[DRAFT] Allowing Torture as a Punishment of Crime

[Ertae]

If you really want this, you'll have to draft a repeal of Prevention of Torture, as well as any other resolution that might ban it in some manner. It'll more than likely drop dead the moment it touches the floor, though.

[ShinMomuz]

Ironically this mean Anarchist nations can commit as much torture as they like. Lacking a government and all that.

OOC: This isn't exactly a loophole that can be Spackled over with reasonable nation theory, as it leaves anarchist nations and any nation who employs private contractors for criminal justice work without too much oversight to torture people at will.

Really there are any number of scenarios in which torture not being torture unless a government official gives it their stamp of official approval is not a good thing.

[The Three Crusader States]

OOC: your acting like China XD

*the ambassader glares at the princess* "you threaten a smaller nation? you expect us to apologise we do not fear you and never will next on the issue is this your demand is completely fivalrous you should apologise for threats of violence to a smaller nation and also never threaten us again because from now on as you keep mentioning it your bigger so act like a damn bigger nation and back off"

EDIT: OOC: also any form of invasion would be lost cause you cant even enter the region XD any war you wage would more or less just annoy me on the forums but other then that nowt would come of it

[Libraria and Ausitoria]

"Illegal, and, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, ..."
(Lord Whittingrey turned blue, paused for breath, and continued:)
"way! ¬ will we let torture ever be permitted! It is so unacceptable that... it's about the only punishment we'd even consider for it! We are more against it that anything else in reality, except one thing, and that would be infringing the right to own property or receive compensation."

[Cirakai]

Ironically this mean Anarchist nations can commit as much torture as they like. Lacking a government and all that.

OOC: This isn't exactly a loophole that can be Spackled over with reasonable nation theory, as it leaves anarchist nations and any nation who employs private contractors for criminal justice work without too much oversight to torture people at will.

Really there are any number of scenarios in which torture not being torture unless a government official gives it their stamp of official approval is not a good thing.

OOC: What about those nations where "criminal justice" is handled by an angry mob?

[The Three Crusader States]

*the ambassader looks at lord whittingrey* "may i ask that the lord breaths more? i was concered he'd pass out from lack of oxygen also we only want torture for rapists and pedophiles and thats it."

[Grays Harbor]

*the ambassader looks at lord whittingrey* "may i ask that the lord breaths more? i was concered he'd pass out from lack of oxygen also we only want torture for rapists and pedophiles and thats it."

We do not care who you want torture for, the fact it is illegal doesn't change because you find somebody "deserving it". We fail to see the controversy in this. It is a rather yes/no question, without wiggle room. Just because #9 does not, for example, specifically state that torture conducted by a one-eyed, left-handed dwarf is not illegal, that does not make it legal.

[Hirota]

*the ambassader looks at lord whittingrey* "may i ask that the lord breaths more? i was concered he'd pass out from lack of oxygen also we only want torture for rapists and pedophiles and thats it."

You've been told multiple times that you need to repeal #9 before this can progress. I suggest you either put your repeal attempt up (ideally on here so it can be discussed), or you drop the issue...or of course you can leave the WA - which is always your nations prerogative and right to decide to remain a member.

But as has been noted many times already, the depth of opposition to a potential repeal is considerable, and probably too much to overcome.

[Of the Quendi]

Lady Galadriel nos-Malréd shook her head at the proposal. Would reason ever reign in the World Assembly she pondered. "Even if I, or my state, agreed but the slightest with the foul intentions of this resolution, and I assure you we do not, yet even if we did the resolution would be far to invasive into the affairs of the membersstates. Even states that may be inclined to agree with your barbarism would probarbly find the fact that your resolution would mandate to apply torture, a concept you by the way fail to define, to rape and pedophilia to be a far to extensive infringement into the affairs of the membersstates. Furthermore I quite frankly find the proposal poorly written. Hence it is most fortunate that this proposal will never become a reality." The SMFAWA said.

[The Three Crusader States]

*the ambassader puts his head in his hands now sick of the idiocy* "one i mentioned we cant repeal it without endorsements which is actually part of the rules and you lady Galadriel would you like to be threatned by a nation more then 100 times your size? no i'd hope not because thats our reason to leave not because our proposol was refused but because we were threatened by violence by a nation of more one billion people."

[The Three Crusader States]

OOC i'm now sick of people reading one sodden post then attacking! READ ALL THE PAGES OR DONT COMMENT! sick of it now countless times now have i repeated myself and i can not be arsed to do it again.

