent Chief of Mission for World Assembly affairs,
the Commonwealth of Glen-Rhodes[/float][float=right][/float]

"Yr holl nonsens, dysgu pethau nit i gwyno am, mae hyn yn beth alla i gael. How should you like it described, Sir, We are at a loss as to what you mean, because 'freedom of transit' means start at point A, pass through whatever letter of the alphabet you care to use for intermediaries, and arrive at point Z, unhindered. We are having a difficult time understanding your constant objection to what to us is a rather simple idea."

Another thing comes into my mind besides trade disputes: speed. the factor that makes postal services around the world reliable, is the fact that postal administrations in member states should aim to deliver postal items in the most direct, safest and fastest route as possible.

Therefore, I would suggest for consideration in regards to Section 8:

8. CALLS UPON postal services within the IPU to:
a) Aim to deliver postal items in the most direct, safest and fastest route as possible;
b) monitor and update effective technical cooperation to meet the needs of postal customers.

Meanwhile, I understand it is hard to cater for all member states when it does come into such disputes which will inevitably pose problems for the freedom of transit: but now, the important task is to ensure that this draft is airtight.

---

Honoured ambassador, Maybe try this:

DEFINES, for the purpose of this Resolution:
• Freedom of transit, as the obligation for postal administrations to transport postal items passed on to them in transit by another postal administration within the IPU, without discriminating between domestic and international postal items, subject to the exceptions provided in section...

This is unnecessary, as the provision guaranteeing freedom of transit, part "4.)", contains the phrase "...except where specifically limited elsewhere in this legislation". The delegation from the Imperial Chiefdom was most assuredly not asleep at the switch that day; I remember clearly seeing that phrase inserted, and the staffer who wrote that section has been recommended for promotion. I would still like to see the phrasing on "trade dispute" versus "trade embargo" modified, but that is a minor issue, and one I will hesitate to press further.

[Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

Everything is possible, [Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok. No need to give up about the trade dispute issue as I am still yet to be satisfied that the definition is fully airtight. In light of your suggestions, I will therefore recommend the honoured ambassador to Grays Harbor to adjust section 1 for now to read:

1. DEFINES, for the purpose of this Resolution:
• Freedom of transit, as the obligation for postal administrations to transport postal items passed on to them in transit by another postal administration within the IPU, without discriminating between domestic and international postal items;
• Hostilities, to include war, territorial and/or trade disputes, or refusal to recognize a nation's current government;
• Hazardous materials, as any chemical or biological agent that could cause illness, injury, or death in a postal worker during routine transit;

I will also recommend, to make up for the edits to section 1, adjusting section 5 to read:

4. GUARANTEES the freedom of transit for all postal items throughout all WA member states, subject to the exceptions provided in section 5;

Submitted for review,

[Krioval]

OOC: Can proposals have bullet lists in them? I always thought that the formatting wouldn't work properly.

[Grays Harbor]

OOC: Can proposals have bullet lists in them? I always thought that the formatting wouldn't work properly.

We were considering artillery shells, or perhaps landmines but ......

oh, wait, thats not what you meant, is it.