by King Zhaoxiang of Qin » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:08 am
by The Emmerian Unions » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:36 am
Ifreann wrote:"And in world news, the United States has recently elected Bill Gates as God Emperor For All Time. Foreign commentators believe that Gates' personal fortune may have played a role in his victory, but criticism from the United States of Gates(as it is now known) has been sparse and brief."
by Charlotte Ryberg » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:44 am
by King Zhaoxiang of Qin » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:49 am
The Emmerian Unions wrote:Illegal for a House of Cards Violation, by citing GAR: 31.
by The Emmerian Unions » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:51 am
King Zhaoxiang of Qin wrote:The Emmerian Unions wrote:Illegal for a House of Cards Violation, by citing GAR: 31.
We disagree.
Potential contradiction with the old bill was only one of many concerns, and the rules state that protesting a new bill's potentially contradictory nature in relation to an old bill is merely "insufficient" and does not, merely by being mentioned in the repeal proposal, make the repeal illegal.
Similarly, this rule would apply to arguments of assembly resolution affects on national sovereignty. It merely states that such concerns are insufficient for an appeal. Not that mention of such concerns are cause for the appeal to be deemed illegal.
Ifreann wrote:"And in world news, the United States has recently elected Bill Gates as God Emperor For All Time. Foreign commentators believe that Gates' personal fortune may have played a role in his victory, but criticism from the United States of Gates(as it is now known) has been sparse and brief."
by King Zhaoxiang of Qin » Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:59 am
The Emmerian Unions wrote:King Zhaoxiang of Qin wrote:The Emmerian Unions wrote:Illegal for a House of Cards Violation, by citing GAR: 31.
We disagree.
Potential contradiction with the old bill was only one of many concerns, and the rules state that protesting a new bill's potentially contradictory nature in relation to an old bill is merely "insufficient" and does not, merely by being mentioned in the repeal proposal, make the repeal illegal.
Similarly, this rule would apply to arguments of assembly resolution affects on national sovereignty. It merely states that such concerns are insufficient for an appeal. Not that mention of such concerns are cause for the appeal to be deemed illegal.
And what would happen if GAR#31 Were to be repealed? This proposal would lose much ground as there would no longer be a World Health Organization.
by Meekinos » Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:51 am
by King Zhaoxiang of Qin » Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:01 am
by Meekinos » Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:04 am
by King Zhaoxiang of Qin » Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:11 am
Meekinos wrote:Removing it is entirely possible. You can request the removal of the proposal via the Getting Help page.
by King Zhaoxiang of Qin » Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:20 am
by The Emmerian Unions » Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:29 am
Ifreann wrote:"And in world news, the United States has recently elected Bill Gates as God Emperor For All Time. Foreign commentators believe that Gates' personal fortune may have played a role in his victory, but criticism from the United States of Gates(as it is now known) has been sparse and brief."
by Charlotte Ryberg » Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:01 am
House of Cards
"RECALLING Resolution #3, #4, #34, #36, #67, and #457..."
This is becoming problematic. If those Resolutions are repealed, you've gutted the base of your own Resolution. Also, we start to run into issues for new proposals.
by King Zhaoxiang of Qin » Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:06 am
Charlotte Ryberg wrote:It is, honoured ambassador to The Emmerian Unions:House of Cards
"RECALLING Resolution #3, #4, #34, #36, #67, and #457..."
This is becoming problematic. If those Resolutions are repealed, you've gutted the base of your own Resolution. Also, we start to run into issues for new proposals.
Because repeals are permanent, it must be able to survive repeals of all other resolutions in future. The rules also quote that excessive back referencing is not acceptable either. Repeals cannot even reference to other repeals, either.
by Bears Armed » Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:24 am
King Zhaoxiang of Qin wrote:The edited repeal is not stating that General Assembly Resolution 44 is "in conflict" with General Assembly Resolution 31, which is a House of Cards violation on our behalf.
We're now stating that Article 5 of General Assembly Resolution 44 is, in itself, a House of Cards violation by referring to and relying on World Assembly Resolution 31. Article 5 of GAR 44 begins with "expanding the power of the World Health Authority"
without addressing what happens if Resolution 31 is repealed.
by King Zhaoxiang of Qin » Mon Aug 10, 2009 6:49 am
Bears Armed wrote:King Zhaoxiang of Qin wrote:The edited repeal is not stating that General Assembly Resolution 44 is "in conflict" with General Assembly Resolution 31, which is a House of Cards violation on our behalf.
