(ABANDONED) The Economic Democracy Act

[Separatist Peoples]

And several drafts later, another Mod informed you that it was a bad idea...

The mod post opposes the proposal but doesn't say it is illegal.

I didn't say he said it was illegal. In fact, I deliberately avoided the use of that word, mostly because it is legal.

[Free Pangea]

The proposal goes against a mod's politics but I don't see why this is significant.

[Moronist Decisions]

The proposal goes against a mod's politics but I don't see why this is significant.

Actually, true, but that said - the chance of this passing appears pretty low. If you think it's got a chance - why don't you submit it? (assuming you think it's legal)

[Separatist Peoples]

The proposal goes against a mod's politics but I don't see why this is significant.

Actually, true, but that said - the chance of this passing appears pretty low. If you think it's got a chance - why don't you submit it? (assuming you think it's legal)

That was the point of my post, actually.

[Free Pangea]

I am not going to submit it myself unless the author requests it. I agree that the chance of it passing is low (not that low and definitely not impossible) but still I support it and would like to see it submitted.

[The Grand Network]

I think there's only a handful of people who support this. Please, save us time and don't submit it, it won't go anywhere.

[Flibbleites]

The proposal goes against a mod's politics but I don't see why this is significant.

OOC: Whoa there, the post in question was made In Character, just because one (or more) of my characters oppose something doesn't mean that I the player oppose it.

Although in this case I actually do agree with my character's assessment of this idea.

[Cerberion]

I think there's only a handful of people who support this. Please, save us time and don't submit it, it won't go anywhere.

Well, I entirely agree that it won't go anywhere but I'd rather they waste our time submitting it. It's better for such things to be seen to fail or succeed on a global vote.

Otherwise we'll never hear the end of "It would have passed, ya know."

[Mytandium]

It is good that you recognize that Democracy is a good thing!

Here in Mytandium, we have recently voted to confiscate 100% of all properties owned by "The Rich", for the benefit of the Majority.

We wholeheartedly support your decision, as it will make all countries more similar to True Democracy.

Do not trouble yourself with those who oppose you, they fail to realize that democracy is the only way!! They cry out about "individual liberties" while failing to realize the greater good! If they embraced democracy like any Moral Society, they would know that such liberties were to only exist with majority consent.

Mytandium already has this system. We have Democratic systems in every level of society. In order to do anything, there must be a vote on it.

This inevitably leads to the Majority coming out on top!!! The moral values, the greater good, and the wealth goes to that Majority and society as a whole thrives!!

The ignorant one's rant about individual rights and the rights of the minority, but they are blind! Do not heed them! Minorities are not important when compared to the Majority, for the Majority is greater, and thus has more worth!!

This bill is a great thing! It shall allow the Majority to truly control all aspects of work, and will set the Majority over the petty minorities!!

[Mytandium]

Ok...Ill make it once every five years and the workers tenure maybe lets say...ten years? NO Great Nepal...im furthering economic democracy.

That you are! And soon the minorities will crumble and fall as the Democratic Majority rises to Power!! Perhaps we could try to pass legislature to execute these fools, and they can go the ways of the heretical Socrates! The Greater Good would only be served if we did so!

[Morlago]

OOC: Oh god....

IC: The thing is that if this proposal were passed, no one would bother buying shares and investing in companies because owning shares really don't really mean anything. It would mean you simply get dividends and that probably won't exist either when you allow toilet cleaners to participate in the decision-making of the business. The whole purpose of buying shares and owning the company is that YOU can have a chance to direct the way it runs. Businesses will collapse if this law were passed as there would be no motivation to invest in companies and a drastic decrease in capital would occur. The entire private sector will be obliterated.

[Free Pangea]

How would this destroy the private sector?
I would think if the companies were run mostly by the workers more people would want to work there thus boosting them. I think you can figure out the details.
Another thing: workers know what the problems are since they're on the front line and see everything. Democracy in the work place therefore increases efficiency.

[Eternal Yerushalayim]

More people would want to work??? Yes, and where do people get the initial capital?

[Great Nepal]

How would this destroy the private sector?

Because, no fucking one will buy shares in the company. No Shares = No investments = No capital = No money = No company.

I would think if the companies were run mostly by the workers more people would want to work there thus boosting them. I think you can figure out the details.

And, no investor will invest in the company so the balance sheet of the company goes dry. And, since there is no money, there is no stock, and therefore there is no production.

Another thing: workers know what the problems are since they're on the front line and see everything. Democracy in the work place therefore increases efficiency.

Except the fact that company doesn't run without money.

[Morlago]

How would this destroy the private sector?

Because, no fucking one will buy shares in the company. No Shares = No investments = No capital = No money = No company.

I would think if the companies were run mostly by the workers more people would want to work there thus boosting them. I think you can figure out the details.

And, no investor will invest in the company so the balance sheet of the company goes dry. And, since there is no money, there is no stock, and therefore there is no production.

