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[DRAFT] WA Doctrine of First Contact

Where WA members debate how to improve the world, one resolution at a time.

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Unibot
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Postby Unibot » Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:27 pm

Well ambassadors, the Stash Kroh delegation has passed this proposal over to our delegation for sponsorship.

We wish to continue drafting it till its of sufficient quality, and hopefully will submit it in a couples of weeks, once Stash Kroh can straighten out its issues with WA membership with the gnomes.

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Krioval
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Postby Krioval » Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:47 pm

Allow me to articulate the position of the Imperial Chiefdom. We are fully opposed to this legislation. It represents everything that is wrong with the fluffy - in thought, not body - contingent of the WA these days. It elevates cultural relativism to a position of unassailable dogma, which is wrong-headed on many levels. It restricts the opening of legitimate avenues to developing mutually beneficial trade between cultures. It forces WA nations to act as WA representatives before acting as national representatives. It restricts the sovereign right of nations to exercise control over territory that is within that nation's jurisdiction. Krioval wrote, campaigned for, and managed to pass National Economic Freedoms in direct response to the tripe that is this proposal, and for the unmitigated calamity that was Protection of Outer Space Act. NEF is specifically designed to block WA interference with regard to trade in national jurisdictions, which is something that this proposal fervently endeavors to do.

Now that I have dispensed with the pleasantries, the Imperial Chiefdom does oppose this, will oppose this regardless of amendments, and fully reserves the rights to interfere not only with this drafting, but also with any campaign designed to move this forward, to the limits of decorum. This legislation is nothing more than another paternalistic attempt for a holier-than-thou nation to push its beliefs onto those nations that are successful and prosperous, and whose cultural influence threatens them. Protection of Outer Space set forth to protect vacuum. This proposal seeks to seal off entire societies within a vacuum. At the end of the day, they are both vacuous indeed.

[Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

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Ilharessa
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Postby Ilharessa » Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:48 pm

Cursing can be heard as the Ilharessa ambassadoress, along with her three proteges, come rushing into the room in a flurry of skirts and rattling papers.

"Sorry we're a bit late! We got held up because of an important communication," Velnayanis says as she heads for her seat, directing the proteges to grab her a copy of the proposal.

Stash Kroh wrote:[Recognizing the existence of many remote societies who have been discovered over the years living on various continents, islands and far off planetary systems without any prior knowledge of intelligent life living among them,


Velnayanis could only raise an eyebrow. "If they are not intelligent, then how can they have a society? Or do wolfpacks count as civilizations now?"

1. Forbids member nations and their citizens from claiming property within the area the isolated society is secluded to -- no matter the size or extensiveness of the homeland;


"Not even property granted to them as a result of the... Girl, hand me the twenty-second resolution." Velnayanis then scowled at the paper one of her proteges hands her. "No, not the one on pollution! Hand me the one on diplomats!" She then snorts derisively at the ruffling of papers before the correct one is handed over. "The Diplomat Protection Act, specifically negotiations to choose the building that would be the diplomatic station? Does this also prevent the establishment of military bases inside a nation that is, technologically, incapable of defending itself against an invading power that doesn't have to worry about obeying this law?"

3. Demands that upon contact with a isolated society, this document, the WA Doctrine of First Contact be explained to the first contacted, translated for understanding (if necessary) and clarified on any clause that an inhabitant does not comprehend;


The ambassadoress facepalmed. "You mean to tell me that someone from my nation has to waste their time in trying to get every group of wild animals we run across to understand this document? And what kind of damage do you think it will have to societies that have never had personal freedoms granted by their governments when you have to explain the concept to them? This article alone causes a potential wherein the law contradicts itself."

5. Encourages member nations to refrain from intruding, or conducting any activity that leads to an inhabitant’s scientific awareness of civilization outside of their society -- however, understands that this sort of paternalization is not universally agreed upon or necessary in some circumstances;


"This contradicts number 3, in that the above one requires you to make them scientifically aware of an entire organization of nations while this one tries to have you avoid making them aware of any other nations. Will you make up your mind on which you want already?"

