[DRAFT] Allowing Torture as a Punishment of Crime

[Cowardly Pacifists]

Actually, in your case I think this is loophole would not apply. Since your religious institution is your government, any action by an official of your religion would also be action by a government official.

Ironically, I'm pretty sure the loophole ShinMomuz identified would only exist for those nations where religious institutions are separate from the government. Any torture by a religious official in a theocracy would be "intentionally inflicting pain... for the purposes of... concession to the demands from them of any other person... committed with the approval or assistance of a government official."

i mean a loophole to fix XD i wasn't going to use it cause technically it is still illegal

Oh I see. Well, in that case, best of luck with your repeal effort!

[The Three Crusader States]

anyone can abuse a loophole so i suggest you do it cause i cant cause i lack endorsements

[Alqania]

"This so-called loophole does not matter", Princess Christine stated matter-of-factly. "Something can be torture if it is:"

an act of intentionally inflicting pain, severe discomfort or suffering on a person

"We can assume, under the Reasonable Nation theory, that it is illegal in member states for private citizens to commit such an act. It would be assault or some similar crime, depending on exactly what the perpetrator does and on the exact penal code of the member state in question. This kind of act is illegal by default, but it may be legal under some circumstances. If it weren't for the Prevention of Torture, member states could make it legal for the purposes listed in that resolution.

In a theocracy, clerics are government officials and could be instructed to use torture, if it weren't for the Prevention of Torture. In a state that is not a theocracy and where clerics are not government officials, why would the member state authorise these clerics to commit such an act for any purpose other than self-defence?"

[The Three Crusader States]

*the ambasader of the Knights of St Mary Walks over* "your a princess i do not expect you to learn about the key sectors of politics but if you kindly look outside of your walls and look at the nations that would abuse this loophole claiming that they did not command it to be done would be able to break the current law private individuals can also commit torture because they are not of the state also remember the seperation of church in state in most member nations" *he slowly moves to his chair and sits down calmly and looks directly at the princess*

[Cowardly Pacifists]

anyone can abuse a loophole so i suggest you do it cause i cant cause i lack endorsements

My delegation has no interest in trying to repeal the Torture resolution. As far as we're concerned, if the WA really felt that this loophole was legitimate, it could pass an another resolution specifically criminalizing torture by individuals. It is my impression that most reasonable nations believe that #9 does cover torture by individuals as well as the government, despite the clunky wording or the technical loophole pointed out by ShinMomuz. The purpose and intent of the resolution is widely understood (and implemented, I should think).

If nations want to comply with the governmental ban on torture but allow "private" torture to occur, I suppose that's their prerogative. Every resolution has loopholes if you look hard enough. But it can be assumed that most nations would criminalize torture by private individuals even if they thought that this loophole existed. What could a government possibly gain by refraining from torturing folks but allowing its citizens to torture one another?

[The Three Crusader States]

*the ambasader turns his head and looks at the delegate* "some nations i refuse to mention would happily use the loophole you have seen it before and so have we use equality to destory the loophole so the dictator states can not use it"

[Soviet Canuckistan]

The Ambassader of the Knights of the Temple which has joined with two other crusader states walks over and hits segei with a baton
"Dont attack the writing manner which was excused, two we declared rape and pedophilia as punishable with torture based on the fact that both can be classed as physical and mental torture and, we define torture as alot of pain caused by physical beatings and mental torture by attacking them with fear!"

Sergei dodged the baton strike and went back to his nap. Then Simone rolled her eyes and said "Mr. Ambassador, a definition has to not have the word being defined in it or it is not a definition and for this act, you need to define torture for my nation to even consider approving this and if you need endorsements move to my region. Third, you cannot use religion as an exemption as the resolution for freedom of religion cannot be in contradiction of Resolution 9 or it would be invalid. Also, it is not in good taste to try to attack other delegates unless you want to be attacked. Oh, and the part with rape as ground for that, you say that rape is ground for torture, however you also say that torture will be used when the rights of another citizen are abused, how is rape something that takes away rights?"

OOC:Get a spell-check

[The Three Crusader States]

The Ambassader of the Knights of the Temple which has joined with two other crusader states walks over and hits segei with a baton
"Dont attack the writing manner which was excused, two we declared rape and pedophilia as punishable with torture based on the fact that both can be classed as physical and mental torture and, we define torture as alot of pain caused by physical beatings and mental torture by attacking them with fear!"

