(ABANDONED) The Economic Democracy Act

[The Left-Libertarian Hippies]

Ceberions's...

[Grays Harbor]

REALIZING that many workers are powerless to determine the actions and decisions made in their enterprises.

They work there, they don't own it. In business, everybody has a specific function. Managers manage and direct. Workers produce according to their skills.

FEARING that this unequal distribution of power will hurt the economies of the nations of the World Assembly.

Unsubstantiated twaddle. We would like to see some evidence as to how not having the maintenance staff involved in corporate decisions is harmful to an economy.

UNDERSTANDING that economic democracy is an international issue that demands attention.

Wrong. It is not an international issue. It is barely a local issue.

ALL enterprises must have democratically elected workers' councils that vote alongside business owners on how a business is managed.

We do not believe this to be necessary to the running of a business. If workers want a say in how a business is run, they can buy stock and become shareholders. We do not require mandated "workers councils". Managers are hired to manage. Workers are hired to build. Two different skill sets.

ALL business owners have the right to veto a workers' council's proposals or decisions if a workers' council's decisions if these decisions:

Violate market principles of supply and demand.
Bankrupt the business.
Violate the rights of fellow workers or managers.

The only part that has even the slightest bit of common sense.

These laws will be enforced to fullest extent of the power of the World Assembly and of individual national law.

Unnecessary. If a resolution is passed, it becomes law. Having a special section saying "this is law" is rather redundant.

[Cerberion]

ALL enterprises must have democratically elected workers' councils that vote alongside business owners on how a business is managed.

I have an unskilled worker named Pat in my semi conductor division of Cerbtech industries. His job is to pack the completed run of chips into a box and put the box on the delivery truck. You would now have Pat take his place in the board room and try to comprehend the global trend in semi-conductor sales, perhaps whether we should move from a 70nm die to a 65nm die? You expect him to a) understand global markets and b) have a clue what's good for the business?

Are you seriously suggesting someone as smart as Pete the mushroom here...
Pete says ""

... thanks Pete, would have the intelligence and insight on how to run a billion taco a year industry?


Madness. Pure, unadulterated madness.

The Holy Cermon T. Dawg
Voice of the House of Cerberion
Secundus of the 24th Day Dawgists

[The Left-Libertarian Hippies]

I think I should add something about the education of workers on business management and giving them the knowledge they need to make the right decisions...I said if workers make unreasonable decisions they can be vetoed (under a regulated process) made you werent reading...

[The Left-Libertarian Hippies]

This is not unsustainable either... workers should be able to direct production alongside their "managers". This system worked well in Venezuela and other parts of South America, plus it worked in Anarchist Spain in the 1930s...this is definately not stupid or unsustainable...quite the reverse...im expanding economic rights for all people, I think we should consider that (capitalist, socialist, whatever) to be a good thing.

[Morlago]

I think I should add something about the education of workers on business management and giving them the knowledge they need to make the right decisions...I said if workers make unreasonable decisions they can be vetoed (under a regulated process) made you werent reading...

Well, what constitutes an unreasonable decision? You failed to clarify that in your proposal. Plus, the education of the workers is beside the point. Workers are employed to work, managers and directors are employed to manage and direct the workers. If you are to make the workers manage and direct, the entire chain of command disappears and businesses will become unproductive and collapse. You are not expanding the economic rights of all people, you are destroying the very purpose of employees and the rights of owners.

[Separatist Peoples]

This is not unsustainable either... workers should be able to direct production alongside their "managers". This system worked well in Venezuela and other parts of South America, plus it worked in Anarchist Spain in the 1930s...this is definately not stupid or unsustainable...quite the reverse...im expanding economic rights for all people, I think we should consider that (capitalist, socialist, whatever) to be a good thing.

How is having an unqualified laborer having a hand in decision-making at the higher levels in any way a good thing? When you can argue that point, I'll support this.

And as for the regions you mentioned, forgive me if I'm not overly enthusiastic to embrace your idea given the citations you've offered...

[The Left-Libertarian Hippies]

Yes I did clarify...i said if their proposals violated market principles of supply and demand, bankrupted the business, or violated the rights of fellow workers and employees that those could be vetoed. The chain of command is not gone, it is being made fair and just by this proposal...

[Separatist Peoples]

Yes I did clarify...i said if their proposals violated market principles of supply and demand, bankrupted the business, or violated the rights of fellow workers and employees that those could be vetoed. The chain of command is not gone, it is being made fair and just by this proposal...