Another thing: workers know what the problems are since they're on the front line and see everything. Democracy in the work place therefore increases efficiency.

Except the fact that company doesn't run without money.

More people would want to work??? Yes, and where do people get the initial capital?

OOC: Thank you! I've been waiting for people help me get my point through to those... nations.

Plus, there is a big loophole.

That all executive boardsof publicly-traded corporate entities must be elected by both workers and shareholders in all corporations across the WA.

If all business converted to privately held companies, this bill will be useless. And I'm sure there will be many who will be willing to do that if this proposal is passed.

[-Newfoundland-]

We oppose this proposal wholeheartedly for its blatant and micromanaging infringement on the rights of private companies to operate under the structure of their own choosing.

[Droskianishk]

How would this destroy the private sector?
I would think if the companies were run mostly by the workers more people would want to work there thus boosting them. I think you can figure out the details.
Another thing: workers know what the problems are since they're on the front line and see everything. Democracy in the work place therefore increases efficiency.

This has already been lambasted to great effect by several others, but I guess those workers are willing to work for nothing or even take a loss in the beginning of a company in order to build up a base of capital? Thats why the current system of stock purchases is so important, it allows a vast group of individuals to pool their resources in order to start a company so that if a company goes under they will only be losing what they have put in (something lost in the margins and not as a huge portion of their earnings or personal wealth), whereas if you have a group of workers (probably uneducated) essentially owning the company , and new employees coming in able to seize part of the company (heavily dissuading any new investors in putting their capital into a project when it can simply be seized from them... essentially the same thing as nationalization) those workers starting the company will have to put all their earning capacity into a company and when it goes under (due to a lack of capital and management) they will lose absolutely everything.

As to your last point, companies (Toyota) already do that, if a worker has a good idea and puts it forward they recieve a bonus. This method has worked very well for the companies involved, but forcing a company to give all workers (no matter how stupid or lacking in initiative they are) ownership and part of the controlling interest in a company is to doom it to failure.

[The Grand Network]

It is good that you recognize that Democracy is a good thing!

Here in Mytandium, we have recently voted to confiscate 100% of all properties owned by "The Rich", for the benefit of the Majority.

We wholeheartedly support your decision, as it will make all countries more similar to True Democracy.

Do not trouble yourself with those who oppose you, they fail to realize that democracy is the only way!! They cry out about "individual liberties" while failing to realize the greater good! If they embraced democracy like any Moral Society, they would know that such liberties were to only exist with majority consent.

Mytandium already has this system. We have Democratic systems in every level of society. In order to do anything, there must be a vote on it.

This inevitably leads to the Majority coming out on top!!! The moral values, the greater good, and the wealth goes to that Majority and society as a whole thrives!!

The ignorant one's rant about individual rights and the rights of the minority, but they are blind! Do not heed them! Minorities are not important when compared to the Majority, for the Majority is greater, and thus has more worth!!

This bill is a great thing! It shall allow the Majority to truly control all aspects of work, and will set the Majority over the petty minorities!!

Too many exclamation points. Anyway, you're not really supposed to be bashing people's views in this thread, your supposed to be trying to prove or disprove the proposal...

[Volkaran]

I think one of your biggest problems is that many people are calling the bill many things and all you are doing is saying "I didn't mean that, i meant this" without clarifying or editing the bill to be more specific and concise.

I will lend no support to this bill.

[Morlago]

Why are we still wasting our time debating about this bill? Clearly it has been proven time and time again to be useless and has been ripped to shreds by counterarguments that there really is no point to continue posting.

[Flibbleites]

Why are we still wasting our time debating about this bill? Clearly it has been proven time and time again to be useless and has been ripped to shreds by counterarguments that there really is no point to continue posting.

Because the author is continuing to waste his time trying to push it down our throats.

Bob Flibble
WA Representative

[Free Pangea]

If they are starting a new company they can get a loan.
If this is being implemented in an existing company I don't see the problem.
People are likely to buy shares from a company that has no issues with employment.

[Separatist Peoples]

If they are starting a new company they can get a loan.
If this is being implemented in an existing company I don't see the problem.
People are likely to buy shares from a company that has no issues with employment.

Except it bars companies from operating as they see fit

And people buy shares from companies that make profit. For the vast majority of the shareholding population, employment issues are not a factor.

[Free Pangea]

Democratic companies are fully able to make money. It will actually work better since workers actually know what needs to be improved (corporate executives are more likely to make bad decisions since they don't know what happens on the "front line.")

[Separatist Peoples]

Democratic companies are fully able to make money. It will actually work better since workers actually know what needs to be improved (corporate executives are more likely to make bad decisions since they don't know what happens on the "front line.")

If what needs to be improved is a production-line concern, then yes. What about decisions about mergers, branch managing, or other high-end economic issues? Issues that require people with economics and business study experience?