Sergei dodged the baton strike and went back to his nap. Then Simone rolled her eyes and said "Mr. Ambassador, a definition has to not have the word being defined in it or it is not a definition and for this act, you need to define torture for my nation to even consider approving this and if you need endorsements move to my region. Third, you cannot use religion as an exemption as the resolution for freedom of religion cannot be in contradiction of Resolution 9 or it would be invalid. Also, it is not in good taste to try to attack other delegates unless you want to be attacked. Oh, and the part with rape as ground for that, you say that rape is ground for torture, however you also say that torture will be used when the rights of another citizen are abused, how is rape something that takes away rights?"

OOC:Get a spell-check

*the templar Ambassader stands up and glares at Simone* "rape what if the poor girl is a virgin i refuse to condone the actions of these fools next debate in the states i will demand we leave inorder to protect the rights of our people fully!" *he then storms out*

[Soviet Canuckistan]

Simone smiled at him and yelled as he was walking out "Then she gets a free gift!!' Simone returned back to her duties, shuffling papers about and reminding Sergei to stay awake.

[Venolia]

this is my first proposol so please dont kill me over it also i have Dyspraxia so there is likely going to be errors in typing and for that i am sorry also construcive criticism would be nice so i know what to improve for next time and any tips would be liked aswell

Catagory:Law
Strength:Significant

"The World Assembly
REALISES: That Crime must be dealt with

Believes: That Crime is bad and must be dealt with in a new manner

Upset: that some punishments do not fully fit the crime

Seeks: to be allowed to use Torture as a punishment of crime when one citizen takes away anothers rights

hereby mandates the following

1. That Torture should be allowed as a punishment if the crime is severe enough

2.That the Crimes that will allow such torture include Rape and Pedophilia

3.If any crime occurs along side the above torture can also be allowed

OMG! I fully endorse this!

[The Three Crusader States]

The Ambassader of the Knights of the Temple which has joined with two other crusader states walks over and hits segei with a baton
"Dont attack the writing manner which was excused, two we declared rape and pedophilia as punishable with torture based on the fact that both can be classed as physical and mental torture and, we define torture as alot of pain caused by physical beatings and mental torture by attacking them with fear!"

Sergei dodged the baton strike and went back to his nap. Then Simone rolled her eyes and said "Mr. Ambassador, a definition has to not have the word being defined in it or it is not a definition and for this act, you need to define torture for my nation to even consider approving this and if you need endorsements move to my region. Third, you cannot use religion as an exemption as the resolution for freedom of religion cannot be in contradiction of Resolution 9 or it would be invalid. Also, it is not in good taste to try to attack other delegates unless you want to be attacked. Oh, and the part with rape as ground for that, you say that rape is ground for torture, however you also say that torture will be used when the rights of another citizen are abused, how is rape something that takes away rights?"

OOC:Get a spell-check

OOC:ok i had to calmly return to explain why my reaction was as such three of my exes are rape victims....one cant even have proper sexual contact because of it and even my current gf is a rape victim so........its a subject that makes me extremely angry extremely quickly...........

[The Three Crusader States]

Simone smiled at him and yelled as he was walking out "Then she gets a free gift!!' Simone returned back to her duties, shuffling papers about and reminding Sergei to stay awake.

*the Knights of Saint Mary looks at Simone* "she gets a free gift? might i remind you girl that if your goal is to anger us or promote such crime that we hold as dark as hell that your nation will be condemed to fire and brimstone get back to your master the sole reason, he is angry now is alot worse we want a formal apology or we will leave the WA under the terms, that we do not expect abuse or reminders of bad times be said to our ambasaders remember if you speak another word of hatred or of mocking all diplomatic relations will be cut permanently"

[Soviet Canuckistan]

Sergei dodged the baton strike and went back to his nap. Then Simone rolled her eyes and said "Mr. Ambassador, a definition has to not have the word being defined in it or it is not a definition and for this act, you need to define torture for my nation to even consider approving this and if you need endorsements move to my region. Third, you cannot use religion as an exemption as the resolution for freedom of religion cannot be in contradiction of Resolution 9 or it would be invalid. Also, it is not in good taste to try to attack other delegates unless you want to be attacked. Oh, and the part with rape as ground for that, you say that rape is ground for torture, however you also say that torture will be used when the rights of another citizen are abused, how is rape something that takes away rights?"

