[Second Draft] Legalizing Prostitution

[Dizyntk]

Why are you avoiding the question? Would you have unprotected sex with a stranger?

"Insisting that Her Royal Highness answer such a question is making the debate more personal, which Your Excellency has previously stated is something Your Excellency does not want the debate to become."

"You assume that he has the ability to remember his own arguments. He has thus far shown no ability to remember anybody else's/"

[Dilange]

PRO: "Prostitution should not be a crime. Prostitutes are not committing an inherently harmful act. While the spread of disease and other detriments are possible in the practice of prostitution, criminalization is a sure way of exacerbating rather than addressing such effects. We saw this quite clearly in the time of alcohol prohibition in this country.

...What makes prostitution a 'victimless crime' in the sense that no one is necessarily harmed by it is that there are consenting adults involved."

I completely agree....

Prostitution creates a setting whereby crimes against men, women, and children become a commercial enterprise.... It is an assault when he/she forces a prostitute to engage in sadomasochistic sex scenes. When a pimp compels a prostitute to submit to sexual demands as a condition of employment, it is exploitation, sexual harassment, or rape -- acts that are based on the prostitute's compliance rather than her consent. The fact that a pimp or customer gives money to a prostitute for submitting to these acts does not alter the fact that child sexual abuse, rape, and/or battery occurs; it merely redefines these crimes as prostitution."
Having sex with children is illegal. It will have regardless of what happens to this resolution. This resolution states nothing about pimps. They are illegal now and still will be. Exploitation, sexual harrassment and rape...ILLEGAL. "The fact that a pimp or customer gives money to a prostitute for submitting to these acts does not alter the fact that child sexual abuse, rape, and/or battery occurs; it merely redefines these crimes as prostitution." doesnt make sense to me.
That was the first one I saw....

Why doesn't it surprise me that arguments against prostitution don't make sense to you. Of course they don't, you don't really seem to give much of a damn about anybody's political ideas that are not your own.

If you really think that this has any support whatsoever, put it to vote. Submit it. We will see if it passes. Or even makes quorum.

I just love how he uses one quote about something I didnt even mention about. I used other quotes, the one you used you dont even understand.

BAsically what that quote says is legalizing prostitution will happen the same thing that happened after the prohibition of alcohol in RL America. Yes it technically isnt a victimless crime, but many are treated as such.....none of these address anything that we said....just lol.

[Great Azarath]

OOC: The OP apparently wants RL sources. If you're a roleplayer who doesn't like RL sources, don't click the links, just assume they go to IC sources if you want to.

IC:

"Well, personally I go by the principle that there are three kinds of lies: lies, darned lies and statistics. So I am not going to refer to statistics. I find testimonials such as this, [url=[list=]http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071225124119AAudYFT[/list]]this[/url] and this are much more effective than statistics at describing human sexual behaviour (and it probably applies to many other sapient species as well)."

on the first link, she admits she needs help. Not all prostitutes need sex rehab.
on the second one I strongly believe its a lie....If she was so drunk how can she go into so much detail? And if she isn't...well, who( speaking of prostitutes) will go to work drunk?
on the third...I read half of the first paragraph, and he met her already knew her to have sex with her. The question is asked by his wife so this is really irrelevant. Clients don't spend a whole evening with a prostitute like they did.

[Great Azarath]

PRO: "Prostitution should not be a crime. Prostitutes are not committing an inherently harmful act. While the spread of disease and other detriments are possible in the practice of prostitution, criminalization is a sure way of exacerbating rather than addressing such effects. We saw this quite clearly in the time of alcohol prohibition in this country.

...What makes prostitution a 'victimless crime' in the sense that no one is necessarily harmed by it is that there are consenting adults involved."

I completely agree....

Prostitution creates a setting whereby crimes against men, women, and children become a commercial enterprise.... It is an assault when he/she forces a prostitute to engage in sadomasochistic sex scenes. When a pimp compels a prostitute to submit to sexual demands as a condition of employment, it is exploitation, sexual harassment, or rape -- acts that are based on the prostitute's compliance rather than her consent. The fact that a pimp or customer gives money to a prostitute for submitting to these acts does not alter the fact that child sexual abuse, rape, and/or battery occurs; it merely redefines these crimes as prostitution."
Having sex with children is illegal. It will have regardless of what happens to this resolution. This resolution states nothing about pimps. They are illegal now and still will be. Exploitation, sexual harrassment and rape...ILLEGAL. "The fact that a pimp or customer gives money to a prostitute for submitting to these acts does not alter the fact that child sexual abuse, rape, and/or battery occurs; it merely redefines these crimes as prostitution." doesnt make sense to me.
That was the first one I saw....