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Unibot
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Postby Unibot » Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:52 pm

Lord Tyvok, I am confounded at how you see your trade with a nation as viable and yet ethical, without complying with the following statements...

Entrusts the World Assembly with the immediate abolition of the following travesties against isolated societies by member nations and their citizens ...

(a) Harming an inhabitant through any physical, mental, social, environmental, cultural or virtual means -- including the unnatural spread of disease, or the introduction of cultural aspects such as alcoholism;
(b) Assimilating or converting inhabitants to a new religion, or cultural belief system by either threating them with penalties, harm or social isolation if they do not convert;
(c) Reducing the social, political or economic freedoms granted to an inhabitant by the government, or lack of government in an isolated society;
(d) Establishing any sort of dependency between the isolated society and a member nation, that prevents the isolated society from being self-sustainable;


.. I will be editing (a), to increase the restricted severity, and thus allow for the introduction of alcohol, so long as the trade complies with the fourth criteria, which demands that there be no immediate dependency which prevents the society from being self-sustainable.

However, you've already made it quite clear my edits are fruitless.

Thank you,
Commander Zhildigio

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Unibot
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Postby Unibot » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:02 pm

Ilharessa wrote:
1. Forbids member nations and their citizens from claiming property within the area the isolated society is secluded to -- no matter the size or extensiveness of the homeland;


"Not even property granted to them as a result of the... Girl, hand me the twenty-second resolution." Velnayanis then scowled at the paper one of her proteges hands her. "No, not the one on pollution! Hand me the one on diplomats!" She then snorts derisively at the ruffling of papers before the correct one is handed over. "The Diplomat Protection Act, specifically negotiations to choose the building that would be the diplomatic station? Does this also prevent the establishment of military bases inside a nation that is, technologically, incapable of defending itself against an invading power that doesn't have to worry about obeying this law?"

3. Demands that upon contact with a isolated society, this document, the WA Doctrine of First Contact be explained to the first contacted, translated for understanding (if necessary) and clarified on any clause that an inhabitant does not comprehend;


The ambassadoress facepalmed. "You mean to tell me that someone from my nation has to waste their time in trying to get every group of wild animals we run across to understand this document? And what kind of damage do you think it will have to societies that have never had personal freedoms granted by their governments when you have to explain the concept to them? This article alone causes a potential wherein the law contradicts itself."

5. Encourages member nations to refrain from intruding, or conducting any activity that leads to an inhabitant’s scientific awareness of civilization outside of their society -- however, understands that this sort of paternalization is not universally agreed upon or necessary in some circumstances;


"This contradicts number 3, in that the above one requires you to make them scientifically aware of an entire organization of nations while this one tries to have you avoid making them aware of any other nations. Will you make up your mind on which you want already?"


Good points, ambassador. However the "Diplomat Protection Act" does not apply, as the isolated society is not bound by World Assembly laws. They're free to not give a rat's ass about the safety of your ambassador.

I will be looking to clarify Clause 3 following the dilemma you've mentioned,

and Clause 5 is not a contradiction, merely appealing to the more paternal crowd (then lets say... Krioval !). You'll notice the wording in Clause 3, "Demands that upon contact" as opposed to Clause 5, which describes a WA nation's relations with an isolated society before contact.

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New Rockport
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Postby New Rockport » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:05 pm

Stash Kroh wrote:2. Entrusts the World Assembly with the immediate abolition of the following travesties against isolated societies by member nations and their citizens ...


I'm not sure that travesties is the right word here.
The Federal Republic of New Rockport


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Stash Kroh
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Postby Stash Kroh » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:22 pm

New Rockport wrote:
Stash Kroh wrote:2. Entrusts the World Assembly with the immediate abolition of the following travesties against isolated societies by member nations and their citizens ...


I'm not sure that travesties is the right word here.


Shame on my delegation, ambassador -- English is not Stash Kroh's first language, obviously.

