(ABANDONED) The Economic Democracy Act

[Separatist Peoples]

Hey...ive got an example...a citizen pays taxes to the gov., he then has a say in how his dollars are spent through reps...worker sells labor to business...he gets to decide through reps what affects his labor...similar principles. No it doesnt end there...the worker is a part of the business...not some mean to an ends.

Except the worker is absolutely a means to an end. Without the worker, the work isn't done. That's why they are compensated for their time and effort and expertise with money. To assume that they deserve more is absolutely false. And citizens do not get any direct say in how the dollars are spent. The best they can do is elect a representative who claims to have the same beliefs they do. Or run for office themselves. The first system is not direct, but it happens to be how most of the world operates. The second one is analogous to the claim that workers who want power can start their own businesses.

[Vocatus]

Hey...ive got an example...a citizen pays taxes to the gov., he then has a say in how his dollars are spent through reps...worker sells labor to business...he gets to decide through reps what affects his labor...similar principles. No it doesnt end there...the worker is a part of the business...not some mean to an ends.

Those situations are not even remotely similar.

They would be if you replaced 'worker' with 'shareholder'. Shareholders pay for the privilege of being part of a business and the ability to make its decisions. Workers are paid to do their jobs.

But we see that though we both understand each others' positions, we clearly don't agree.

[The Left-Libertarian Hippies]

My nation has referendum, recall and delegates so we dont work that way...And Im glad Vocatus has realized that I understand what hes saying (im not an idiot), but yes we dont agree...

[The Left-Libertarian Hippies]

And seperatist peoples I didnt define any form of government, you just assumed the rep democracy is bureacratic and unfair.

[Separatist Peoples]

My nation has referendum, recall and delegates so we dont work that way...And Im glad Vocatus has realized that I understand what hes saying (im not an idiot), but yes we dont agree...

YOUR nation has it. My nation does not. I'm sure that Vocatus does not have that policy. Nor do many nations in the WA. My point being this: What works for your nation doesn't necessarily work for other nations. If you want to impose this in your nation, do it. But don't force it down our throats, especially when it would be destructive to the economies of many free-market and corporatist nations. This is not an internationally viable issue. Its barely a national issue. Its a company issue.

[Vocatus]

In that case there appears to be little to say except that given the overwhelming opposition this draft has faced, we believe that if brought to a vote it would fail by a large margin.

Therefore we suggest you simply abandon it, but should you choose to go ahead and propose it, we won't really feel intimidated by it.

[Separatist Peoples]

And seperatist peoples I didnt define any form of government, you just assumed the rep democracy is bureacratic and unfair.

Your system just begs for extra red-tape and bureaucracy by advocating representatives and a major democratic change in what is usually a hierarchical chain of command. That automatically makes the bureaucracy a bad idea.

[Vocatus]

And seperatist peoples I didnt define any form of government, you just assumed the rep democracy is bureacratic and unfair.

Your system just begs for extra red-tape and bureaucracy by advocating representatives and a major democratic change in what is usually a hierarchical chain of command. That automatically makes the bureaucracy a bad idea.

We take offense to that statement, given that our official government system is Bureaucracy.

[Separatist Peoples]

Your system just begs for extra red-tape and bureaucracy by advocating representatives and a major democratic change in what is usually a hierarchical chain of command. That automatically makes the bureaucracy a bad idea.

We take offense to that statement, given that our official government system is Bureaucracy.

I didn't claim it was a bad idea in general, or that it didn't have its uses. I say that in regards to the general concept of the top-down business hierarchy. No offense was meant.

[The Left-Libertarian Hippies]

Not always is some bureacracy bad by the way...

[Separatist Peoples]

Not always is some bureacracy bad by the way...

No, but too much is crippling. A lack of bureaucracy is why the private sector is able to compete and do so much better then the public sector in many, many areas. Your system advocates the exact opposite.

Yes, bureaucracy has its uses, but much like alcohol, it needs to be handled in moderation.

[The Left-Libertarian Hippies]

haha...i like the much like alcohol... but, really you think the private sector isnt bureaucratic. Please! How are corporations with one owner telling a million little mininons what to do through a complicated network of privatized hierarchy not bureacratic...its way more unjust than you might think...(plus, I do agree that the public sector can be a painful bureacratic mess, but they are actually about the same on the bureacracy level).

