DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

[Deschenek]

In observance of recent events Deschenek retracts support of said bill

[Far-Tortuga]

As the chosen representatives of the Most Serene Space Hulk Republic of Far-Tortuga, we must object to this proposal full-heartedily. We support all the counter-statements made by the honored Rutianan, and wish to add one more:

As implied by our official title, Far-Tortuga is located in a space hulk. We do not inhabit a planet or even a moon, but a large amalgamation of both natural and artificial debris. We have no "inhabited celestial bodies surface," for all our habitation is within Far-Tortuga itself. Think of us as a gigantic space station, if you will. As such, we have no atmosphere other than the air pumping through our corridors; no 10,000 arbitrarily defined kilometers of aerospace, no aerospace at all even. The sovreignty of Far-Tortuga is supported by the weapons of the space hulk itself and all those who call it home. Under the current proposal we believe that we will be foreced to disarm ourselves, leaving us open to exploitation and attack by our more miltiaristic neighbors.

We ask the World Assembly to remember strike down this resolution, a resolution that would doom so many off-World members to annihilation.

[Skeelzania]

The Skeelzanian Sternreich looks forward to its up-coming effortless annexation of the rebellious space hulk Far-Tortuga. We applaud the nation of Gaytonia for putting forth a resolution that will, at long last, ensure peace in Our Space.

-WA Observer van Golz, Skeelzanian Diplomatic Corps.

[Rutianas]

The Skeelzanian Sternreich looks forward to its up-coming effortless annexation of the rebellious space hulk Far-Tortuga. We applaud the nation of Gaytonia for putting forth a resolution that will, at long last, ensure peace in Our Space.

-WA Observer van Golz, Skeelzanian Diplomatic Corps.

And the Imperial Republic of Rutianas would be more than happy to stand by Far-Tortuga in defense of such an attempt at annexation. Such a resolution as this is too far reaching and will destroy any space based nation. If the WA truly wishes to alienate and anger all of it's spaced based nations, then this is the way to do it. It won't be the World Assembly anymore. It will be the World Assembly who will determine it's membership based on technological level. Passing something as this will create a dangerous precedent as no nation will no longer be safe. If the World Assembly can designate where the borders are for space based nations, then certainly it will take a dangerous turn and begin to dictate other far more ridiculous things.

As stated before, telling a space based nation where their borders are is akin to telling a nation confined within a planet only that the land surrounding their capital city is free land and they cannot attack anyone on such land. It's drawing their borders for them.

Paula Jenner, Rutianas Ambassador

[Skeelzania]

Well, it is called the World Assembly. Perhaps you and the Tortugans can go build your own treehouse with a more encompassing title? Perhaps a Unified Nations League that does not restrict itself to one terrestrial body. We believe you are partially correct in your assessment of these resolutions being quite damaging to many Assembly members. As the representative of an independent state, I suspect that we will fare rather better.

We've been observing this raucous pit of groundlings for some weeks now, and things definitely seem to be moving in that direction. In between the poorly-construed populist shams are several resolutions, presumably put forth by the uninformed and dirt-bound, that would effectively strip space-faring WA members of their right to defend themselves, or to exploit the their territory as they see fit.

[Rutianas]

Well, it is called the World Assembly. Perhaps you and the Tortugans can go build your own treehouse with a more encompassing title? Perhaps a Unified Nations League that does not restrict itself to one terrestrial body. We believe you are partially correct in your assessment of these resolutions being quite damaging to many Assembly members. As the representative of an independent state, I suspect that we will fare rather better.

We've been observing this raucous pit of groundlings for some weeks now, and things definitely seem to be moving in that direction. In between the poorly-construed populist shams are several resolutions, presumably put forth by the uninformed and dirt-bound, that would effectively strip space-faring WA members of their right to defend themselves, or to exploit the their territory as they see fit.

Well, it is the World Assembly. Not the Earth Assembly. Or One Planet Assembly. World in this case does encompass all worlds, though perhaps Universal Assembly would have been much better. So, unless this is renamed something that makes it clear that space faring nations are not welcomed, we plan on staying and fighting all legislation that would limit us, like this one.

Paula Jenner, Rutianas Ambassador

OOC: I highly doubt that when they renamed it from the -cough-United Nations-cough-, they considered the fact that there were space faring nations in the organization.