We will reword the following clause.
Ambassador Adelinda Gliemann
The Clockwork Forge of Stash Kroh
WA Security Council Liaison

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Ilharessa
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Postby Ilharessa » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:26 pm

Unibot wrote:Good points, ambassador. However the "Diplomat Protection Act" does not apply, as the isolated society is not bound by World Assembly laws. They're free to not give a rat's ass about the safety of your ambassador.

I will be looking to clarify Clause 3 following the dilemma you've mentioned,

and Clause 5 is not a contradiction, merely appealing to the more paternal crowd (then lets say... Krioval !). You'll notice the wording in Clause 3, "Demands that upon contact" as opposed to Clause 5, which describes a WA nation's relations with an isolated society before contact.


"Mmm... I think you'll find it does. Let me... Girl, hand me the paper again!" The ambassadoress could only sigh as it's handed over. "Let me quote it for you. 'REQUIRES that property agreed upon as extraterritorial or as diplomatic pouches or bags be immune to search, seizure, customs, taxes, vandalism or arson by military or government officials of the nation in which the diplomat is serving, or military assaults by the nation in which the diplomat is serving.' As this law can only affect the nations that are World Assembly members and not nations that are outside of it, it affects the actions of those nations. In such a case, this brings up the problem in that a World Assembly nation, which is required to follow the Diplomat Protection Act, cannot establish any embassies in the nation to help establish it with the rest of the world that are extraterritorial and, as such, protected by that particular clause. This creates a conflict for them, as the Diplomat Protection Act covers them and, as such, any interactions they have with nonmember nations but this law does not allow them to take full advantage of it with any nation that qualifies as isolated."

She paused a moment as a protege whispered into her ear. "Yes, yes." She sighs. "Sorry about my attitude today. As I said, matters back home that I had to attend to as soon as I arrived. Anyway... I think you'll find that the issue does create a contradiction in the encourages part, as it is effectively unuseable due to the part that requires the explaining of any part of the law that the nation itself does not understand, which happens to automatically include the existance of other nations, and does not specify a limit as to when it applies. While it is intended to apply before contact, nothing in the wording about it prevents it from applying long after contact has been achieved. And as most discoveries of nations of that sort likely involve accidental contact..."

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Grays Harbor
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Postby Grays Harbor » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:38 pm

Krioval wrote:Allow me to articulate the position of the Imperial Chiefdom. We are fully opposed to this legislation. It represents everything that is wrong with the fluffy - in thought, not body - contingent of the WA these days. It elevates cultural relativism to a position of unassailable dogma, which is wrong-headed on many levels. It restricts the opening of legitimate avenues to developing mutually beneficial trade between cultures. It forces WA nations to act as WA representatives before acting as national representatives. It restricts the sovereign right of nations to exercise control over territory that is within that nation's jurisdiction. Krioval wrote, campaigned for, and managed to pass National Economic Freedoms in direct response to the tripe that is this proposal, and for the unmitigated calamity that was Protection of Outer Space Act. NEF is specifically designed to block WA interference with regard to trade in national jurisdictions, which is something that this proposal fervently endeavors to do.

Now that I have dispensed with the pleasantries, the Imperial Chiefdom does oppose this, will oppose this regardless of amendments, and fully reserves the rights to interfere not only with this drafting, but also with any campaign designed to move this forward, to the limits of decorum. This legislation is nothing more than another paternalistic attempt for a holier-than-thou nation to push its beliefs onto those nations that are successful and prosperous, and whose cultural influence threatens them. Protection of Outer Space set forth to protect vacuum. This proposal seeks to seal off entire societies within a vacuum. At the end of the day, they are both vacuous indeed.

[Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval


Tyvok has stated nearly precicely what our thoughts on this are. We shall oppose this for as long as it takes for it to dissappear.

Murray, I want you to do a little investigation. See if the Krioval delegation has our offices bugged.
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Stash Kroh
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Postby Stash Kroh » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:40 pm

Grabs a copy of GA#22,

Well there's your problem, "RECOGNIZING that diplomatic immunity must be agreed upon by the nation the diplomat represents and the nation the diplomat serves in".

