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DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

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Rutianas
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Rutianas » Fri Jun 05, 2009 1:17 pm

Absolvability wrote:
Rutianas wrote:Oh, that clause is really going to help against piracy and raiders who don't belong to the WA. Pirates and raiders don't give a damned about borders. At least not the ones that don't belong to the WA. They're going to intimidate and encroach all they want to.

I mean to say that it should be added to an existing clause... something like this...

"2)DECLARING that WA nations may use defensive measures in the event of an military aerospace attack by a foreign or domestic entity occurring at a distance, measured in each nations appropriate units to be comparable to that of 1,000km beyond a member nations planetary surface... furthermore, that "intimidating or otherwise encroaching upon another nation's pre-established practices," hereby constitutes an attack."

I don't think it was ever an intention of the author to take away one's right to defend themselves AND their way of life. Way of life, in this instance, pointing at trade and safety.


If this passes, it still makes it so that area that was once the sovereign national boundaries of a space faring civilization is now required to be neutral area, which is free game for all traders and nations to trespass on without fear of attack, provided that they do not fire the first shot.

How would you feel if the situation were reversed and your nation was told that all land beyond your capital city was to be considered neutral area and you had to allow all traffic that was non-hostile? That is essentially what this amounts to for those of us who reside in space!

Paula Jenner, Rutianas Ambassador

(OOC: Bears Armed is right. If there's any global disarmament, it will go against WAR #20.)

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An572
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby An572 » Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:36 pm

Rutianas wrote:
Absolvability wrote:Yes you can. The very definition of 'defend' is pretty much to say that you get shot at first. You don't shoot them... they don't shoot you... and if somebody messes up, then it's ass kick time. We're not imagining a perfect scenario here, Ambassador, we're just making laws.

That being said... I think a clause should be included in here prohibitting nations from "intimidating or otherwise encroaching upon another nation's pre-established practices," or something like that. Protecting against pirates messing with merchant vessels, and such.


Oh, that clause is really going to help against piracy and raiders who don't belong to the WA. Pirates and raiders don't give a damned about borders. At least not the ones that don't belong to the WA. They're going to intimidate and encroach all they want to. And according to this, we have to let them! The one question that's remained unanswered is WHY? Why should we allow them entry and not be able to blast them out of space when we spot them? Why should we allow them to cripple or destroy our ships because they would be allowed to get in the first shot?

This is opening the door for multiple trade losses because of this. We cannot adequately protect our trade ships with this proposal. All WA space based civilizations would be an instant target for non-WA raiders and pirates.

Also, the WA should not get in the habit of defining another nation's borders. I hear people screaming NatSov violations over small things, but this is truly a NatSov violation.

Paula Jenner, Rutianas Ambassador

(OOC: For Gaytania: I'm also of the mind that it's a category violation. There is no category for this. It's global disarmament and trade. Write the proposal to fit the category. As it is, this doesn't fit a single category.)
He is right this can not be ALOUD!! this is madness. >:(

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Gaytania
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Gaytania » Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:43 pm

World Assembly,

RECOGNIZING the rapid advancements of technology in the aerospace industry and the increasing exploration of space by WA member nations

OBSERVING the need for securing the space exploration efforts of WA member nations

DECLARING that extraplanetary military conflicts inhibit the further exploration of the solar system, our galaxy, and the universe

HEREBY:

1)DECLARES that the aerospace that is a distance, measured in each nations appropriate units, to be highly comparable to that of 1,000km beyond an member nations sentiently inhabited celestial bodies surface is a military and trade neutral zone and is not subject to any nation's, regions, or international entity's trade restrictions

2)DECLARING that WA nations may use defensive measures in the event of an military aerospace attack by a foreign or domestic entity occurring at a distance, measured in each nations appropriate units to be comparable to that of 1,000km beyond a member nations sentiently inhabited celestial bodies surface ,and that furthermore, intimidating or otherwise encroaching upon another nation's pre-established practices, hereby constitutes an attack

3)ESTABLISHES the World Assembly Space Council which will function to monitor the safety and security of member nations space programs

4) EMPHASIZING the right of WA member nations to claim, govern, and defend territory on uninhabited celestial bodies through the traditional international processes used to declare such claims on a member nations sentiently inhabited celestial territory

5) REASSERTS the right of WA member nations to protect their nations trade and merchant vessels from military or criminal attack

I would appreciate your comments on the 3rd draft of my proposal, I hope it addresses some of your concerns regarding my previous draft.