Who said that Azarite delegate? And what category?

this was in the link you had, for your "proof"

[Dizyntk]

"We are still waiting for your so-called proof, Ambassador. Or do you not have any?"

[Great Azarath]

Why are you avoiding the question? Would you have unprotected sex with a stranger?

"Ahh, so the Ambassador has NO evidence to back up his claims. Just as we thought. He is merely using his own opinions with absolutely no proof to back them. He demands proof of others and it is provided. We demand proof of him and he ignores the request and goes off on a tangent. It is obvious that the Ambassador has absolutely no idea how to properly engage in a political debate,"

I asked the question first. Why should I adhere to your request when you fail to answer mine? I have the proof, in fact it's sitting in my tab. I just want an answer. You have no clue how to properly engage in a political debate, your ignoring my question.

[Separatist Peoples]

"Ahh, so the Ambassador has NO evidence to back up his claims. Just as we thought. He is merely using his own opinions with absolutely no proof to back them. He demands proof of others and it is provided. We demand proof of him and he ignores the request and goes off on a tangent. It is obvious that the Ambassador has absolutely no idea how to properly engage in a political debate,"

I asked the question first. Why should I adhere to your request when you fail to answer mine? I have the proof, in fact it's sitting in my tab. I just want an answer. You have no clue how to properly engage in a political debate, your ignoring my question.

The personal behavior of a member of this council is entirely irrelevant. All you are trying to do is bring in the moral character of an ambassador into this debate. If you have proof, show it, if you do not, then at least have the courtesy to admit it, and stop acting like a 14 year old child who only recently discovered politics...

[Dizyntk]

"As I thought, you have no evidence to back any of your claims. Did you do ANY research before drafting this proposal? Did you just assume we would all think it was a good idea? Well we do not. The very notion that you think any of us would agree to this only goes to prove your naivete, Ambassador."

[Dilange]

Who said that Azarite delegate? And what category?

this was in the link you had, for your "proof"

Yet you proved nothing in our arguments.

[Great Azarath]

Title: Legalizing Prostitution
Category: Human Rights
Strength: Significant
Description:

The World Assembly,

ACKNOWLEDGING that prostitution, one of the oldest and most known professions in existence, is illegal in many member states;

Cool, so is the profession of a thief....yet we aren't legalizing stealing? Why not?

CONCERNED that the criminalization of prostitution prevents prostitutes from adequately protecting themselves from abuse and disease, and that even in member states where prostitution is legal, prostitutes still may not be fully protected under current national laws;

That doesnt matter, many prostitutes are mentally harmed. Here is a real-life quote:

"There were no differences in mental health... or in self-esteem... between the two groups [female prostitutes and females who weren't prostitutes]....

Overall, despite any personal problems arising from the particular nature of their work, these women described as adequate relationships with partners, friends and work colleagues. Two papers have suggested that sex workers have high rates of psychological symptoms; however, both used convenience samples and lacked a comparison group making interpretation of the results difficult. Our results challenge prevailing ideas that sex work and psychiatric morbidity are inevitably associated." Sarah Romans, MD in the Feb. 2001 Australian and New Zealand Journal of Psychiatry article "The Mental and Physical Health of Female Sex Workers: A Comparative Study,"

Would it decrease STDs? Here is another quote:

"The community may accept that some level of prostitution is inevitable. However, that does not mean supporting anything that might result in more brothels and more prostitutes. It certainly does not mean tacit endorsement of a system that could send a wrong message to young women that prostitution is a desirable career option.... Words alone will not keep out the criminal element. Under this legislation [Prostitution Control Bill 2003], prostitution is to be legalised and more illegal brothels will operate, yet there is no indication in the legislation of how the Labor Government plans to ensure that STDs will not spread throughout the community. Simply talking about the dangers of unprotected sex will not stop it....
Condoms are not used 100 per cent of the time in the sex industry because there is a much lower percentage of use by street workers. Street workers have a greater dependence on drugs.... Unsafe practices continue. ...[U]p to 50 per cent of brothel workers are undertaking oral sex without using prophylactics. The figure is quite concerning because STDs can be transmitted in that way." Cheryl Edwardes, LLM, former Attorney General for Western Australia, in the May 6, 2003

CONVINCED that all individuals have a fundamental right to bodily sovereignty that no government can rightly violate;

They do not have the right. Im gonna use quotes throughout this whole thing.