The resolution does not apply, unless the isolated society agrees to the WA concept of "diplomatic immunity".
Ambassador Adelinda Gliemann
The Clockwork Forge of Stash Kroh
WA Security Council Liaison

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Ilharessa
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Postby Ilharessa » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:00 pm

Velnayanis grinned. "I would note, though, that the section I quoted is not listed in the part that details the provisions of diplomatic immunity. As such, that section applies whether or not diplomatic immunity is ever agreed to by both nations."
Last edited by Ilharessa on Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tsukasa-chan
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Postby Tsukasa-chan » Thu Nov 26, 2009 2:54 am

I applaud Ambassador Tyvok's magnificent oratory skills and ability to express exactly what is wrong with this kind of proposal, and see no need to add to their points. I will stand against this proposal until the end of time or the formal dissolution of the Incorporated States of Tsukasa-chan or my own withdrawal from action in this universe, whichever comes last.

Rin 4
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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:30 am

OOC: Oops! Promised to post my thoughts on this some time ago, didn't I? Sorry, but I got distracted and then it dropped too far down the page (for a while) to catch my attention again. Please consider this post to be a place-holder for some suggestions, which will be coming soon...)
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Unibotian WASC Mission
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Postby Unibotian WASC Mission » Thu Nov 26, 2009 3:10 pm

Tsukasa-chan wrote:I applaud Ambassador Tyvok's magnificent oratory skills and ability to express exactly what is wrong with this kind of proposal, and see no need to add to their points. I will stand against this proposal until the end of time or the formal dissolution of the Incorporated States of Tsukasa-chan or my own withdrawal from action in this universe, whichever comes last.

Rin 4
International Ambassador


Yes, I know its terrible, isn't it? -- How could the World Assembly expect for us, the pinnacle of civilization, to treat our loyal savages trade partners with respect, while refraining from killing off their species?

Honestly, I had no idea that Social Darwinism influenced our halls this much.

OOC: Yeah Yeah Yeah, Darwin is RL,

OOC: Oops! Promised to post my thoughts on this some time ago, didn't I? Sorry, but I got distracted and then it dropped too far down the page (for a while) to catch my attention again. Please consider this post to be a place-holder for some suggestions, which will be coming soon...)


OOC: Yep, take your time.

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Krioval
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Krioval » Thu Nov 26, 2009 8:04 pm

Unibotian WASC Mission wrote:Yes, I know its terrible, isn't it? -- How could the World Assembly expect for us, the pinnacle of civilization, to treat our loyal savages trade partners with respect, while refraining from killing off their species?

Honestly, I had no idea that Social Darwinism influenced our halls this much.


I had no idea that the WA was the pinnacle of civilization. I mean, who knew that a fractious committee specifically forbidden from establishing its own police force was it? Also, what's with the stricken "savages" line there? The Imperial Chiefdom hardly equates our trading partners with "savages", and a fair number of Kriovallers would consider themselves more savage than most of our friends and allies. Also, we don't kill off sentient species - Your Excellency must be looking for those stricken-out savages or someone.

And it's not about Social Darwinism; it's about mutually beneficial trade leading to mutual prosperity rather than taking the paternalistic line that allowing sentient species to suffer from disease, famine, and incredibly high infant mortality is somehow the "better" decision than sharing one's technology. In fact, I would suppose that Krioval's position is opposite Social Darwinism. Go figure.

[Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

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Stash Kroh
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Postby Stash Kroh » Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:03 pm

I apologize for the tone of my voice, ambassador.

I ponder if this has been a misunderstanding (through my erroneous, vague language). From the points raised in your last speech I've made the following revisions to the text.

(b)Dooming an entire society by interaction (as opposed to a lack of interaction or intervention) through any physical, mental, social, environmental, cultural or virtual means necessary to significantly increase their risk of extinction;
Ambassador Adelinda Gliemann
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Kaesekartoffeln
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Postby Kaesekartoffeln » Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:43 pm

Stash Kroh wrote:Forbids member nations and their citizens from claiming property within the area the isolated society is secluded to -- no matter the size or extensiveness of the homeland;
I believe the word you're looking for is 'extent'

Stash Kroh wrote:Dooming an entire society by interaction (as opposed to a lack of interaction or intervention) through any physical, mental, social, environmental, cultural or virtual means necessary to significantly increase their risk of extinction;
The word necessary is unnecessary.