How is it fair to force businesses to allow unqualified workers to make decisions that are so far outside of their pay grade it hurts? Workers are hired to work. Managers are hired to manage. Two COMPLETELY different skill sets, and you want to mix them up? How is that fair at all? All it does is hurt the business.

[The Left-Libertarian Hippies]

Well many of those industries in Anarchist Spain continue today to thrive. One of Spain's largest industries and (most productive) is ran this way... seperatist peoples, you arent explaining how it could hurt business...and no they are not completely different...workers and managers generally have similar skills...how do u think workers become managers? Its not like a sick economic caste system...

[Separatist Peoples]

Well many of those industries in Anarchist Spain continue today to thrive. One of Spain's largest industries and (most productive) is ran this way... seperatist peoples, you arent explaining how it could hurt business...and no they are not completely different...workers and managers generally have similar skills...how do u think workers become managers? Its not like a sick economic caste system...

There is a huge difference between being a foreman and being a business executive. Uninformed decisions are going to hurt businesses, and that's what you're going to get when you allow welders and box-movers to make administrative decisions about merging, production, shipping, etc.

There is a reason companies will hire out to get advertising, production, transportation, business experts.

[Morlago]

Yes I did clarify...i said if their proposals violated market principles of supply and demand, bankrupted the business, or violated the rights of fellow workers and employees that those could be vetoed. The chain of command is not gone, it is being made fair and just by this proposal...

The chain of command is gone. By allowing workers to have access to the management of the business, the workers will practically have the same amount of authority as the managers and directors. Regarding your definitions, that is not in any sense clarified. Bankrupted the business, fine. Valid point. Violated market principles of supply and demand, fine, but violating the rights of fellow workers and employees needs clarification. What are the rights of workers and employees? Do they include only the ones offered by law, or including extra ones provided by the business? Would this mean that the directors can veto (however unlikely) something as simple as not having a customary pay rise? Also, there are other situations where the directors are not allowed to veto decisions that have a big impact on the business. For example, this can be used as a tool to legally introduce unreasonable rights of workers (e.g. working hours must be cut down by 1/3). Would this count as an unreasonable decision? If not, this will definitely affect the business hugely and the owner a large portion of their profit. Plus, you have not solved the problem of the business failing. This whole process of discussing and debating can go on for quite a long time, as the workers can filibuster, and would cause major problems to the productivity of the business. Years can be spent on deciding a small issue such as the construction of a new washroom.

[Vocatus]

What economic rights do you keep on prattling about? Under most economies workers have the right to sell labor to whom they wish and be compensated for it under the conditions set by the government. That's it. The worker owns the labor. The owners/shareholders own the business. They purchase the worker's labor in the same way they purchase any other inputs for the final products. If we allow those who sell their labor to the business to run it, shall we extend the same right to those who sell other things? Should the company supplying an office with staples have input into how that office is run? Should farmers have a say in the management of every company that buys their grain?

In short, this is ridiculous on its face. Unless you can show us concrete, compelling arrangement why the contractual relationship between those who sell labor and those who buy it should be different from any other such relationship, this is not worth considering. Spouting platitudes about economic rights won't do it.

[The Left-Libertarian Hippies]

OK...Im going for a third draft of this proposal...I researched more information on industrial democracy and I think we can get this to work in all nations...(btw...economic (industrial) democracy is shown to increase productivity and worker satisfaction) and Toyota and many successful German companies are run through a system of participatory and democratic councils that work with managers and unions. (Yes, unions are different from workers' councils).

[Cerberion]

I think I should add something about the education of workers on business management and giving them the knowledge they need to make the right decisions...I said if workers make unreasonable decisions they can be vetoed (under a regulated process) made you werent reading... :eyebrow:

Actually I read the whole thing. It's unreasonable to train a meat packer to sit on the board of directors. The executive Director who spent 20 years working his way up through middle management and went to school for 7 years of further education is not going to be able to run a company efficiently if every five seconds he's being asked to explain what the hell "Standard Deviation from our business growth model" means.

You hire meat packers to pack meat. They need to know that the meat is going to keep coming. The directors are hired to direct, and they need to know the meat packer is going to keep cutting the meat they are bringing into the facility.

That's the relationship, and that's where it should end.

We're not in some commune here growing lentils where someone shovels the cow poo and someone else cooks the lentils.
We're talking about massive businesses where each skill set is filled based on the requirement of that position.

Your eutopian dream of everyone being as smart as each other and everyone being able to communicate and get along is wonderful. Karl Marx would have loved you for it.