[Grays Harbor]

OOC i'm now sick of people reading one sodden post then attacking! READ ALL THE PAGES OR DONT COMMENT! sick of it now countless times now have i repeated myself and i can not be arsed to do it again.

OOC: You cracked open this particular can of worms, so stop complaining that they cover your desk now.

[The Three Crusader States]

OOC i'm now sick of people reading one sodden post then attacking! READ ALL THE PAGES OR DONT COMMENT! sick of it now countless times now have i repeated myself and i can not be arsed to do it again.

OOC: You cracked open this particular can of worms, so stop complaining that they cover your desk now.

OOC: cause your too lazy to read? no i dont obey lazy idiots who refuse to spend time to read so i dont have to keep repeating myself

[The Three Crusader States]

OOC this was my first ever draft and the reaction i've got is completely unfit i've been attacked and quite frankly the damn tips and consructive crictism i asked for never occured instead i got attacked call this thread over i'm leaving the WA cause i will not put up with being attacked by a pack of dogs

[Kryozerkia]

OOC: You cracked open this particular can of worms, so stop complaining that they cover your desk now.

OOC: cause your too lazy to read? no i dont obey lazy idiots who refuse to spend time to read so i dont have to keep repeating myself

You're new here so I'll go easy on you. Note the underlined. Those sort of comments tend to have a way of getting negative attention from Moderation. Let's avoid those so I don't have to hand out warnings because you didn't read the rules *hint* click that link, it'll take you to the general rule set.

[The Three Crusader States]

OOC: cause your too lazy to read? no i dont obey lazy idiots who refuse to spend time to read so i dont have to keep repeating myself

You're new here so I'll go easy on you. Note the underlined. Those sort of comments tend to have a way of getting negative attention from Moderation. Let's avoid those so I don't have to hand out warnings because you didn't read the rules *hint* click that link, it'll take you to the general rule set.

OOC: i'm new but i obey the rules of my damn clan where i go which include proper behaviour i attacked in kind to their attacks i wont put up with you either if you put me down aswell i left the WA and will not comment in this corrupt system and also i was speaking truth they are too damn lazy to read all my responces and i will not obey lazy fools who think they know everything allow me to say it or just delete the post -_-

[Starlightia]

this is my first proposol so please dont kill me over it also i have Dyspraxia so there is likely going to be errors in typing and for that i am sorry also construcive criticism would be nice so i know what to improve for next time and any tips would be liked aswell

Catagory:Law
Strength:Significant

"The World Assembly
REALISES: That Crime must be dealt with

Believes: That Crime is bad and must be dealt with in a new manner

Upset: that some punishments do not fully fit the crime

Seeks: to be allowed to use Torture as a punishment of crime when one citizen takes away anothers rights

hereby mandates the following

1. That Torture should be allowed as a punishment if the crime is severe enough

2.That the Crimes that will allow such torture include Rape and Pedophilia

3.If any crime occurs along side the above torture can also be allowed

*the NLR looks over the draft* Really? torture a criminal? No. Just no. I will NOT now, or EVER support this, even if it reaches the WA.

[Of the Quendi]

*the ambassader puts his head in his hands now sick of the idiocy* "one i mentioned we cant repeal it without endorsements which is actually part of the rules and you lady Galadriel would you like to be threatned by a nation more then 100 times your size? no i'd hope not because thats our reason to leave not because our proposol was refused but because we were threatened by violence by a nation of more one billion people."

The SMFAWA looked at the ambassador wondering if the statement was directed at her. It would appear so as she, to her knowledge, was the only one present with the firstname of Galadriel, although that didn't explain why the ambassador would refer to her so familiarly, yet the statement made little sense and certainly didn't address her own. "Mesire ambassador, I have been briefed on the intermezzo with her royal highness the princess Christine and your representation. I must say that personally I find the princess's behaviour a testimony to the dignity and grace of her class, and yours rather absurd." The ambassador said clamly and politely. Had she been of the Imperial House of Alcedina, rulling dynasts of the Imperial Government, she would most likely have taken offense. But the SMFAWA was a diplomat to the fingertips, always polite and always tolerant. "While I must admit I find even addressing this proposal as a serious one difficult I shall however do my best. regarding the use of torture on pedophiles a problem arise as a considerable amount of pedophiles abuse their own offspring or relatives. Given the loving nature of all children to all people, one that I could only wish the crusaders shared, children could therefore be inclined not to reveal the assault they where subjected to, to other adults as they would not wish for a family member to be tortured. Therefore, on this matter, your eye for an eye approach will do nothing but serve to conceal assaults on children."

