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[DRAFT] WA Doctrine of First Contact

Where WA members debate how to improve the world, one resolution at a time.

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Unibotian WASC Mission
Diplomat
 
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Founded: Oct 27, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Unibotian WASC Mission » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:16 pm

Kaesekartoffeln wrote:
Stash Kroh wrote:(e) Establishing any sort of dependency between the isolated society and a member nation, that prevents the isolated society from being self-sustainable;

Honored Ambassador, this clause severely restricts trade and the improvement of living standards for the isolated group, because "self-sustainable" and "dependency" are such broad terms. In the context of a modern lifestyle, which the WA should not prevent anyone from having, removing a vague "dependency" from a specific area is nearly impossible. If a nation discovers a society on a small island previously thought uninhabited, should the nation be required to build a pharmaceuticals plant there just so the inhabitants can enjoy modern medicine? Should the isolated society be barred from importing better and cheaper food? Should the people be deprived of other modern technology because it cannot be built or serviced in their remote location? This delegation thinks not. The offending clause should be removed.


This will be reworded, ambassador.

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Krioval
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Founded: Jan 24, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Krioval » Sun Nov 29, 2009 9:33 pm

Unibotian WASC Mission wrote:But ambassador, one does not just newly discover "isolated societies" in existing trade routes, obvious this either is a new trade route which you are trying to forge, by carelessly wiping out the society obstructing your path -- or the isolated society migrated to this area, in which case they are not by definition isolated, unless they continue to be unknowing of other civilizations existing among them (which could be easily taken care).


Or they migrated into the path of an existing trade route. In any case, if an "isolated society" is in the path of one of Krioval's trade routes, new or existing, we would like the opportunity to offer trade arrangements with that society, if we feel it will benefit both Krioval and the society in question. It's not as if a WA member can exploit an "isolated society" for slave labor, given the restrictions placed upon WA members by prior legislation. If anything, it is better for WA nations to integrate currently "isolated" societies into trade networks and for our militaries to protect them if threatened by less scrupulous nations not bound in the least by WA strictures.


Is violence necessary to solve all conflicts? Ambassador. By interrupting their cultural proceedings using violence, albeit unethical proceedings, you risk isolating them from your cause. Using violence means many of the society will instantly misinterpret your intentions. Your diplomacy will have failed.


Who said anything about violence, Excellency? Perhaps Krioval would wish to broker an agreement to take into the Imperial Chiefdom those individuals deemed "inferior". Perhaps we would attempt to discuss alternatives to, well, sacrificing babies. Not every action taken by Krioval to remedy a problem necessarily involves violence, and it is upsetting to hear that we Kriovallers are thought to automatically revert to such acts in the face of a challenge.


Again, if this isolated society was found to be living in the supposed territory of the WA nation, obviously this land belongs to the isolated society instead of the WA member nation which neglected to have even visited the area enough to acknowledge the existence of another society living there.


Not every territory is perfectly surveyed before it is settled by a nation. If Krioval colonizes an uninhabited planet at the same time as an "isolated society", are we obliged to let a non-WA nation invade that particular patch of land because our jurisdiction is circumscribed? If this society's land has different laws, are we to allow fugitives from Krioval, already lawbreakers, to hide away there, still within the borders of the Imperial Chiefdom? Should we stand aside while such areas are turned against the Imperial Chiefdom by malcontents working to destabilize our government while simultaneously suppressing or altering the culture of this "isolated society"? These are not minor issues, and they should not be dismissed so easily.

Also consider that the passage of this legislation would likely force the Imperial Chiefdom to deal more, rather than less, violently with "isolated societies" that nonetheless may prove a security risk for Krioval. Currently, we are able to deal with such problems by extending our borders politically - covering the "isolated" area - and slowly interacting with these societies. If this passes, we will be compelled to use non-WA actors to intervene, possibly through the use of force, to guarantee Krioval's stability.

[Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

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Stash Kroh
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Founded: Jun 25, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Stash Kroh » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:17 am

Who said anything about violence, Excellency? Perhaps Krioval would wish to broker an agreement to take into the Imperial Chiefdom those individuals deemed "inferior". Perhaps we would attempt to discuss alternatives to, well, sacrificing babies. Not every action taken by Krioval to remedy a problem necessarily involves violence, and it is upsetting to hear that we Kriovallers are thought to automatically revert to such acts in the face of a challenge.