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Rutianas
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Rutianas » Sat Jun 06, 2009 8:51 pm

Gaytania wrote:1)DECLARES that the aerospace that is a distance, measured in each nations appropriate units, to be highly comparable to that of 1,000km beyond an member nations sentiently inhabited celestial bodies surface is a military and trade neutral zone and is not subject to any nation's, regions, or international entity's trade restrictions



No. No. No.

This is still encroaching on our right to determine our own sovereign borders!

I still say this is equal to me writing a proposal telling you that all land in your nation, except where your capital city lies, is now neutral space and not subject to your military or trade laws or restrictions.

This cannot be allowed.

Paula Jenner, Rutianas Ambassador

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Absolvability
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Absolvability » Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:32 pm

Rutianas wrote:This is still encroaching on our right to determine our own sovereign borders!

Uhm... yes and no. The author is doing their very best to say, I do believe, that any existing borders not presently being contested are hereby made official. This resolution, it seems, is dealing with expansion. So that a nation may not encroach upon another nation's sovereign borders. Just like the international waters resolution. I should think this would be very beneficial to all. I beseech the Ambassador of Rutianas to try to help the author work through the problems with wording, rather than request the disposal of a quickly improving piece of legislation.
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Rutianas
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Rutianas » Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:45 pm

Absolvability wrote:
Rutianas wrote:This is still encroaching on our right to determine our own sovereign borders!

Uhm... yes and no. The author is doing their very best to say, I do believe, that any existing borders not presently being contested are hereby made official. This resolution, it seems, is dealing with expansion. So that a nation may not encroach upon another nation's sovereign borders. Just like the international waters resolution. I should think this would be very beneficial to all. I beseech the Ambassador of Rutianas to try to help the author work through the problems with wording, rather than request the disposal of a quickly improving piece of legislation.


There is no wording that will work here. The problem is that with space faring civilizations, borders can be very hard to define. There's no 'one size fits all'. As long as there's a number in there, I cannot support this.

As far as the international waters resolution goes, either you have water or you don't. And if you do have water, but don't have any other nations, then it doesn't apply to you. This will affect everyone. This isn't as simple as declaring International Waters. This is trying to declare almost all space as neutral territory.

The main problem I see here is that there is no category that this can fit in to.

Paula Jenner, Rutianas Ambassador

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Serbian_Soviet_Union
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Serbian_Soviet_Union » Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:52 pm

Rutianas wrote:
Absolvability wrote:
Rutianas wrote:This is still encroaching on our right to determine our own sovereign borders!

Uhm... yes and no. The author is doing their very best to say, I do believe, that any existing borders not presently being contested are hereby made official. This resolution, it seems, is dealing with expansion. So that a nation may not encroach upon another nation's sovereign borders. Just like the international waters resolution. I should think this would be very beneficial to all. I beseech the Ambassador of Rutianas to try to help the author work through the problems with wording, rather than request the disposal of a quickly improving piece of legislation.


There is no wording that will work here. The problem is that with space faring civilizations, borders can be very hard to define. There's no 'one size fits all'. As long as there's a number in there, I cannot support this.

As far as the international waters resolution goes, either you have water or you don't. And if you do have water, but don't have any other nations, then it doesn't apply to you. This will affect everyone. This isn't as simple as declaring International Waters. This is trying to declare almost all space as neutral territory.

The main problem I see here is that there is no category that this can fit in to.

Paula Jenner, Rutianas Ambassador



Notice the category as "Global Disarment" this is just another attempt in banning space based weapons, sattelites, orbital weapons, creating a jurisdiction that goes far beyond the WA's jurisdiction, i will continue to lobby against this and debate against this proposal. There has been far too many space based resolutions and all of them as of now have failed and have been voted out.