Stash Kroh wrote:Preventing a member of an isolated society from leaving their homeworld against their own will;
So are we prohibiting nations from preventing individuals from being forcibly removed?

"You're such a jerk, ambassador," whispers the Deputy Ambassador.
"Might as well improve the resolution a little while we're sitting here."
"But the Free Republic isn't even in the WA any more!"
"Eh, I'm sure some future government will want to rejoin."
Last edited by Kaesekartoffeln on Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Stash Kroh
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Postby Stash Kroh » Thu Nov 26, 2009 9:54 pm

Kaesekartoffeln wrote:
Stash Kroh wrote:Forbids member nations and their citizens from claiming property within the area the isolated society is secluded to -- no matter the size or extensiveness of the homeland;
I believe the word you're looking for is 'extent'

Stash Kroh wrote:Dooming an entire society by interaction (as opposed to a lack of interaction or intervention) through any physical, mental, social, environmental, cultural or virtual means necessary to significantly increase their risk of extinction;
The word necessary is unnecessary.

Stash Kroh wrote:Preventing a member of an isolated society from leaving their homeworld against their own will;
So are we prohibiting nations from preventing individuals from being forcibly removed?

"You're such a jerk, ambassador," whispers the Deputy Ambassador.
"Might as well improve the resolution a little while we're sitting here."
"But the Free Republic isn't even in the WA any more!"
"Eh, I'm sure some future government will want to rejoin."


Thank you for the additions/corrections, I will update the draft as soon as possible. (That last correction of yours could have been messy).

And, the old clause 3 and clause 4 have been amalgamated, into a superclause, to prevent WA nations from being forced to reveal the existence of the WA (and therefore intelligent life outside of the universe) in their dealings with an isolated society ...

3. Suspends an isolated society's validity for the proposal's definition of "isolated society", if any inhabitant of the said community forcefully revokes a citizen of a member nation's freedom to physically leave the isolated society, while being fully aware, and cognizant of this document, the WA Doctrine of First Contact, and its content;
Ambassador Adelinda Gliemann
The Clockwork Forge of Stash Kroh
WA Security Council Liaison

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A mean old man
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Postby A mean old man » Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:44 pm

Well, from a IC national standpoint, my nation likes to abuse these people...

...but other than that I'd say this is a decent proposal. Except for maybe the blatant stealing of the idea from a national issue, but I guess we're allowed do that.
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Ilharessa
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Postby Ilharessa » Fri Nov 27, 2009 7:42 am

Stash Kroh wrote:Recognizing the existence of many remote societies who have been discovered over the years living on various continents, islands and distant planetary systems without any prior knowledge of intelligent life living among them,


"The issue we have with this statement still is not dealt with," ambassadoress Valnayanis starts. "The wording of this statement seems to outright state the possibility that the remote societies this proposal is about are lacking in intelligent life. After all, if they are unaware of intelligent life living among them, does 'living among them' not also include their own people? Also, does it not create a situation where people may find the very societies you're talking about becoming hostile to them in response to what could be easily percieved as an insult?"

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Tsukasa-chan
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Postby Tsukasa-chan » Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:11 am

Unibotian WASC Mission wrote:Yes, I know its terrible, isn't it? -- How could the World Assembly expect for us, the pinnacle of civilization, to treat our loyal savages trade partners with respect, while refraining from killing off their species?


If you simply wished to prevent previously isolated communities from being wiped out by the nation on whose territory they live, I would be in full agreement with you. As it stands, this proposal restricts both the trade/gift of beneficial technology and knowledge and necessary intervention in social injustice taking place in said communities. To attempt to wrap civilisations in 'bubble wrap' is folly, and not beneficial for any parties involved.