So then what in this proposal is preventing you from interferring, if it is a non-violent interference? Ambassador.

Not every territory is perfectly surveyed before it is settled by a nation. If Krioval colonizes an uninhabited planet at the same time as an "isolated society", are we obliged to let a non-WA nation invade that particular patch of land because our jurisdiction is circumscribed?


And how do you suppose this isolated society colonized this land without travelling out of their homeland ?
Last edited by Stash Kroh on Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Ambassador Adelinda Gliemann
The Clockwork Forge of Stash Kroh
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Ilharessa
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Founded: Nov 16, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Ilharessa » Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:43 am

Stash Kroh wrote:And how do you suppose this isolated society colonized this land without travelling out of their homeland ?


"We colonized a series of islands on this world without being aware of the native species and went thousands of years without any sign humanity existed. The first radio transmission was a rather unpleasant shock," Velnayanis began. "Sometimes, they're native to the world and you just didn't see them beforehand. Other times, they've been spreading for quite some time with no contact with anyone else."

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Krioval
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Founded: Jan 24, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Krioval » Mon Nov 30, 2009 12:02 pm

Stash Kroh wrote:So then what in this proposal is preventing you from interferring, if it is a non-violent interference? Ambassador.


Currently, nothing. If this passes, the restrictions imposed on us would force intervention through potentially less diplomatic non-WA means.

And how do you suppose this isolated society colonized this land without travelling out of their homeland ?


It depends on how one is defining "homeland". Also, one could imagine a society traveling from their home and arriving elsewhere never aware of other intelligent beings "next door", so to speak. While the interplanetary scenario is vanishingly unlikely, it is far more likely that two societies could exist in proximity on a given landmass without ever being aware of the other.

The Imperial Chiefdom is also interested in hearing the justification for imperiling Krioval's national security by way of this proposal.

[Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

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Unibotian WASC Mission
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Founded: Oct 27, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Unibotian WASC Mission » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:44 pm

Not every territory is perfectly surveyed before it is settled by a nation. If Krioval colonizes an uninhabited planet at the same time as an "isolated society", are we obliged to let a non-WA nation invade that particular patch of land because our jurisdiction is circumscribed? If this society's land has different laws, are we to allow fugitives from Krioval, already lawbreakers, to hide away there, still within the borders of the Imperial Chiefdom? Should we stand aside while such areas are turned against the Imperial Chiefdom by malcontents working to destabilize our government while simultaneously suppressing or altering the culture of this "isolated society"? These are not minor issues, and they should not be dismissed so easily.


I apologize for my slowness, ambassador, but I'm confused at how you expect an isolated society will destabilize your government without leaving the boundaries of their homeland?

And if lawbreakers hide in the borders of the isolated society, you can obtain them yourselves, if the locals attempt to stop you from leaving with the lawbreaker, thats a violation of this legislation which suspends them from the criteria of an isolated society (as an isolated society must also give the WA member citizen the freedom to leave).

With your current comments, I might feel obliged to include an "URGES" clause for member nations to protect isolated societies from unwanted invasions by non-WA nations.

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Unibotian WASC Mission
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Founded: Oct 27, 2009
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Postby Unibotian WASC Mission » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:51 pm

..the restrictions imposed on us would force ...
\

What restrictions? Ambassador?

This proposal prevents you from harming an individual physically, risking a society of extinction, threatening them to convert and/or enslaving or kidnapping them. What kind of terrible operations are you running in these trade colonies of yours -- to feel that these aren't reasonable protective clauses !?

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Unibotian WASC Mission
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Founded: Oct 27, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Unibotian WASC Mission » Mon Nov 30, 2009 7:54 pm

Ilharessa wrote:
Stash Kroh wrote:And how do you suppose this isolated society colonized this land without travelling out of their homeland ?


"We colonized a series of islands on this world without being aware of the native species and went thousands of years without any sign humanity existed. The first radio transmission was a rather unpleasant shock," Velnayanis began. "Sometimes, they're native to the world and you just didn't see them beforehand. Other times, they've been spreading for quite some time with no contact with anyone else."