This would also cause alot of conflicts and disputes with other space based nations who are not members of the resolution and this proposal is also trying to force non members of WA to comply with this resolution and when an millitary object, a millitary space ship enters the neutral area of space and it is not a member of WA and this nation decides to stage a millitary exercise or test weapons or launch sattelites into that area, will members of the WA act upon this and attack non member states for passing through there or launching sattelites, staging exercises or testing out space weapons?? This would in the short run and in the long run create future wars in space, this wouldn't lead to a world war in the long run but to a universal war in the not too far distant future or beyond that when more and more nations advance to a far more advance technology and advancing to future tech???....
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Rutianas
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Rutianas » Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:03 pm

Serbian_Soviet_Union wrote:
Notice the category as "Global Disarment" this is just another attempt in banning space based weapons, sattelites, orbital weapons, creating a jurisdiction that goes far beyond the WA's jurisdiction, i will continue to lobby against this and debate against this proposal. There has been far too many space based resolutions and all of them as of now have failed and have been voted out.


I could deal with have no weapons on satellites. I could deal with being limited on how many orbital weapons platforms I can have. I could deal with all that. This isn't just about global disarmament though. It's got trade thrown in there too. So, there's no category to fit this.

What I cannot deal with is the fact that this will destroy the sovereign borders of all space faring civilizations in the WA.

Paula Jenner, Rutianas Ambassador

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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Serbian_Soviet_Union » Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:12 pm

Rutianas wrote:
Serbian_Soviet_Union wrote:
Notice the category as "Global Disarment" this is just another attempt in banning space based weapons, sattelites, orbital weapons, creating a jurisdiction that goes far beyond the WA's jurisdiction, i will continue to lobby against this and debate against this proposal. There has been far too many space based resolutions and all of them as of now have failed and have been voted out.


I could deal with have no weapons on satellites. I could deal with being limited on how many orbital weapons platforms I can have. I could deal with all that. This isn't just about global disarmament though. It's got trade thrown in there too. So, there's no category to fit this.

What I cannot deal with is the fact that this will destroy the sovereign borders of all space faring civilizations in the WA.

Paula Jenner, Rutianas Ambassador



Having far too little laws is bad and will cause alot of disputes and conflicts but having far too much of them and going overboard and far too extreme about it will also cause alot od disputes and conflicts aswell. The best solution is to put all space proposals to a rest unless space proposals are created for research purposes and nothing else.
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Rutianas
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Rutianas » Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:20 pm

Serbian_Soviet_Union wrote:Having far too little laws is bad and will cause alot of disputes and conflicts but having far too much of them and going overboard and far too extreme about it will also cause alot od disputes and conflicts aswell. The best solution is to put all space proposals to a rest unless space proposals are created for research purposes and nothing else.


I could agree with that. I really could. In fact, I think I do.

This is a far extremist view on it. I mean, really. Telling those of us that have multiple systems that we can't even draw a circle around those systems and say 'Our Space, knock before entering' is really ridiculous.

Paula Jenner, Rutianas Ambassador

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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Serbian_Soviet_Union » Sat Jun 06, 2009 10:57 pm

Rutianas wrote:
Serbian_Soviet_Union wrote:Having far too little laws is bad and will cause alot of disputes and conflicts but having far too much of them and going overboard and far too extreme about it will also cause alot od disputes and conflicts aswell. The best solution is to put all space proposals to a rest unless space proposals are created for research purposes and nothing else.


I could agree with that. I really could. In fact, I think I do.

This is a far extremist view on it. I mean, really. Telling those of us that have multiple systems that we can't even draw a circle around those systems and say 'Our Space, knock before entering' is really ridiculous.

Paula Jenner, Rutianas Ambassador


Agreed. Also if some space based nations owe that part of territory in space which the proposal proposes that this area becomes a neutral zone is ridiciolous because when you think about it, it's forcing a nation to give up land or area so it could be transformed into a neutral zone, yet also removing all borders.
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Rutianas
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Rutianas » Sat Jun 06, 2009 11:02 pm

Serbian_Soviet_Union wrote:
Rutianas wrote:
Serbian_Soviet_Union wrote:Having far too little laws is bad and will cause alot of disputes and conflicts but having far too much of them and going overboard and far too extreme about it will also cause alot od disputes and conflicts aswell. The best solution is to put all space proposals to a rest unless space proposals are created for research purposes and nothing else.