[The Eternal Swarm]

"The Swarm stands by the Skeelzanians in anticipation of the passing of this bill. We bow to no master besides Chaos, and its looking like a wise decision on our part. Just imagine all the ripe juicy worlds that will be available for consuming after this passes. No one can stop us, unless some non-member feels heroic.

-Cthulhu, abomination, Eldritch Horror from beyond the stars, representative of The Eternal Swarm."

* The above message translated from Cthulhu's native language, which when heard surely would've driven the entire WA insane. Who, or what, translated it is unknown.

[Deschenek]

In a metaphysical context, World refers to the Universe, everything that constitutes reality

I just finished the argument regarding Far-Tortuga. it is over!

[Saint Mimic]

Official press release about this draft:

We have little intelligence about the aforementioned concepts of space and celestial bodies. Skywards affairs are the sole concern of Our Lord: Saint Mimic Above Mortals.
It would be wise to leave the sky alone, therefore we shall endorse this Act should it be brought to the general attention of the WA.

Father Mould,
Ministry of the Xchequer

[Gaytania]

World Assembly,

RECOGNIZING the rapid advancements of technology in the aerospace industry and the increasing exploration of space by WA member nations

NOTING the need for securing the space exploration efforts of WA member nations

DECLARING that extraplanetary military conflicts inhibit the further exploration of the solar system, our galaxy, and the universe

HEREBY:

1)DECLARES that the aerospace that is a distance, measured in each nations appropriate units, to be highly comparable to that of 100,000 AU beyond an member nations sentiently inhabited celestial bodies surface is a trade neutral zone and is not subject to any nation's, regions, or international entity's trade restrictions
(a) RESERVES the right for nations to expand their territorial borders to beyond a distance equivalent to 100,000 AU up to a distance equivalent to 1,000,000 AU as an "Exclusive Economic Zone", within which gives a nation the exclusive right to harvest natural resources, but otherwise this zone will be considered Neutral Space;
(b) This includes all uninhabited celestial bodies within this zone


2)ESTABLISHES the World Assembly Space Council which will function to monitor the safety and security of member nations space programs
(a)Hereby charges the newly established World Assembly Space Council with serving as mediator to review evidence of all border disputes and hostilities to establish an aggressor, where-upon the World Assembly Space Council will mediate an agreement between the member nations clearly defining the borders between them
(b) This agreement will be subject to the final terms defined by the oppressed nations leaders and will need the approval of the World Assembly Space Council


3) EMPHASIZING the right of WA member nations to claim, govern, and defend territory on uninhabited celestial bodies through said nations previously established processes used to annex and claim uninhabited territory on celestial bodies

4) REASSERTS the right of space faring WA member nations to protect their nations trade and merchant vessels from military or criminal attack

5) ALLOWS nations to conduct non-offensive experiments toward the advancement of any legal technology provided, with World Assembly Space Council's oversight, that the experiment will be safe to all neighboring civilizations and have no lasting effects on the local space

6) FURTHER NOTING that the trade and military restrictions contained within this legislation do not apply to a member nations interactions with non-member nations

In response to the criticism I have received regarding the previous drafts of this proposal. I have decided to seriously revise and re-edit my previous draft. I would appreciate your response.

[Serbian_Soviet_Union]

Gaytania, no matter what you do and how much you revise the proposal, it's still going to get rejected, the people have already spoken and nobody wishes to have a space base resolution, it's time to let this die and rest in peace and move on.

[The Emmerian Unions]

Gaytania, no matter what you do and how much you revise the proposal, it's still going to get rejected, the people have already spoken and nobody wishes to have a space base resolution, it's time to let this die and rest in peace and move on.

<<OOC: QFT.>>

[Deschenek]

Gaytania, no matter what you do and how much you revise the proposal, it's still going to get rejected, the people have already spoken and nobody wishes to have a space base resolution, it's time to let this die and rest in peace and move on.

He`s right this has been going on for weeks on end and everybody still hates it and isn`t there some kind of time limit for a draft to become a proposal or something?

[Flibbleites]

Gaytania, no matter what you do and how much you revise the proposal, it's still going to get rejected, the people have already spoken and nobody wishes to have a space base resolution, it's time to let this die and rest in peace and move on.