Well obviously, ambassador, they were not a huge occupier of important space, if you didn't notice them to till now, so to think that your nation deserves the land over them, the timely occupiers of the land, makes little sense.

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Ilharessa
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Founded: Nov 16, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Ilharessa » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:08 pm

Unibotian WASC Mission wrote:Well obviously, ambassador, they were not a huge occupier of important space, if you didn't notice them to till now, so to think that your nation deserves the land over them, the timely occupiers of the land, makes little sense.


"It's not so much that we deserve the land over them as we crash landed and couldn't leave. And, in the process, destroyed the natural biosphere of the land our nation currently occupates," Velnayanis said. "We also didn't notice humanity because humanity didn't have technology sufficient for us to detect their existance from our islands until the invention of the radio. Our technology is advanced, but not omnipotent."

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Krioval
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Founded: Jan 24, 2005
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Postby Krioval » Mon Nov 30, 2009 9:55 pm

Unibotian WASC Mission wrote:What restrictions? Ambassador?

This proposal prevents you from harming an individual physically, risking a society of extinction, threatening them to convert and/or enslaving or kidnapping them. What kind of terrible operations are you running in these trade colonies of yours -- to feel that these aren't reasonable protective clauses !?


Incorrect. The proposal reaches far, far beyond preventing extinction or enslavement. It says that Krioval cannot intervene to stop infant sacrifice because that would entail "converting inhabitants to a new religion or cultural belief system" if we so much as mentioned "penalties". We would not even be able to threaten "social isolation" - ironically enough - to stop infanticide; we would have to allow them the freedom to move about while not stepping on their delicate sensibilities.

We would not be able to create any "dependency" between the Imperial Chiefdom and an "isolated society" even if that dependence were mutual and in the pursuit of trade opportunities. Why would Krioval stand back and withhold medical technology that could extend lives and reduce pain and suffering?

We would not be able to retrieve a fugitive from justice if he or she fled to an "isolated society", and no, clause 3 does not apply to this situation, which remains effectively unaddressed. Also unaddressed is the security risk of a nearby "isolated society" that occupies a strategically valuable location and is vulnerable to non-WA interference. Should we stand by and watch as they are enslaved by others far less scrupulous than even the most cynical Kriovallers, armed with nothing but the vague promise of an "urges..." clause?

The real question is: why are you so furiously against preventing ritual infanticide, promoting medical advances in societies that have done without, and the expansion of trade to the benefit of all involved?

[Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

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Grays Harbor
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Postby Grays Harbor » Mon Nov 30, 2009 10:19 pm

Krioval wrote: The real question is: why are you so furiously against preventing ritual infanticide, promoting medical advances in societies that have done without, and the expansion of trade to the benefit of all involved?


Brikkel yawned as he looked up from the novel he was reading, "Ah, Tyvok, you should know by now that political posturing is vastly more important to some here than trying to do anything truly useful."
Everything you know about me is wrong. Or a rumor. Something like that.

Not Ta'veren

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The Altani Federation
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Founded: Mar 24, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby The Altani Federation » Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:37 am

The Altani Federation would oppose this measure if it ever came to vote. In areas that have been annexed to the Federation and made constituent states, we have brought prosperity, progress and modern technology to the people there. We have greatly improved the lives of such people, given them citizenship and full rights, and ensured that they will be protected from harm by unscrupulous colonialists. This draft assumes the worst of expanding nations, and does not take into account nations like the Federation, which pursue expansion in a humane and civilized way. As others such as Ambassador Tyvok have pointed out, this draft is also gravely flawed and would hinder nations like the Federation in our necessary and fair growth and expansion.

We do believe that the rights and culture of indigenous and isolated cultures should protected. This is not the way to go about it.

-Nikolai Nagashybyuly, Ambassador
The Associated Sovereign Nations of the Altani Federation
Many lands, many peoples, one Federation.

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Unibotian WASC Mission
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Founded: Oct 27, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Unibotian WASC Mission » Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:03 pm

Incorrect. The proposal reaches far, far beyond preventing extinction or enslavement. It says that Krioval cannot intervene to stop infant sacrifice because that would entail "converting inhabitants to a new religion or cultural belief system" if we so much as mentioned "penalties". We would not even be able to threaten "social isolation" - ironically enough - to stop infanticide; we would have to allow them the freedom to move about while not stepping on their delicate sensibilities.