OOC i'm now sick of people reading one sodden post then attacking! READ ALL THE PAGES OR DONT COMMENT! sick of it now countless times now have i repeated myself and i can not be arsed to do it again.

OOC: If this was directed at me I must admit I don't see your point. I have read through the past posts and I don't see anything to suggest that the SMFAWA's statement has actually been dealt with.

OOC this was my first ever draft and the reaction i've got is completely unfit i've been attacked and quite frankly the damn tips and consructive crictism i asked for never occured instead i got attacked call this thread over i'm leaving the WA cause i will not put up with being attacked by a pack of dogs

OOC: Since I wrote my first ever proposal (Repeal "Permit Male Circumcision") just a week ago I can certainly sympathize with that. But if you want a serious debate try make a proposal that doesn't piss of 80 % of the membersstates of the WA and looks n00bish. If you want help writting a proposal on a less controversial issue I would be glad to offer my assistance as I am sure many other people would.

[The Three Crusader States]

*the ambassader puts his head in his hands now sick of the idiocy* "one i mentioned we cant repeal it without endorsements which is actually part of the rules and you lady Galadriel would you like to be threatned by a nation more then 100 times your size? no i'd hope not because thats our reason to leave not because our proposol was refused but because we were threatened by violence by a nation of more one billion people."

The SMFAWA looked at the ambassador wondering if the statement was directed at her. It would appear so as she, to her knowledge, was the only one present with the firstname of Galadriel, although that didn't explain why the ambassador would refer to her so familiarly, yet the statement made little sense and certainly didn't address her own. "Mesire ambassador, I have been briefed on the intermezzo with her royal highness the princess Christine and your representation. I must say that personally I find the princess's behaviour a testimony to the dignity and grace of her class, and yours rather absurd." The ambassador said clamly and politely. Had she been of the Imperial House of Alcedina, rulling dynasts of the Imperial Government, she would most likely have taken offense. But the SMFAWA was a diplomat to the fingertips, always polite and always tolerant. "While I must admit I find even addressing this proposal as a serious one difficult I shall however do my best. regarding the use of torture on pedophiles a problem arise as a considerable amount of pedophiles abuse their own offspring or relatives. Given the loving nature of all children to all people, one that I could only wish the crusaders shared, children could therefore be inclined not to reveal the assault they where subjected to, to other adults as they would not wish for a family member to be tortured. Therefore, on this matter, your eye for an eye approach will do nothing but serve to conceal assaults on children."

*the ambassader who had just packed his things looks at one speaking and shakes his head* " my nation is not founded by a bunch of purple blooded people but founded by those of a status lower then yours which is why my status is soley diplomatic, it is not the same as a monarch and it in fact quite lower just like our rulers are not allowed the rank or title of king but, instead a position in their respective order and also alot of us were commoners also the WA has not effectivly monitored the actions of its own members and we refuse to be threatned and, as such have left the WA to protect our people and our nation."

[Moronist Decisions]

i left the WA

OOC: Seriously. Listen to the mods, please.

IC: Dibs on your office, and your desk too!

[The Three Crusader States]

*the ambassader puts his head in his hands now sick of the idiocy* "one i mentioned we cant repeal it without endorsements which is actually part of the rules and you lady Galadriel would you like to be threatned by a nation more then 100 times your size? no i'd hope not because thats our reason to leave not because our proposol was refused but because we were threatened by violence by a nation of more one billion people."

The SMFAWA looked at the ambassador wondering if the statement was directed at her. It would appear so as she, to her knowledge, was the only one present with the firstname of Galadriel, although that didn't explain why the ambassador would refer to her so familiarly, yet the statement made little sense and certainly didn't address her own. "Mesire ambassador, I have been briefed on the intermezzo with her royal highness the princess Christine and your representation. I must say that personally I find the princess's behaviour a testimony to the dignity and grace of her class, and yours rather absurd." The ambassador said clamly and politely. Had she been of the Imperial House of Alcedina, rulling dynasts of the Imperial Government, she would most likely have taken offense. But the SMFAWA was a diplomat to the fingertips, always polite and always tolerant. "While I must admit I find even addressing this proposal as a serious one difficult I shall however do my best. regarding the use of torture on pedophiles a problem arise as a considerable amount of pedophiles abuse their own offspring or relatives. Given the loving nature of all children to all people, one that I could only wish the crusaders shared, children could therefore be inclined not to reveal the assault they where subjected to, to other adults as they would not wish for a family member to be tortured. Therefore, on this matter, your eye for an eye approach will do nothing but serve to conceal assaults on children."