[Separatist Peoples]

haha...i like the much like alcohol... but, really you think the private sector isnt bureaucratic. Please! How are corporations with one owner telling a million little mininons what to do through a complicated network of privatized hierarchy not bureacratic...its way more unjust than you might think...(plus, I do agree that the public sector can be a painful bureacratic mess, but they are actually about the same on the bureacracy level).

I believe that in most businesses that are NOT regulated, there is far less bureaucracy. Yes, there is always bureaucracy. But what you are petitioning for is the opposite extreme: Too much.

I'd like to compare the DMV in any state to the inner workings of, say, Ford. I believe you'll find more bureaucracy in the public sector almost every time.

In fact, I believe that in the CDSP, we have some of the lowest bureaucracy levels for multinational conglomerates. Helps that the government doesn't generally regulate business.

[Vocatus]

haha...i like the much like alcohol... but, really you think the private sector isnt bureaucratic. Please! How are corporations with one owner telling a million little mininons what to do through a complicated network of privatized hierarchy not bureacratic...its way more unjust than you might think...(plus, I do agree that the public sector can be a painful bureacratic mess, but they are actually about the same on the bureacracy level).

I believe that in most businesses that are NOT regulated, there is far less bureaucracy. Yes, there is always bureaucracy. But what you are petitioning for is the opposite extreme: Too much.

In fact, I believe that in the CDSP, we have some of the lowest bureaucracy levels for multinational conglomerates. Helps that the government doesn't generally regulate business.

Isn't it nice when two nations from the exact opposite ends of the bureaucratic regulation spectrum can come together to shoot down this proposal?

[The Grand Network]

I am not giving total and unrestricted power to workers...I dont understand how you all think that in your "perfect" economies that through "social darwinism" most people can somehow reach the top of the economic ladder...that's not logical and it is called by many people (even capitalists) "market fundementalism"...the market isnt perfect and nice to those who work hard...wonder why we have social programs, unions, and other institutions to help the working class? Working hard isnt a sure fire way to succeed. If it was, places in the real world like Hong Kong, Chile, and Somalia (nations with loose or no labor laws) would be beautiful paradises where hard workers succeed (NOT!)...in these countries high inequality, high prices, high violence, oligarchy, and limited economic competition, and no way to empower workers to succeed have left the hard workers (many of them) helpless and powerless...same thing goes in nation states...the market cant be protected if you leave it to kill itself through no limits...

Hong Kong's a city state controlled by China, Somalia's basicly in anarchy for reason's unrelated to its economy, and Chile is a developing nation. I fail to see how both Hong Kong and Chile are places of high violence and oligarchy for reasons related to the economy.

[The Left-Libertarian Hippies]

No, deregulation doesnt help when your workers are bossed around, allowed little unionization, forced into a system of an immoral economic caste...just saying all the things I know of from capitalist nations...maybe yours is different who knows? What is your civil rights and political freedoms rankings? I think you are an extreme capitalist and vocatus is an authoritarian socialist...but I would like us even if we disagree to have some respect and friendship. Um...China only gives military protection to Hong Kong...other than that it is basically independent...chile is one of the most developed nations in South America and Somalia shows why economic and political anarchy doesnt work.

[Separatist Peoples]

I believe that in most businesses that are NOT regulated, there is far less bureaucracy. Yes, there is always bureaucracy. But what you are petitioning for is the opposite extreme: Too much.

In fact, I believe that in the CDSP, we have some of the lowest bureaucracy levels for multinational conglomerates. Helps that the government doesn't generally regulate business.

Isn't it nice when two nations from the exact opposite ends of the bureaucratic regulation spectrum can come together to shoot down this proposal?

In fact, I view it as the WA working.I welcome the opportunity to share opinions and debate in a friendly manner. The fact that we can work together is international cooperation at its best, in my eyes. I would say that either end of the economic spectrum has its benefits and its problems. I have no issues with the far-left, or even central left, economic policies. The problem I have is when those policies are forced upon others. Thus my underlying argument: Not an international issue.

[The Left-Libertarian Hippies]

Well thats ur opinion seperatist peoples..., but if we have unfair workplace relations all around the WA then it becomes an international issue.

[Separatist Peoples]

No, deregulation doesnt help when your workers are bossed around, allowed little unionization, forced into a system of an immoral economic caste...just saying all the things I know of from capitalist nations...maybe yours is different who knows? What is your civil rights and political freedoms rankings? I think you are an extreme capitalist and vocatus is an authoritarian socialist...but I would like us even if we disagree to have some respect and friendship. Um...China only gives military protection to Hong Kong...other than that it is basically independent...chile is one of the most developed nations in South America and Somalia shows why economic and political anarchy doesnt work.