"The argument that regulation of prostitution better protects women in prostitution is deceptive. Prostitution itself is a form of violence against women and a negation of women's fundamental human rights. Studies have shown that women in prostitution, whether in private apartments, hotel rooms, sex clubs, massage parlors, or in large megacenters of prostitution activities, still experience many forms of violence (Raymond et al., 2002). In a male-dominant culture, prostitution denies equality to women by treating the female body as an instrument of commerce." Esohe Aghatise, PhD, Founder and Executive Director of the Associazione Iroko Onlus, wrote in an Oct. 2004 Violence Against Women article titled "Trafficking for Prostitution in Italy"

Is it a freely chosen profession? Highly doubtful:

"A common argument by prostitution advocates is that women and girls make informed and calculated choices about entering into prostitution. They say that the ones who have so chosen should be free to pursue their choice in the name of self-determination and integrity, over their lives and their bodies.
The prostitution lobby wants us to believe that prostitution is female sexual liberation and a way for women to give full expression to their deepest sexual fantasies. These ideas are based on an uncritical acceptance of the old libertarian concept of individual free choice and completely lack a critique of society and an analysis of male power. What they also care to ignore is that the concept of free will requires the existence of several possible options to choose from and the control of the person in making a choice.
...To talk about choice in this context becomes both cruel and meaningless. When we allow the prostitution defenders to blame the victims of prostitution for their victimization, we collaborate with them. Male violence is thus obscured and focus is off the perpetrators.
Instead of talking about prostitution as a choice, we must ask ourselves: If prostitution is a free choice, why is it that it is always the women and girls who have the fewest alternatives who are the ones who end up in prostitution?" Gunilla S. Ekberg, Special Advisor on issues of prostitution and trafficking in women at the Swedish Division for Gender Equality, at the Nov. 5-6 2002 Seminar on the Effects of Legalisation of Prostitution Activities in Stockholm,


Now to discuss a fact you havent brought up. In case you do, the issue of sexual liberation:

"If women enter prostitution for 'sexual liberation,' what is it they need to be liberated from? Are they seeking liberation from a male-imposed double standard of sexuality? Are they seeking liberation from their own moral or religious qualms - preached by mail priests and ministers? What are they seeking liberation to? To do what they want when they want it - or when someone else does? If women were truly free, we would not need to be liberated from anything. The reason women need liberation at all is because males imprison us. To seek escape from a prison cell is liberation, but when women are living in a global patriarchy, we can never escape the cell." Diane Post, JD, in the July 1999 off our backs article "Legalizing Prostitution: A Systematic Rebuttal,"

More later. I am using many RL quotes to disprove many of your theories. If its illegal, oh well.

1- Prostitution is sex of to consent adults, theft is taking something from someone without their consent. See the difference?
2- I looked at the quote and it says there is no difference between mental health which shows it cannot have such a negative physiological effect. Also it protects them from ABUSE AND DISEASE. as you just showed us, they don't need mental support.
3-Would it decrease STDs, of course not. Common sense should tell you that. This resolution has strict regulations on sexual protection
4- Yes it is freely choosen. Being forced is rape and that is illegal.
5- that liberation has nothing to do with this

[Great Azarath]

I have proof and I will put it after you answer. Also I asked this long before proof came in the convo

Just give us the proof, the more you procrastinate....the more I dont think you have evidence.

You fail to realize his reluctance to answer the question because he knows I am correct.

[Astrolinium]

Just give us the proof, the more you procrastinate....the more I dont think you have evidence.

You fail to realize his reluctance to answer the question because he knows I am correct.

Then what, exactly, is your reluctance to provide proof?

[Dizyntk]

This resolution has strict regulations on sexual protection

"That is a lie, Ambassador. This resolution is not strict at all as it offers a gaping loophole around said protection."

[Dizyntk]

You fail to realize his reluctance to answer the question because he knows I am correct.

Then what, exactly, is your reluctance to provide proof?

"He has no proof. He is merely saying he does."