My nation is not into such socialist dogma thanks.


Forgive me if my nation is more sceptical.

[The Left-Libertarian Hippies]

The Economic Democracy Act

Category: Furtherment of Democracy

REALIZING that economic democracy has been shown to promote productivity and economic growth.
UNDERSTANDING that this is an international socio-economic issue that demands the attention of WA member states.
DEMANDING that workers be given more rights in the workplace.

This act hereby declares,

That all executive boards must be elected by both workers and shareholders in all corporations across the WA.
Half of an executive board will be elected by workers, half will be elected by shareholders. Both sides will have an equal amount of power in the voting process.
Half of the board will be made up of workers (and managers) and the other half will be made up of shareholders.
Both workers and shareholders will have the right to recall members of the executive board, if at least 60 percent of a companies workers and shareholders support a recall.
Workers have the right to direct production and produce budgets and produce other proposals under the supervision of an executive board.
This board can veto workers' proposals if the board has at least 60 percent of members in disagreement with a workers' proposal.

[Separatist Peoples]

The Economic Democracy Act

Category: Furtherment of Democracy

REALIZING that economic democracy has been shown to promote productivity and economic growth.
UNDERSTANDING that this is an international socio-economic issue that demands the attention of WA member states.
DEMANDING that workers be given more rights in the workplace.

This act hereby declares,

That all executive boards must be elected by both workers and shareholders in all corporations across the WA.
Half of an executive board will be elected by workers, half will be elected by shareholders. Both sides will have an equal amount of power in the voting process.
Half of the board will be made up of workers (and managers) and the other half will be made up of shareholders.
Both workers and shareholders will have the right to recall members of the executive board, if at least 60 percent of a companies workers and shareholders support a recall.
Workers have the right to direct production and produce budgets and produce other proposals under the supervision of an executive board.
This board can veto workers' proposals if the board has at least 60 percent of members in disagreement with a workers' proposal.

Ok, workers have PLENTY of rights in the workplace, especially since nations can't dissolve unions. This concept is totally unworkable. Its a blanket micromanaging bill that takes one-size-fits-all and takes it to the extreme. All this does is take the executive power away from the owners of the business and give it to the general public, which, to me, sounds very much like socialism.

[The Left-Libertarian Hippies]

Um no...this isnt socialism...this type of system has definately been used in capitalist countries... (germany, japan, sweden)...I know you dont like it and since you are an extreme capitalist I doubt ever like it, I am wondering if it's ready to submit or not...do u think there are things I should change? (from a legal perspective...this is my first piece of legislation in the WA).

[Separatist Peoples]

Um no...this isnt socialism...this type of system has definately been used in capitalist countries... (germany, japan, sweden)...I know you dont like it and since you are an extreme capitalist I doubt ever like it, I am wondering if it's ready to submit or not...do u think there are things I should change? (from a legal perspective...this is my first piece of legislation in the WA).

No. I didn't say it was socialist. I said it was very much like socialism. And it is. Your practically handing the business over to the public. For the "greater good". What about that doesn't sound like socialism. Your literally dismantling private ownership of large businesses in this act by giving all the power to shareholders and workers. What about the individual who established and owned the business? Especially if they are the principal shareholder? Do they get no say?

[Wolfmanne]

Um no...this isnt socialism...this type of system has definately been used in capitalist countries... (germany, japan, sweden)...I know you dont like it and since you are an extreme capitalist I doubt ever like it, I am wondering if it's ready to submit or not...do u think there are things I should change? (from a legal perspective...this is my first piece of legislation in the WA).

I'm not a Radical Capitalist, since I hold Centrist views on Social Justice and Leftist views on Health Care.

[Separatist Peoples]

Also, are you planning on making every shareholder have a "One vote, One person" policy and completely abolish the basic tenants of shareholding?

[The Left-Libertarian Hippies]

Of course they get a say, but Im not handing this over to the public...workers and shareholders are a part of the business...they arent the "public".

[Separatist Peoples]

Of course they get a say, but Im not handing this over to the public...workers and shareholders are a part of the business...they arent the "public".

They might as well be in big businesses. Large corporations with tens of thousands of jobs? And you didn't address my point about ownership.

[Separatist Peoples]

Also, by giving a free say to the workers on the same level of shareholders effectively weakens the shareholder's ownership, devaluing the shares and massively hurting the business.

[The Left-Libertarian Hippies]

I plan to give shareholders the rights to decisions made in compaines...yes, I guess you could say Im giving ownership to them...