I could agree with that. I really could. In fact, I think I do.

This is a far extremist view on it. I mean, really. Telling those of us that have multiple systems that we can't even draw a circle around those systems and say 'Our Space, knock before entering' is really ridiculous.

Paula Jenner, Rutianas Ambassador


Agreed. Also if some space based nations owe that part of territory in space which the proposal proposes that this area becomes a neutral zone is ridiciolous because when you think about it, it's forcing a nation to give up land or area so it could be transformed into a neutral zone, yet also removing all borders.


Exactly. This kind of thing should not be legislated upon by the WA. Period.

Paula Jenner, Rutianas Ambassador

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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Bears Armed » Sun Jun 07, 2009 7:36 am

OOC: Another problem _ some of the star-faring nations in the WA might use methods of FTL travel that (like those in some RL works of SF) involve "jumps" between specific points in the stellar systems concerned, and would then presumably -- and quite reasonably -- wish to place defences in the space around those points ... but those points are likely to be further from the systems' planets than the boundaries which this proposal would establish.
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Absolvability
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Absolvability » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:15 am

Well... I don't have a lot vested in this proposal. We in the Rogue Nation don't venture off into deep-space very often. I understand all of the problems raised... but the biggest problem I see isn't in the proposal itself.

Rutianas wrote:There is no wording that will work here.

How could that ever be true? It's not. Thing is... honestly... I'm tired of being the only one trying to be constructive when, frankly, I don't give a damn. And then seeing my words within the proposal without even the courtesy of having been slightly re-arranged.

Maybe I'll start my own draft of something like this... maybe. In the future.
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Rutianas
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Rutianas » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:26 am

Absolvability wrote:Well... I don't have a lot vested in this proposal. We in the Rogue Nation don't venture off into deep-space very often. I understand all of the problems raised... but the biggest problem I see isn't in the proposal itself.

Rutianas wrote:There is no wording that will work here.

How could that ever be true? It's not. Thing is... honestly... I'm tired of being the only one trying to be constructive when, frankly, I don't give a damn. And then seeing my words within the proposal without even the courtesy of having been slightly re-arranged.

Maybe I'll start my own draft of something like this... maybe. In the future.


And we would, naturally, be opposed to it.

Anything that tells a nation where their borders may or may not lie is an outright violation of national sovereignty. Not to mention that it's completely ridiculous.

Paula Jenner, Rutianas Ambassador

OOC: I'm honestly tired of all the 'peace in space' resolutions that ignore the fact that FT nations exist. I'm going to flat out ignore them from now on. That includes this one.

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Re: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Charlotte Ryberg » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:45 am

Unfortunately the honoured delegate to Charlotte Ryberg cannot support a ban on space weapons. The neutrality of a nation is fine (WA #14), but when you are talking about space neutrality we run into serious problems which may involve territorial conflicts, involving nations in a ship and the similar stuff.

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Absolvability
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Absolvability » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:25 am

Rutianas wrote:And we would, naturally, be opposed to it.

That's what I mean. How closed-minded can you be, Ambassador? Before you start to plug your nose to avoid your own stench? You're opposed to a hypothetical resolution that you've never laid eyes on. Ha. I think I'm going to start drafting something now just out of spite.

You should not assume that my draft would mirror this one. In fact I think the author touches on things they really need not touch on in order to establish and protect a nation's borders. However, I think, if Ambassadors would open their minds and try to lend a helping hand from time to time... the author is capable of making necessary and satisfactory revisions.

Rutianas wrote:OOC: I'm honestly tired of all the 'peace in space' resolutions that ignore the fact that FT nations exist. I'm going to flat out ignore them from now on. That includes this one.

OOC: What the hell? I'm pretty sure that any resolution that mentions space is acknowledging the existance of FT nations. Duh? We talk about peace on Earth, so to speak, so we now also talk about peace in space.

Charlotte Ryberg wrote:Unfortunately the honoured delegate to Charlotte Ryberg cannot support a ban on space weapons.