[Great Azarath]

I have proof and I will put it after you answer. Also I asked this long before proof came in the convo

"What I would do is irrelevant to the argument. If you do not have any proof to back up your so-called arguments, just say so. If you do then please provide it. Otherwise stop wasting this Assembly's time with your flawed and childish arguments."

... Still ignoring the question? ANswer it! Would you have unprotected sex with a stranger? I have my proof, I would like you to answer my question first, since I said it first

[Dilange]

HEREBY MANDATES that all member states residing with the World Assembly legalize the human right and business of prostitution.

Prostitution =/= human right. Right to pursue happiness, right to live, right to think = human rights

Prostitutes and member states that reside with the World Assembly must abide to the following statements:
(1) Prostitutes are made fully aware of the health or other specific risk connected to prostitution.

Sweet. Hey Bubbles, there is a slight chance of you getting AIDS. This does what again?

(2) A prostitute has the right to refuse any sexual act.

Already covered by a past resolution

(3) A prostitute has the right to create a contract with his/her/its client agreeing on specific details.

Do you need a contract to buy a hamburger? THis is just stupid.

PROHIBITS the following:
(1) For sexual penetration to happen without some form of sexual protection, unless both sides consent to not using any form of sexual protection.

Conflicts with GAR# 16, especially the first operative clause (the one past definitions)

This resolution RECOMMENDS the following:
(1) That member states provide free or low-cost, high quality condoms and other prophylactics, birth control and STI screenings to prostitutes and others who are at risk of STIs and unwanted pregnancies.

Condoms aren't 100%. People who are afraid of these diseases and child birth will just not have sex.

(2) Prostitutes are involved with organized brothels for better safety.

Here are two quotes:

"Behind the facade of a regulated industry, brothel prostitutes in Nevada are captive in conditions analogous to slavery. Women often are procured for the brothels from other areas by pimps who dump them at the house in order to collect the referral fee. Women report working in shifts commonly as long as 12 hours, even when ill, menstruating or pregnant, with no right to refuse a customer who has requested them or to refuse the sexual act for which he has paid. The dozen or so prostitutes I interviewed said they are expected to pay the brothel room and board and a percentage of their earnings -- sometimes up to 50 percent. They also must pay for mandatory extras such as medical exams, assigned clothing and fines incurred for breaking house rules. And, contrary to the common claim that the brothel will protect women from the dangerous, crazy clients on the streets, rapes and assaults by customers are covered up by the management." Anastasia Volkonsky, JD, Founder and former Project Director of Prevention, Referral, Outreach, Mentoring, and Intervention to End Sexual Exploitation (PROMISE), in the Feb. 27, 1995 Insight on the News article "Legalization the 'Profession' Would Sanction the Abuse,".

"The regulation of prostitution by zoning is a physical manifestation of the same social/psychological stigma that decriminalization advocates allegedly want to avoid. Reflecting the social isolation of those in it, prostitution is often removed from the mainstream. Whether in Turkish genelevs (walled-off multiunit brothel complexes) or in Nevada brothels (ringed with barbed wire or electric fencing), women in state-zoned prostitution are physically isolated and socially rejected by the rest of society." Melissa Farley, PhD, Founding Director of the Prostitution Research and Education, wrote in the Oct. 2004 Violence Against Women journal article "'Bad for the Body, Bad for the Heart:' Prostitution Harms Women Even If Legalized or Decriminalized".

ENCOURAGES individual member states to impose additional protocol or standards that do not conflict with this resolution.

We already have found a loophole in this. You can regulate this out of existence without criminalizing prostitution.


There my argument with proof and everything.

[Great Azarath]

Why are you avoiding the question? Would you have unprotected sex with a stranger?

"Insisting that Her Royal Highness answer such a question is making the debate more personal, which Your Excellency has previously stated is something Your Excellency does not want the debate to become."

...this isnt personal, I am asking him to answer the question and put his self in the place of a prostitute, it has a lot to do with the argument.

[Dizyntk]

"What I would do is irrelevant to the argument. If you do not have any proof to back up your so-called arguments, just say so. If you do then please provide it. Otherwise stop wasting this Assembly's time with your flawed and childish arguments."

... Still ignoring the question? ANswer it! Would you have unprotected sex with a stranger? I have my proof, I would like you to answer my question first, since I said it first

"You still ignore the fact that your question is highly irrelevant. What I would do or not do is not relevant to the argument. And seeing as you have refused to answer any number of questions, I see no good reason to answer this particular one. Just admit that you have no eveidence and we can all move on. And your insistence on this issue just goes to prove your immaturity."