OOC:Get a spell-check

OOC:ok i had to calmly return to explain why my reaction was as such three of my exes are rape victims....one cant even have proper sexual contact because of it and even my current gf is a rape victim so........its a subject that makes me extremely angry extremely quickly...........

OOC:Sorry dude, my apologies

[Cowardly Pacifists]

OOC:ok i had to calmly return to explain why my reaction was as such three of my exes are rape victims....one cant even have proper sexual contact because of it and even my current gf is a rape victim so........its a subject that makes me extremely angry extremely quickly...........

(OOC: I'm sorry that happened to people you care about. But this is a game - and you're hanging out with folks who have very particular views on the role of government. Perhaps this is not the best place to air your personal grievances towards rapists. We're here to play and have fun - and many of our characters are of the firm belief that torture has no place as a criminal punishment.

You are certainly welcome to get into the game and play with us. But you should expect many people to be resistant (and outright combative) to the principle you espouse (that torture is an appropriate criminal punishment). So if you're going to get too upset by that reaction, maybe you should bring this subject up in a more appropriate forum (i.e. just about anywhere but an online game).)

[The Three Crusader States]

OOC:ok i had to calmly return to explain why my reaction was as such three of my exes are rape victims....one cant even have proper sexual contact because of it and even my current gf is a rape victim so........its a subject that makes me extremely angry extremely quickly...........

OOC:Sorry dude, my apologies

OOC its alright you didn't know until now hell i should be in bed but i refused because i felt like i needed to explain myself cause it would have looked like i was angry for no reason except you disagree which is not fully so you disagreeed we need people to have different views otherwise what do we have XD

[The Three Crusader States]

OOC:ok i had to calmly return to explain why my reaction was as such three of my exes are rape victims....one cant even have proper sexual contact because of it and even my current gf is a rape victim so........its a subject that makes me extremely angry extremely quickly...........

(OOC: I'm sorry that happened to people you care about. But this is a game - and you're hanging out with folks who have very particular views on the role of government. Perhaps this is not the best place to air your personal grievances towards rapists. We're here to play and have fun - and many of our characters are of the firm belief that torture has no place as a criminal punishment.

You are certainly welcome to get into the game and play with us. But you should expect many people to be resistant (and outright combative) to the principle you espouse (that torture is an appropriate criminal punishment). So if you're going to get too upset by that reaction, maybe you should bring this subject up in a more appropriate forum (i.e. just about anywhere but an online game).)

OOC: yeah i know i just need to calm the hell down its the only subject that gets me extremely angry other then pedophilia but then again i group them both together so i get mad from both anyway yes i can rp fine i just need to relax and understand that this is for fun and not a place for me to get angry or air my personal anger either

[Apoctis]

IC: Finally the mortal group called the WA does one thing right.

[Alqania]

"Is there something wrong with the record keeping?", Princess Christine asked. "There seems to be no punctuation in statements made by His Excellency the Ambassador of the Three Crusader States. I am afraid that given the impaired intelligibility of those statements, it may seem like His Excellency made an attack on the Alqanian Crown. Of course, a pacifist like myself would just hate it if the Queendom deemed it necessary to retaliate with military force on the Theocracy.

As to the debate, the Queendom reiterates that this Assembly needs not criminalise assault, as any reasonable nation has already done so themselves."

[The Three Crusader States]

"Is there something wrong with the record keeping?", Princess Christine asked. "There seems to be no punctuation in statements made by His Excellency the Ambassador of the Three Crusader States. I am afraid that given the impaired intelligibility of those statements, it may seem like His Excellency made an attack on the Alqanian Crown. Of course, a pacifist like myself would just hate it if the Queendom deemed it necessary to retaliate with military force on the Theocracy.

As to the debate, the Queendom reiterates that this Assembly needs not criminalise assault, as any reasonable nation has already done so themselves."

OOC: personal Insult to me........i have bad grammer because 1.i got bullied and lack a standard english education 2.i have dyspraxia so my learning of english and even writing of it is hindered........

*the ambassader of the knights of Saint mary looks at the princess* "your......i dont know that status to refer to you as but it must be made clear that we hold three ambassader seats because we are three states one just stormed out demanding a re-vote on us being here, and such hostile action would allow us to call up our religion in a holy war which greatly out numbers you also it was not an attack on the crown it was an request to look outside the walls and look at the nations that would use a loophole that exists."

[Frisbeeteria]

Let's give the Grammar Police the rest of the week off, folks. IC slams at grammar look a lot like OOC attacks, so how about we just drop them for a bit.