I definately agree.

Charlotte Ryberg wrote:but when you are talking about space neutrality we run into serious problems which may involve territorial conflicts, involving nations in a ship and the similar stuff.

The problems you describe are exactly what warrant the existance of such a resolution. We must resolve territorial conflicts. This is what such a proposal should be confined to. If the author of this particular proposal doesn't intend to do so... or isn't given adequate help to do so... then that is precisely what I will endeavor to do.
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Gaytania
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Gaytania » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:29 am

World Assembly,

RECOGNIZING the rapid advancements of technology in the aerospace industry and the increasing exploration of space by WA member nations

OBSERVING the need for securing the space exploration efforts of WA member nations

DECLARING that extraplanetary military conflicts inhibit the further exploration of the solar system, our galaxy, and the universe

HEREBY:

1)DECLARES that the aerospace that is a distance, measured in each nations appropriate units, to be highly comparable to that of 1,000km beyond an member nations sentiently inhabited celestial bodies surface is a military and trade neutral zone and is not subject to any nation's, regions, or international entity's trade restrictions

2)DECLARING that WA nations may use defensive measures in the event of an military aerospace attack by a foreign or domestic entity occurring at a distance, measured in each nations appropriate units to be comparable to that of 1,000km beyond a member nations sentiently inhabited celestial bodies surface ,and that furthermore, intimidating or otherwise encroaching upon another nation's pre-established practices, hereby constitutes an attack

3)ESTABLISHES the World Assembly Space Council which will function to monitor the safety and security of member nations space programs

4) EMPHASIZING the right of WA member nations to claim, govern, and defend territory on uninhabited celestial bodies through the traditional international processes used to declare such claims on a member nations sentiently inhabited celestial territory

5) REASSERTS the right of space faring WA member nations to protect their nations trade and merchant vessels from military or criminal attack

6)STRONGLY URGES that present and future space faring WA nations follow the military recommendations contained within this legislation

I hope some of you may appreciate this fourth draft of my proposal. I hope it may clear up some of the issues your nation may have had with my previous draft.

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Absolvability
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Absolvability » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:41 am

Gaytania wrote:1)DECLARES that the aerospace that is a distance, measured in each nations appropriate units, to be highly comparable to that of 1,000km beyond an member nations sentiently inhabited celestial bodies surface is a military and trade neutral zone and is not subject to any nation's, regions, or international entity's trade restrictions

I like that. I believe it would be unfair to say that because... for example, Nation A is a space-faring people and have explored the outer perimeter of Nation B's atmosphere before Nation B had sufficient technology to do so, then all of a sudden Nation A owns territorial rights to the space surrounding Nation B.

I think this clause protects against this very well. However, it appears to be showing preference to the under-developed. A space-faring nation that is implementing advanced technology will probably think that 1,000km is a very short distance indeed. We should broaden it significantly, I believe. Which will, no doubt, begin to cross jurisdictions between nearby planets. In which case a clause simply needs to be put in place to define the line (presumably right down the middle?) in such a scenario.

Gaytania wrote:2)DECLARING that WA nations may use defensive measures in the event of an military aerospace attack by a foreign or domestic entity occurring at a distance, measured in each nations appropriate units to be comparable to that of 1,000km beyond a member nations sentiently inhabited celestial bodies surface ,and that furthermore, intimidating or otherwise encroaching upon another nation's pre-established practices, hereby constitutes an attack

Considering what defensive means... I do not think there should be ANY restriction on the implementation of defensive measures. A vessel, or a nation, has every right to defend itself at any time in any place. You should perhaps confine offensive measures to this "1000km" bubble... or whatever new distance you decide upon.

OOC: I think this will address some of the Ambassadors' concerns... though they might very well be ignoring it from this point forward. Either way, I think they had some valid points, though they expressed them quite poorly. I had more to say... but my girlfriend just called, and I've been summoned. -snickers-
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Rutianas
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Rutianas » Sun Jun 07, 2009 12:39 pm

Gaytania wrote:1)DECLARES that the aerospace that is a distance, measured in each nations appropriate units, to be highly comparable to that of 1,000km beyond an member nations sentiently inhabited celestial bodies surface is a military and trade neutral zone and is not subject to any nation's, regions, or international entity's trade restrictions


OOC: This is why I'm ignoring this stuff. It's telling me what my borders can and can't be. Personally, I find this to be extremely annoying which is why I was fighting against it. If we can't be telling people how to play their nation, then why should we have the right to tell them where their borders are?