OOC i'm now sick of people reading one sodden post then attacking! READ ALL THE PAGES OR DONT COMMENT! sick of it now countless times now have i repeated myself and i can not be arsed to do it again.

OOC: If this was directed at me I must admit I don't see your point. I have read through the past posts and I don't see anything to suggest that the SMFAWA's statement has actually been dealt with.

OOC this was my first ever draft and the reaction i've got is completely unfit i've been attacked and quite frankly the damn tips and consructive crictism i asked for never occured instead i got attacked call this thread over i'm leaving the WA cause i will not put up with being attacked by a pack of dogs

OOC: Since I wrote my first ever proposal (Repeal "Permit Male Circumcision") just a week ago I can certainly sympathize with that. But if you want a serious debate try make a proposal that doesn't piss of 80 % of the membersstates of the WA and looks n00bish. If you want help writting a proposal on a less controversial issue I would be glad to offer my assistance as I am sure many other people would.

OOC: yeah you might want to look at the attacks at my grammer which may be bad but its the best i can do with the education i recived also what is SMFAWA? XD also the threat made me a hell of alot sick and no the OOC statement was directed towards everyone alot less you soley because you weren't the one to basically repeat something i had already responded to

[The Three Crusader States]

i left the WA

OOC: Seriously. Listen to the mods, please.

IC: Dibs on your office, and your desk too!

*he looks at the man* "that office is property of my state still we had to buy it so it is ours and the desk you have one and you have an office thats a bit greedy"

[The Three Crusader States]

OOC: you might also want to check the rules because people who dont rp alot e.g me and are from north east england e.g me use wank in a differen't meaning XD and i'm of working class so dont expect much XD

[ShinMomuz]

Ironically this mean Anarchist nations can commit as much torture as they like. Lacking a government and all that.

OOC: This isn't exactly a loophole that can be Spackled over with reasonable nation theory, as it leaves anarchist nations and any nation who employs private contractors for criminal justice work without too much oversight to torture people at will.

Really there are any number of scenarios in which torture not being torture unless a government official gives it their stamp of official approval is not a good thing.

OOC: What about those nations where "criminal justice" is handled by an angry mob?

So long as the mob-goers lack a government official, then anything goes.

*the ambassader looks at lord whittingrey* "may i ask that the lord breaths more? i was concered he'd pass out from lack of oxygen also we only want torture for rapists and pedophiles and thats it."

We do not care who you want torture for, the fact it is illegal doesn't change because you find somebody "deserving it". We fail to see the controversy in this. It is a rather yes/no question, without wiggle room. Just because #9 does not, for example, specifically state that torture conducted by a one-eyed, left-handed dwarf is not illegal, that does not make it legal.

However it does define torture as requiring "government participation or approval"

For example, if my WA nation so decided, they could allow a private firm to handle criminal justice.

From there, the criminal justice system is no longer part of the government, as such its agents are no longer bound to not torture people. Well technically they can't torture people, because they don't fit the definition. I'm sure ned winkle will be utterly relieved that the thumbscrews and beatings being administered to him aren't torture because of a legal technicality.

Really it isn't all that unreasonable a scenario, especially in anarchist nations, or heavily corporate nations for torture to take place outside of government control.

Essentially it's not torture unless the government officially approves of it or participates. So long as neither takes place international law is satisfied.

[The Three Crusader States]

OOC: What about those nations where "criminal justice" is handled by an angry mob?

So long as the mob-goers lack a government official, then anything goes.

We do not care who you want torture for, the fact it is illegal doesn't change because you find somebody "deserving it". We fail to see the controversy in this. It is a rather yes/no question, without wiggle room. Just because #9 does not, for example, specifically state that torture conducted by a one-eyed, left-handed dwarf is not illegal, that does not make it legal.

However it does define torture as requiring "government participation or approval"

For example, if my WA nation so decided, they could allow a private firm to handle criminal justice.

From there, the criminal justice system is no longer part of the government, as such its agents are no longer bound to not torture people. Well technically they can't torture people, because they don't fit the definition. I'm sure ned winkle will be utterly relieved that the thumbscrews and beatings being administered to him aren't torture because of a legal technicality.

Really it isn't all that unreasonable a scenario, especially in anarchist nations, or heavily corporate nations for torture to take place outside of government control.

Essentially it's not torture unless the government officially approves of it or participates. So long as neither takes place international law is satisfied.

OOC: after that loophole was pointed out i proposed that it be fixed rather then my draft be used and people ignored it compeletely