He`s right this has been going on for weeks on end and everybody still hates it and isn`t there some kind of time limit for a draft to become a proposal or something?

No you can draft a proposal for as long as you want, in fact, it's my opinion that the longer a proposal is drafted for, the better it tends to be.

Bob Flibble
WA Representative

[Absolvability]

I took a little break from this. I can see it's pretty much the same as when I left... changes are being made, and people still don't really care.

I don't think this proposal needs to be scrapped. Though space-faring nations seem to think that they don't require any laws to govern them in the aspects of their culture that define them as space-faring, I think that some form of borders needs to be defined by international law as has been defined in virtually ever other medium for travel.

I think a wise move would be to declare in the proposal that "every pre-existing boundary not presently contested be made official," and move on from there. This proposal need only be a guideline for future acquiring of space/celestial bodies, so that one nation is not taking advantage of another. I find this to be necessary, and think that if the proposal would confine itself to such matters it would be recieved with more pleasure.

As far as the military restrictions go... I find them to be equally necessary. Staging attacks in space is no more moral than it is on land or in water. However, the author might be wise to not outlaw any defensive actions, and only seek to regulate offensive actions in presently unclaimed territories.

[Rutianas]

I took a little break from this. I can see it's pretty much the same as when I left... changes are being made, and people still don't really care.

I don't think this proposal needs to be scrapped. Though space-faring nations seem to think that they don't require any laws to govern them in the aspects of their culture that define them as space-faring, I think that some form of borders needs to be defined by international law as has been defined in virtually ever other medium for travel.

I think a wise move would be to declare in the proposal that "every pre-existing boundary not presently contested be made official," and move on from there. This proposal need only be a guideline for future acquiring of space/celestial bodies, so that one nation is not taking advantage of another. I find this to be necessary, and think that if the proposal would confine itself to such matters it would be recieved with more pleasure.

As far as the military restrictions go... I find them to be equally necessary. Staging attacks in space is no more moral than it is on land or in water. However, the author might be wise to not outlaw any defensive actions, and only seek to regulate offensive actions in presently unclaimed territories.

Well, this ten thousand mile rule is what has space faring nations upset. Sure, having a clause that says pre-existing boundaries are official (non-contested), but where does that leave you when you achieve interstellar travel? With what relates to a shoebox of space while older space faring nations potentially have tens of thousands of AUs to wander around. How is that going to solve any problems?

Were the author wise, he would just attempt to write legislation on one of these issues and leave boundaries out of it. Sure, regulate offensive actions in unclaimed territories, but don't tell us what's unclaimed when we've had our flag on it for a thousand years already.

As to what this proposal is doing currently..... think of it this way, each planet we hold is a city. Now, transplant that on to a land based map. Say, twenty major cities and some minor outlying towns and villages. Now, take this proposal and turn it into a land based one. Instead of ten thousand miles, lets make that read just ten. So, with changed wording, it would make all land ten miles from the borders of a city into international and uncontestable land with no attacking it. Now, I could leave the WA, set up right outside your ten mile limit and bombard the hell out of your city, destroy all your defenses, make it impossible for you to attack me back, and laugh while doing it.

This, unfortunately, is what will be on the mind of any non-WA space faring nation who wants to kick the butt of any WA space faring nation. However, I find it hard to imagine that the Ambassador from Gaytania will finally understand what I and several other space faring nations are trying to say. It's been ignored in the past and I have the strong suspicion that we will continue to be ignored.

To Ambassador Flibble: The problem with this particular proposal is that very little is being changed. The author is clearly not listening to the complaints of those who will be significantly impacted. In fact, the same draft seems to make it to the proposals list over and over and over. If anything's different, I can't tell. It's still defining borders in space and screwing space faring nations while doing it. So, unless the WA wants to run off all it's space faring nations, this proposal needs to be dropped in it's current form and it needs to stop showing up in the proposals list.

Paula Jenner, Rutianas Ambassador

[Bears Armed]

OOC: Any nations that are the only ones within a given stellar system should be allowed to claim that entire system, plus space out to say 10% of its radius beyond that; and any nations that are the only ones within a given planetary system should be allowed to claim that entire system, likewise... It's only when a planet (and any moons that it has) are divided between two or more nations that tighter limits might need to be set...
And for those situations where a planet is divided between two or more nations, such as RL Earth, the limit set by this proposal is actually way too high... because if any of those nations actually possess 'Space' capabilities then it's likely that a significant proportion of any satellites they place in orbit would consequently have to cross national borders multiple times per orbit.
(Google the term 'Low Earth Orbit'...)