My civil rights and political freedoms are just fine, thank you, though our civil rights did take an unexpected hit yesterday...regardless, the fact that nations on either end of the spectrum disagree has to be telling to you. As for the workers and their rights, trust me, the right to unionize is very well protected. Just take a look at some passed resolutions. The right to form unions is preserved by a WA resolution. And unions are MORE then enough to protect workers. They are enough to shut down entire business sectors. Why workers need any more protection at the international level is beyond me.

[Separatist Peoples]

Well thats ur opinion seperatist peoples..., but if we have unfair workplace relations all around the WA then it becomes an international issue.

Your definition of unfair is just as biased as mine. However, that doesn't change the fact that these issues occur below the national level, and certainly not at the international level. They occur within companies. There are no genocides. There are no barbaric violations of natural human rights. There are no serious threats to civilization.

[The Left-Libertarian Hippies]

Thats your problem Seperatist, you dislike unions (and other WA) proposals already, because they are against your ideology...and plus Vocatus seems like an extreme-social democrat, not a democratic socialist like me. He wants a giant state, you want a giant private sector, I personally want neither... Genocides would be a security counicl issue (if they happen in a specific nation)...this is a serious threat to workers...and I have socialist and non-socialist colleagues who agree.

[The Grand Network]

No, deregulation doesnt help when your workers are bossed around, allowed little unionization, forced into a system of an immoral economic caste...just saying all the things I know of from capitalist nations...maybe yours is different who knows? What is your civil rights and political freedoms rankings? I think you are an extreme capitalist and vocatus is an authoritarian socialist...but I would like us even if we disagree to have some respect and friendship. Um...China only gives military protection to Hong Kong...other than that it is basically independent...chile is one of the most developed nations in South America and Somalia shows why economic and political anarchy doesnt work.

This is really just a puppet where I'm trying to be as hardcore-dictator as possible, don't judge my economic views by this nation please.

Somalia's anarchy has nothing to do with its economic policy. It's a failed state because of its civil strife between the competing warlords. As you said, Chile is one of the most developed nations in South America, thanks to the kind of capitalism you seem to be trying to downplay. Hong Kong uses the same free-market economics and look at it; it's a gem among the many failed communists states of Asia, and economic and trade center of the world.

[The Left-Libertarian Hippies]

Hong Kong is highly unequal and has a poor system of labor and governmental standards...its turning into a caste system and its very corrupt...better than the communists (so-called) but definately, definately not good..

[Vocatus]

Thats your problem Seperatist, you dislike unions (and other WA) proposals already, because they are against your ideology...and plus Vocatus seems like an extreme-social democrat, not a democratic socialist like me. He wants a giant state, you want a giant private sector, I personally want neither... Genocides would be a security counicl issue (if they happen in a specific nation)...this is a serious threat to workers...and I have socialist and non-socialist colleagues who agree.

I think the issue is that very few people hold the same views as yourself, meaning this proposal would be unlikely to pass even if it were a good idea (which we respectfully submit it is not).

[Separatist Peoples]

Thats your problem Seperatist, you dislike unions (and other WA) proposals already, because they are against your ideology...and plus Vocatus seems like an extreme-social democrat, not a democratic socialist like me. He wants a giant state, you want a giant private sector, I personally want neither... Genocides would be a security counicl issue (if they happen in a specific nation)...this is a serious threat to workers...and I have socialist and non-socialist colleagues who agree.

I actually am far from anti-WA. I believe there are such things as international issues, and that they need to be handled by international bodies. However, I believe that the limit should remain at international issues, and not sink into national or regional issues. I do not dislike unions, they are important to avoid the formation of monopolies, thank you. I dont want to see a giant private sector. I enjoy working alongside communists and socialists as much as I like fascists, anarchists, ultra-capitalists, and federalists. However, I firmly draw the line at allowing the WA to overstep it's boundaries. The goal of the WA is for the greater good, and this only assists some nations, certainly not enough to make a greater good.

Genocides are NOT a security council. There are GA resolutions against genocide, they are, generally, a GA issue then, though the SC will condemn nations that engage in these actions. This is not a serious threat to workers who actively and intelligently pursue their current legal rights, such as unionization pressure and legal action against the business as a whole.