Rin 4
International Ambassador
The Incorporated States of Tsukasa-chan
“Mochi goes whee!”
The Community of Mochi Ambassadors is the wholly owned WA agent for the ISTc.

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Unibotian WASC Mission
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Postby Unibotian WASC Mission » Sun Nov 29, 2009 10:15 am

How does this proposal restrict trade, ambassador?

And, how does this prevent your country from offering social justice?

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Krioval
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Postby Krioval » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:48 pm

Unibotian WASC Mission wrote:How does this proposal restrict trade, ambassador?


I admit that this was not directed at our delegation, but the Imperial Chiefdom finds that this proposal restricts trade and industry on several levels. First, it interferes with already-existing industry if an "isolated society" is located near an industrial base. It restricts potential trade partners unless we are willing to jump through the WA's bureaucratic hoops. It can strain existing trade routes if they pass closely to a newly discovered "isolated society".

And, how does this prevent your country from offering social justice?[/quote]

Well, if an "isolated society" practices the blood sacrifice of intelligent beings, or if it sanctions the discrimination of beings by race, this proposal would severely restrict the actions that the Imperial Chiefdom could take to protect those threatened. Further, if an "isolated society" was determined to exist within a WA nation's territory, this proposal would actually suspend the various international protections already in force in those areas, effectively tolerating discrimination - or worse.

[Lord] Ambassador Darvek Tyvok
Imperial Chiefdom of Krioval

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Kaesekartoffeln
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Postby Kaesekartoffeln » Sun Nov 29, 2009 3:20 pm

Stash Kroh wrote:(e) Establishing any sort of dependency between the isolated society and a member nation, that prevents the isolated society from being self-sustainable;

Honored Ambassador, this clause severely restricts trade and the improvement of living standards for the isolated group, because "self-sustainable" and "dependency" are such broad terms. In the context of a modern lifestyle, which the WA should not prevent anyone from having, removing a vague "dependency" from a specific area is nearly impossible. If a nation discovers a society on a small island previously thought uninhabited, should the nation be required to build a pharmaceuticals plant there just so the inhabitants can enjoy modern medicine? Should the isolated society be barred from importing better and cheaper food? Should the people be deprived of other modern technology because it cannot be built or serviced in their remote location? This delegation thinks not. The offending clause should be removed.
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Unibotian WASC Mission
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Postby Unibotian WASC Mission » Sun Nov 29, 2009 8:15 pm

Krioval wrote:
Unibotian WASC Mission wrote:How does this proposal restrict trade, ambassador?


I admit that this was not directed at our delegation, but the Imperial Chiefdom finds that this proposal restricts trade and industry on several levels. First, it interferes with already-existing industry if an "isolated society" is located near an industrial base. It restricts potential trade partners unless we are willing to jump through the WA's bureaucratic hoops. It can strain existing trade routes if they pass closely to a newly discovered "isolated society".


But ambassador, one does not just newly discover "isolated societies" in existing trade routes, obvious this either is a new trade route which you are trying to forge, by carelessly wiping out the society obstructing your path -- or the isolated society migrated to this area, in which case they are not by definition isolated, unless they continue to be unknowing of other civilizations existing among them (which could be easily taken care).


Well, if an "isolated society" practices the blood sacrifice of intelligent beings, or if it sanctions the discrimination of beings by race, this proposal would severely restrict the actions that the Imperial Chiefdom could take to protect those threatened.


Is violence necessary to solve all conflicts? Ambassador. By interrupting their cultural proceedings using violence, albeit unethical proceedings, you risk isolating them from your cause. Using violence means many of the society will instantly misinterpret your intentions. Your diplomacy will have failed.


Further, if an "isolated society" was determined to exist within a WA nation's territory, this proposal would actually suspend the various international protections already in force in those areas, effectively tolerating discrimination - or worse.


Again, if this isolated society was found to be living in the supposed territory of the WA nation, obviously this land belongs to the isolated society instead of the WA member nation which neglected to have even visited the area enough to acknowledge the existence of another society living there.

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