[Rutianas]

OOC: Any nations that are the only ones within a given stellar system should be allowed to claim that entire system, plus space out to say 10% of its radius beyond that; and any nations that are the only ones within a given planetary system should be allowed to claim that entire system, likewise... It's only when a planet (and any moons that it has) are divided between two or more nations that tighter limits might need to be set...
And for those situations where a planet is divided between two or more nations, such as RL Earth, the limit set by this proposal is actually way too high... because if any of those nations actually possess 'Space' capabilities then it's likely that a significant proportion of any satellites they place in orbit would consequently have to cross national borders multiple times per orbit.
(Google the term 'Low Earth Orbit'...)

OOC: Pretty good thinking. Now, what about those, like Rutianas, that have nine such 'solar systems' under their control. What about the space in between those solar systems? That's the problematic part. With Rutianas, it's never been ICly contested. That's why I don't think borders in space should be established by the WA. If I only had the systems, plus ten percent of the radius, that's still a lot of space that Rutianas would be required to 'give up' to international space status. This proposal is just trying too hard and failing. Regulate satellites. Regulate weapons platforms (regulate, don't ban). Those I can handle if written well.

[Arnoer]

OOC: Any nations that are the only ones within a given stellar system should be allowed to claim that entire system, plus space out to say 10% of its radius beyond that; and any nations that are the only ones within a given planetary system should be allowed to claim that entire system, likewise... It's only when a planet (and any moons that it has) are divided between two or more nations that tighter limits might need to be set...
And for those situations where a planet is divided between two or more nations, such as RL Earth, the limit set by this proposal is actually way too high... because if any of those nations actually possess 'Space' capabilities then it's likely that a significant proportion of any satellites they place in orbit would consequently have to cross national borders multiple times per orbit.
(Google the term 'Low Earth Orbit'...)

OOC: Pretty good thinking. Now, what about those, like Rutianas, that have nine such 'solar systems' under their control. What about the space in between those solar systems? That's the problematic part. With Rutianas, it's never been ICly contested. That's why I don't think borders in space should be established by the WA. If I only had the systems, plus ten percent of the radius, that's still a lot of space that Rutianas would be required to 'give up' to international space status. This proposal is just trying too hard and failing. Regulate satellites. Regulate weapons platforms (regulate, don't ban). Those I can handle if written well.

And what about Worlds that already have a dominate race on, we can't take over those worlds, it could be catastrophic.

[Absolvability]

Sure, having a clause that says pre-existing boundaries are official (non-contested), but where does that leave you when you achieve interstellar travel? With what relates to a shoebox of space while older space faring nations potentially have tens of thousands of AUs to wander around. How is that going to solve any problems?

I'd consider such an instance to be a contested matter. Which would require perhaps an established committee to mediate.

Were the author wise, he would just attempt to write legislation on one of these issues and leave boundaries out of it. Sure, regulate offensive actions in unclaimed territories, but don't tell us what's unclaimed when we've had our flag on it for a thousand years already.

This is the reason for the above.

Now, I could leave the WA, set up right outside your ten mile limit and bombard the hell out of your city, destroy all your defenses, make it impossible for you to attack me back, and laugh while doing it.

Seriously, Ambassador, I can appreciate your idea that any attack is offensive in nature, but can't you wrap your mind around the idea of 'defense'? If somebody is bombarding the hell out of a city, any retalliatory measures should be perfectly legal. I said that defensive measures shouldn't be restricted at all, and offensive measures should be confined to your own territory. Meaning... if you're in somebody else's territory and they attack you, while you have the right to defend yourself, you might be smarter just to get the hell out.

[Sorgan]

Why are you using metric? Not everyone uses metric. We, for example, use a hybrid system of metric and imperial.

OoC:They are using metric because most countries of the world use metric its only 3 that use conventional (I think) then some hybrids like America (Well we use liters and ozs too) but this isn't a math debate site.