[Great Azarath]

Why doesn't it surprise me that arguments against prostitution don't make sense to you. Of course they don't, you don't really seem to give much of a damn about anybody's political ideas that are not your own.

If you really think that this has any support whatsoever, put it to vote. Submit it. We will see if it passes. Or even makes quorum.

I just love how he uses one quote about something I didnt even mention about. I used other quotes, the one you used you dont even understand.

BAsically what that quote says is legalizing prostitution will happen the same thing that happened after the prohibition of alcohol in RL America. Yes it technically isnt a victimless crime, but many are treated as such.....none of these address anything that we said....just lol.

You mentioned it, it was on the link of yours.

[Dilange]

1- Prostitution is sex of to consent adults, theft is taking something from someone without their consent. See the difference?

Not by the reasoning you use. You use it as an older profession, while thieves are about the same age. I never mentioned anything about consent at all.

2- I looked at the quote and it says there is no difference between mental health which shows it cannot have such a negative physiological effect. Also it protects them from ABUSE AND DISEASE. as you just showed us, they don't need mental support.

Oh sorry let me highlight it for you.

...prevailing ideas that sex work and psychiatric morbidity are inevitably associated.

3-Would it decrease STDs, of course not. Common sense should tell you that. This resolution has strict regulations on sexual protection

I dont know. Your proposal mentions that through the use of birth control and condoms that it will be safe.

4- Yes it is freely choosen. Being forced is rape and that is illegal.

Youre not getting the quote....

5- that liberation has nothing to do with this

[/quote]

I know that, I was just using it in case you used that bullshit arguement.

[Great Azarath]

"We are still waiting for your so-called proof, Ambassador. Or do you not have any?"

I have it, I am still waiting for an answer

[Alqania]

OOC: The OP apparently wants RL sources. If you're a roleplayer who doesn't like RL sources, don't click the links, just assume they go to IC sources if you want to.

IC:

"Well, personally I go by the principle that there are three kinds of lies: lies, darned lies and statistics. So I am not going to refer to statistics. I find testimonials such as this, [url=[list=]http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071225124119AAudYFT[/list]]this[/url] and this are much more effective than statistics at describing human sexual behaviour (and it probably applies to many other sapient species as well)."

on the first link, she admits she needs help. Not all prostitutes need sex rehab.
on the second one I strongly believe its a lie....If she was so drunk how can she go into so much detail? And if she isn't...well, who( speaking of prostitutes) will go to work drunk?
on the third...I read half of the first paragraph, and he met her already knew her to have sex with her. The question is asked by his wife so this is really irrelevant. Clients don't spend a whole evening with a prostitute like they did.

"Your Excellency asked for proof that people are having unprotected sex with strangers. Your Excellency said nothing about the proof being about unprotected sex with strange prostitutes/clients. Your Excellency got the proof Your Excellency asked for."

[Dilange]

I just love how he uses one quote about something I didnt even mention about. I used other quotes, the one you used you dont even understand.

BAsically what that quote says is legalizing prostitution will happen the same thing that happened after the prohibition of alcohol in RL America. Yes it technically isnt a victimless crime, but many are treated as such.....none of these address anything that we said....just lol.

You mentioned it, it was on the link of yours.

I know that. You used a quote that had nothing to do with our arguments and that you didnt understand.

[Great Azarath]

I asked the question first. Why should I adhere to your request when you fail to answer mine? I have the proof, in fact it's sitting in my tab. I just want an answer. You have no clue how to properly engage in a political debate, your ignoring my question.

The personal behavior of a member of this council is entirely irrelevant. All you are trying to do is bring in the moral character of an ambassador into this debate. If you have proof, show it, if you do not, then at least have the courtesy to admit it, and stop acting like a 14 year old child who only recently discovered politics...

No, thats not what I am trying to do. I want an answer and you want proof. Once he answers you will get proof. The rest of that paragraph is irrelevent

[Great Azarath]

"As I thought, you have no evidence to back any of your claims. Did you do ANY research before drafting this proposal? Did you just assume we would all think it was a good idea? Well we do not. The very notion that you think any of us would agree to this only goes to prove your naivete, Ambassador."

Your still ignoring my question. ANSWER IT! What would you do????/