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Gaytania
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Gaytania » Sun Jun 07, 2009 1:55 pm

RECOGNIZING the rapid advancements of technology in the aerospace industry and the increasing exploration of space by WA member nations

NOTING the need for securing the space exploration efforts of WA member nations

DECLARING that extraplanetary military conflicts inhibit the further exploration of the solar system, our galaxy, and the universe

HEREBY:

1)DECLARES that the aerospace that is a distance, measured in each nations appropriate units, to be highly comparable to that of 1,000km beyond an member nations sentiently inhabited celestial bodies surface is a military and trade neutral zone and is not subject to any nation's, regions, or international entity's trade restrictions

2)DECLARING that WA nations may use defensive measures in the event of an military aerospace attack by a foreign or domestic entity occurring at a distance, measured in each nations appropriate units to be comparable to that of 1,000km beyond a member nations sentiently inhabited celestial bodies surface ,and that furthermore, intimidating or otherwise encroaching upon another nation's pre-established practices, hereby constitutes an attack

3)ESTABLISHES the World Assembly Space Council which will function to monitor the safety and security of member nations space programs

4) EMPHASIZING the right of WA member nations to claim, govern, and defend territory on uninhabited celestial bodies through the traditional international processes used to declare such claims on a member nations sentiently inhabited celestial territory

5) REASSERTS the right of space faring WA member nations to protect their nations trade and merchant vessels from military or criminal attack

6)CONFINES military offensive maneuvers to be within the pre-established area of 1,000km above a member nations sentiently inhabited celestial bodies surface or the unclaimed or uninhabited territory surrounding this region

7)STRONGLY URGES that present and future space faring WA nations observe the military restrictions contained within this legislation in their nation's future conflicts and disaggreements with their fellow member and non-member nations

I hope my fifth draft of this proposal will address some of the problems contained within my previous drafts. I would appreciate your comments and suggestions.

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Absolvability
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Founded: Apr 08, 2009
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Absolvability » Sun Jun 07, 2009 3:48 pm

Rutianas wrote:why should we have the right to tell them where their borders are?

OOC: Look... just as an example... you could RP a nation and say that 'in your world, no other nations exist.' In which case you would be RPing at your own risk, as it were. I don't think you're doing that though. I think you just fail to reconcile that fact that, even though space is vast, a nation still must have its borders defined. So that other nations might not encroach upon it... as well as so that you may not encroach upon another nation's borders. Just like real life. Ever look at a map? They have dividing lines. To say that this very same approach can't or shouldn't be applied to space is ridiculous.
Antonius Veloci
Ambassador of The Event Horizon of Absolvability

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Rutianas
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Founded: Aug 23, 2007
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Rutianas » Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:49 pm

Absolvability wrote:OOC: Look... just as an example... you could RP a nation and say that 'in your world, no other nations exist.' In which case you would be RPing at your own risk, as it were. I don't think you're doing that though. I think you just fail to reconcile that fact that, even though space is vast, a nation still must have its borders defined. So that other nations might not encroach upon it... as well as so that you may not encroach upon another nation's borders. Just like real life. Ever look at a map? They have dividing lines. To say that this very same approach can't or shouldn't be applied to space is ridiculous.


OOC: Yeah, a nation has it's borders. Dividing lines. Nations on land sometimes have problems with this. Space faring nations, however, may not have those issues. There are too many issues going on here. Telling space faring nations that they may only adequately protect the area around their planets is just plain ridiculous. It's drawing borders for them. If you want to draw lines, then do it in a way that space faring civilizations can still protect and defend the space they've been doing so for what may have been centuries. You're asking age old civilizations to change their ways in a radical extremist view.

The only thing that I see different is some call for space faring civilizations to observe the restrictions. That right there makes the whole thing illegal. If this thing ever were to pass, it would be required for space faring civilizations to follow it.