[The Three Crusader States]

Let's give the Grammar Police the rest of the week off, folks. IC slams at grammar look a lot like OOC attacks, so how about we just drop them for a bit.

OOC: thank you i also explained on the first post why i have bad grammer seems people ignored it

[Alqania]

"Is there something wrong with the record keeping?", Princess Christine asked. "There seems to be no punctuation in statements made by His Excellency the Ambassador of the Three Crusader States. I am afraid that given the impaired intelligibility of those statements, it may seem like His Excellency made an attack on the Alqanian Crown. Of course, a pacifist like myself would just hate it if the Queendom deemed it necessary to retaliate with military force on the Theocracy.

As to the debate, the Queendom reiterates that this Assembly needs not criminalise assault, as any reasonable nation has already done so themselves."

OOC: personal Insult to me........i have bad grammer because 1.i got bullied and lack a standard english education 2.i have dyspraxia so my learning of english and even writing of it is hindered........

*the ambassader of the knights of Saint mary looks at the princess* "your......i dont know that status to refer to you as but it must be made clear that we hold three ambassader seats because we are three states one just stormed out demanding a re-vote on us being here, and such hostile action would allow us to call up our religion in a holy war which greatly out numbers you also it was not an attack on the crown it was an request to look outside the walls and look at the nations that would use a loophole that exists."

((OOC: Fine.

DISCLAIMER: English is not my first language and I may misunderstand posts that are written without punctuation, because they are harder for me to read and understand correctly. I apologise in advance for any misunderstanding that may arise from me inaccurately interpreting information that is not organised into sentences.

))

"The correct form of address is Your Royal Highness", Princess Christine informed. "The statement made by Your Excellency's colleague seemed to me like His Excellency in a rather patronising manner assumed that I was ignorant because I am a Princess, an assumption that could very well be construed as an attack on the Crown. Are the Crusader States familiar with the Reasonable Nation theory? My argument was based on that theory.

And I find it rather laughable to claim that the Three Crusader States would outnumber Her Majesty's Armed Forces. One needs only to have a glance at the size of our respective populations and economies to understand who would be able to sustain the largest force. But if His Excellency could clarify that he did not presume to know what an Alqanian Princess does and does not know, perhaps this whole thing could be forgotten."

[WA Grammar Police]

Let's give the Grammar Police the rest of the week off, folks. IC slams at grammar look a lot like OOC attacks, so how about we just drop them for a bit.

The rest of the week? But it's only Monday! This time off better be paid or my union rep is gonna get more than a few threatening phone calls...

[The Three Crusader States]

*the ambassader of the knights of saint mary looks at the princess* "it was i that asked you to look out your walls, my college had nothing to do with it also we do not rely on our population we also enforce by zealots and foreign mercs who are voluntering also your....royal.....highness i can not be called excellency for i am not worthy of the title also i'd like you to present a arguement how your royal.Also we have not read the "Reasonable Nations Theory" also my sole demand if for you to look at the nations that would use a loop hole quite happily something we refuse to do.Next on the agenda for our arguement is the cutting of relations we want an apology for the threat of violence something we take very seriously."

OOC: if anyone can recommend any spell check programs please say XD

[Alqania]

*the ambassader of the knights of saint mary looks at the princess* "it was i that asked you to look out your walls, my college had nothing to do with it also we do not rely on our population we also enforce by zealots and foreign mercs who are voluntering also your....royal.....highness i can not be called excellency for i am not worthy of the title also i'd like you to present a arguement how your royal.Also we have not read the "Reasonable Nations Theory" also my sole demand if for you to look at the nations that would use a loop hole quite happily something we refuse to do.Next on the agenda for our arguement is the cutting of relations we want an apology for the threat of violence something we take very seriously."

OOC: if anyone can recommend any spell check programs please say XD

"I see, I apologise for getting you Crusader Ambassadors mixed up with each other. I respectfully maintain that the Queendom can support more forces than the Three Crusader States, but I am still hoping that we shall not have to prove that. As for how I am Royal... I am the grandchild of Her Departed Majesty Queen Catherine of Alqania, may the Gods grant her peace and solace in the afterlife and us strength and courage to live on without her.

There is an article on the Reasonable Nation Theory here. I believe that theory invalidates your request.

And please, you want an apology? That is amusing. Go ahead and cut whatever relations you want; the opportunity to retract the statement calling me ignorant will not be on the table forever."