The real clause is,
Assimilating or converting inhabitants to a new religion, or cultural belief system by either threating them with penalties, harm or social isolation if they do not convert;


Can you not stop the inhabitant from practicing the infant sacrifice without penalties harm or social isolation? I believe if your rhetoric is not strong enough to convince someone without deterring them through punishment, you should probably reevaluate the customs which you are forcing upon these people.

We would not be able to create any "dependency" between the Imperial Chiefdom and an "isolated society" even if that dependence were mutual and in the pursuit of trade opportunities. Why would Krioval stand back and withhold medical technology that could extend lives and reduce pain and suffering?


The clause to which this pertains to has been altered, the dependency is allowed to exist so long as it would not risk the existence of the isolated society if your Chiefdom were to magically disappear (for example if your country found out there was no oil, or no real gold on their territory , you might leave them -- or if your empire was destroyed in war).

We would not be able to retrieve a fugitive from justice if he or she fled to an "isolated society", and no, clause 3 does not apply to this situation, which remains effectively unaddressed. Also unaddressed is the security risk of a nearby "isolated society" that occupies a strategically valuable location and is vulnerable to non-WA interference. Should we stand by and watch as they are enslaved by others far less scrupulous than even the most cynical Kriovallers, armed with nothing but the vague promise of an "urges..." clause?


Okay, ambassador, I'll review the problem. Jurisdiction is obviously a major concern with proposals like these.

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Burninati0n
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Founded: Oct 15, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Burninati0n » Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:24 pm

In short, no. Just, no.

1) Clauses A and F are extremely likely to create a situation where whatever your nation does, it violates one of the two.
2) Man, wouldn't it stink if we sent a ship out to some distant planet with a colonization crew, and found it was inhabited? That would REALLY suck if we didn't have the means to get back.
3) Well, we couldn't give them technology, because that would cause them to become dependent upon us. But, then again, if we don't give them technology, they might all be wiped out by that other non-WA nation who want their planet. Or less epically, that virus that they can't cure. Plus, it stops us from curing it for them, because that would cause them to become dependent upon us. Another infinite loop.

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Krioval
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Founded: Jan 24, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Krioval » Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:11 pm

Unibotian WASC Mission wrote:The real clause is,
Assimilating or converting inhabitants to a new religion, or cultural belief system by either threating them with penalties, harm or social isolation if they do not convert;


Can you not stop the inhabitant from practicing the infant sacrifice without penalties harm or social isolation? I believe if your rhetoric is not strong enough to convince someone without deterring them through punishment, you should probably reevaluate the customs which you are forcing upon these people.


How does Your Excellency suggest that we do so? Force is off the table - not that we would start there. We couldn't threaten social ostracism, nor could we easily convince the society to change its ways; even without this proposal, stopping practices such as these is daunting and requires an incredible degree of finesse.

The clause to which this pertains to has been altered, the dependency is allowed to exist so long as it would not risk the existence of the isolated society if your Chiefdom were to magically disappear (for example if your country found out there was no oil, or no real gold on their territory , you might leave them -- or if your empire was destroyed in war).


Well, that is kind of how most trade agreements function; when the resource is depleted, the buyer can't very well buy more. Of course, we understand that these societies should not be despoiled and left to rot. The Imperial Chiefdom is not averse to spelling out trade contracts clearly whether dealing with "isolated societies" or those already involved in international trade to at least soften the blow. It should still be left to both trading partners to determine whether to proceed or not, though.

Okay, ambassador, I'll review the problem. Jurisdiction is obviously a major concern with proposals like these.


Krioval would be most in favor of an international security proposal that would encourage WA states to protect "isolated societies" from invasion by non-WA nations; a secondary proposal could focus on cultural preservation of minority cultures within reason - no allowing infant sacrifice, but no eliminating languages or cultural practices. Krioval has always been leery of categorizing this legislation as a matter of "moral decency" simply because it seems to affect (at the same time) military intervention, economic intervention, and cultural preservation. A more singular focus going forward might clarify things, and it may remove some of the Imperial Chiefdom's objections.

[Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

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