Number 6? Offensive maneuvers to be within that area? We can no longer defend our area! Even if we are attacked! We can't enter into any offensive maneuvers. Even in defense, we're still engaging in offensive maneuvers against the person we're defending against. This will destroy all FT nations.

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Gaytania
Secretary
 
Posts: 38
Founded: Mar 28, 2009
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Gaytania » Sun Jun 07, 2009 4:59 pm

Rutianas wrote:
Absolvability wrote:OOC: Look... just as an example... you could RP a nation and say that 'in your world, no other nations exist.' In which case you would be RPing at your own risk, as it were. I don't think you're doing that though. I think you just fail to reconcile that fact that, even though space is vast, a nation still must have its borders defined. So that other nations might not encroach upon it... as well as so that you may not encroach upon another nation's borders. Just like real life. Ever look at a map? They have dividing lines. To say that this very same approach can't or shouldn't be applied to space is ridiculous.


OOC: Yeah, a nation has it's borders. Dividing lines. Nations on land sometimes have problems with this. Space faring nations, however, may not have those issues. There are too many issues going on here. Telling space faring nations that they may only adequately protect the area around their planets is just plain ridiculous. It's drawing borders for them. If you want to draw lines, then do it in a way that space faring civilizations can still protect and defend the space they've been doing so for what may have been centuries. You're asking age old civilizations to change their ways in a radical extremist view.

The only thing that I see different is some call for space faring civilizations to observe the restrictions. That right there makes the whole thing illegal. If this thing ever were to pass, it would be required for space faring civilizations to follow it.

Number 6? Offensive maneuvers to be within that area? We can no longer defend our area! Even if we are attacked! We can't enter into any offensive maneuvers. Even in defense, we're still engaging in offensive maneuvers against the person we're defending against. This will destroy all FT nations.


World Assembly,

RECOGNIZING the rapid advancements of technology in the aerospace industry and the increasing exploration of space by WA member nations

NOTING the need for securing the space exploration efforts of WA member nations

DECLARING that extraplanetary military conflicts inhibit the further exploration of the solar system, our galaxy, and the universe

HEREBY:

1)DECLARES that the aerospace that is a distance, measured in each nations appropriate units, to be highly comparable to that of 1,000km beyond an member nations sentiently inhabited celestial bodies surface is a military and trade neutral zone and is not subject to any nation's, regions, or international entity's trade restrictions

2)DECLARING that WA nations may use defensive measures in the event of an military aerospace attack by a foreign or domestic entity occurring at a distance, measured in each nations appropriate units to be comparable to that of 1,000km beyond a member nations sentiently inhabited celestial bodies surface ,and that furthermore, intimidating or otherwise encroaching upon another nation's pre-established practices, hereby constitutes an attack

3)ESTABLISHES the World Assembly Space Council which will function to monitor the safety and security of member nations space programs

4) EMPHASIZING the right of WA member nations to claim, govern, and defend territory on uninhabited celestial bodies through the traditional international processes used to declare such claims on a member nations sentiently inhabited celestial territory

5) REASSERTS the right of space faring WA member nations to protect their nations trade and merchant vessels from military or criminal attack

6)CONFINES military offensive maneuvers to be within the pre-established area of 1,000km above a member nations sentiently inhabited celestial bodies surface or the area above unclaimed or uninhabited territory surrounding this region

7)STRONGLY URGES that present and future space faring WA nations observe the military restrictions contained within this legislation in their nation's future conflicts and disaggreements with their fellow member and non-member nation


Slight edit to the previous draft of my proposal. I hope the emphasis I have added helps to address some of your concerns regarding this legislation.

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Absolvability
Diplomat
 
Posts: 857
Founded: Apr 08, 2009
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Re: DRAFT: Space Neutrality Act

Postby Absolvability » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:20 pm

OOC: Rutianas... I understand your concerns. I think you're confusing what constitutes offensive and defensive measures however. Shooting first is offense. Shooting back is defense. Look at the newest draft. It's beginning to reflect such things. You shouldn't give up so easily.
Antonius Veloci
Ambassador of The Event Horizon of Absolvability

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