[Bears Armed]

OOC: Any nations that are the only ones within a given stellar system should be allowed to claim that entire system, plus space out to say 10% of its radius beyond that; and any nations that are the only ones within a given planetary system should be allowed to claim that entire system, likewise... It's only when a planet (and any moons that it has) are divided between two or more nations that tighter limits might need to be set...
And for those situations where a planet is divided between two or more nations, such as RL Earth, the limit set by this proposal is actually way too high... because if any of those nations actually possess 'Space' capabilities then it's likely that a significant proportion of any satellites they place in orbit would consequently have to cross national borders multiple times per orbit.
(Google the term 'Low Earth Orbit'...)

OOC: Pretty good thinking. Now, what about those, like Rutianas, that have nine such 'solar systems' under their control. What about the space in between those solar systems? That's the problematic part. With Rutianas, it's never been ICly contested. That's why I don't think borders in space should be established by the WA. If I only had the systems, plus ten percent of the radius, that's still a lot of space that Rutianas would be required to 'give up' to international space status. This proposal is just trying too hard and failing. Regulate satellites. Regulate weapons platforms (regulate, don't ban). Those I can handle if written well.

OOC: How effectively can you control that space, anyway? I can see that you don't want anybody else establishing bases there, but considering the sheer volume involved isn't it likely that any bases that might get established covertly would escape your notice in any case unless & until attacks were launched from them?
(I don't know what sort of FTL system your nation uses, of course: As you're taIking about control of interstellar space it presumably doesn't rely on 'jump-points' or 'wormholes', but even if it's 'hyperspace'-based I seriously doubt the practicality of trying to patrol whole cubic parsecs of the void... So, what do you have? A Star Trek-type 'Warp Drive'? A Lensman-type 'inertialess' drive? Something else?)

Why are you using metric? Not everyone uses metric. We, for example, use a hybrid system of metric and imperial.

OoC:They are using metric because most countries of the world use metric its only 3 that use conventional (I think) then some hybrids like America (Well we use liters and ozs too) but this isn't a math debate site.

OOC: most countries of which "world"?

[Rutianas]

[quote="Bears Armed"]
OOC: How effectively can you control that space, anyway? I can see that you don't want anybody else establishing bases there, but considering the sheer volume involved isn't it likely that any bases that might get established covertly would escape your notice in any case unless & until attacks were launched from them?
(I don't know what sort of FTL system your nation uses, of course: As you're taIking about control of interstellar space it presumably doesn't rely on 'jump-points' or 'wormholes', but even if it's 'hyperspace'-based I seriously doubt the practicality of trying to patrol whole cubic parsecs of the void... So, what do you have? A Star Trek-type 'Warp Drive'? A Lensman-type 'inertialess' drive? Something else?)

OOC: Good point. Think 'Dune'. We fold space and know what's in our path. If someone had set up a base, we'd know about it if it crossed or came close to crossing a path. Yeah, someone could come in and set up a base. We'd eventually know it was there and scope it out. Provided it wasn't a military based, we may not even care.

[Serbian_Soviet_Union]

Gaytania, no matter what you do and how much you revise the proposal, it's still going to get rejected, the people have already spoken and nobody wishes to have a space base resolution, it's time to let this die and rest in peace and move on.

He`s right this has been going on for weeks on end and everybody still hates it and isn`t there some kind of time limit for a draft to become a proposal or something?

No you can draft a proposal for as long as you want, in fact, it's my opinion that the longer a proposal is drafted for, the better it tends to be.

Bob Flibble
WA Representative

If your a future tech nation and want to give uo 10,000km of your space area away cause of some proposal, go right ahead, but no nation is silly enough to give up it's own space area or land. The people have spoken, it's time to put this proposal to an end.

[SilentScope4]

Since the FT nations are out of the woodwork, how would you deal with people claiming the exact same territory, such as the "Sol" Solar System? For instance, the region "Solar System" is a member of the Eastern Roman Empire, suggesting that the Solar System is closed, but I frequent an IRC chatroom where a coalition of FT nations discuss about their current wars and RPs over Mars.

Predictably, I would assume that multiple claims over the same territory would create seperate fractal universes where each claim is valid, but I just want to make sure.

EDIT: Further, while I could see FT nations being opposed, MT and PMT nations would likely be in favor of this resolution. The 'people' are likely to support taking away your land and giving it to, well, them.