We're now stating that Article 5 of General Assembly Resolution 44 is, in itself, a House of Cards violation by referring to and relying on World Assembly Resolution 31. Article 5 of GAR 44 begins with "expanding the power of the World Health Authority"
without addressing what happens if Resolution 31 is repealed.
OOC: Official policy is that if a resolution gets passed then it must be considered de facto 'legal' (at least from the IC viewpoint), even if it contains some technically-'illegal' detail that didn't get pointed out in time for the Mods to delete it on those grounds (in RL), and so using such an illegality as the grounds for a repeal is itself 'illegal'...
by King Zhaoxiang of Qin » Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:51 am
by Travancore-Cochin » Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:29 am
by Krioval » Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:10 pm
by New Xania » Mon Aug 10, 2009 7:39 pm
by Tanara » Mon Aug 10, 2009 8:19 pm
by The Cat-Tribe » Tue Aug 11, 2009 3:52 am
by Bears Armed » Tue Aug 11, 2009 4:04 am
Krioval wrote:OOC: The best way around a house of cards issue is to reference the agency you'd ordinarily want to handle and specify a new organization that could take over if the original one becomes inactive.
by King Zhaoxiang of Qin » Tue Aug 11, 2009 10:54 am
The Cat-Tribe wrote:As the author of the Reduction of Abortion Act, I feel compelled to defend it against a misguided attack. It is 3am here, however, so I will be brief.
1. There is no House of Cards violation. The Rules for WA Proposals clearly state: "A Proposal must be able to stand on its own even if all referenced Resolutions were struck from existance; however, you may assign duties to an existing committee. Should the Resolution that creates the committe be Repealed, the committee will continue to exist, but in a reduced capacity." (emphasis added). Resolution #44 does not reference Resolution #31. All it does is assign duties to the World Health Authority.
2. Resolution #44 does not require (or even suggest) abstinence only education methods. To the contary, effective, comprehensive sex education is called for by the resolution. One aspect of such education can be an emphasis on abstinence as a means of avoiding unwanted pregnancies and other consequences of sex. This is NOT a call for "abstinence-only" programs that do nothing other than try to teach abstinence. Abstinence education as part of a broader range of information can be an effective part of preventing unwanted pregnancies and reducing abortion rates.
3. I am pro-choice and the purpose of the Reduction of Abortion Act is to keep abortion safe, rare, and legal. Nothing in the resolution requires abortion be kept legal, but any nation complying with the resolution in good faith should have no need to deprive women of rights by banning abortion.
4. This resolution does not deprive women of rights. Resolution #44 addresses an international problem of unintended pregnancies and unnecessary medical procedures. It empowers women to make reproductive choices without coercion. Further, women die every year from unnecessary and unsafe abortions.*
**OCC: In RL, some 700,000 women die each year from unsafe abortions. Although abortion can be a very safe procedure when legal but regulated, empowering women to avoid unnecessary medical procedures and make informed reproductive decisions is desirable.
I fully agree that abortion can be a beneficial, necessary medical procedure. Contrary to the language of this repeal, nothing in Resolution #44 creates "undue duress" upon women or doctors to avoid abortion.
If this silliness continues, I'll address it further during daylight.
by The Cat-Tribe » Tue Aug 11, 2009 12:20 pm
King Zhaoxiang of Qin wrote:The Cat-Tribe wrote:As the author of the Reduction of Abortion Act, I feel compelled to defend it against a misguided attack. It is 3am here, however, so I will be brief.
1. There is no House of Cards violation. The Rules for WA Proposals clearly state: "A Proposal must be able to stand on its own even if all referenced Resolutions were struck from existance; however, you may assign duties to an existing committee. Should the Resolution that creates the committe be Repealed, the committee will continue to exist, but in a reduced capacity." (emphasis added). Resolution #44 does not reference Resolution #31. All it does is assign duties to the World Health Authority.
2. Resolution #44 does not require (or even suggest) abstinence only education methods. To the contary, effective, comprehensive sex education is called for by the resolution. One aspect of such education can be an emphasis on abstinence as a means of avoiding unwanted pregnancies and other consequences of sex. This is NOT a call for "abstinence-only" programs that do nothing other than try to teach abstinence. Abstinence education as part of a broader range of information can be an effective part of preventing unwanted pregnancies and reducing abortion rates.
3. I am pro-choice and the purpose of the Reduction of Abortion Act is to keep abortion safe, rare, and legal. Nothing in the resolution requires abortion be kept legal, but any nation complying with the resolution in good faith should have no need to deprive women of rights by banning abortion.
4. This resolution does not deprive women of rights. Resolution #44 addresses an international problem of unintended pregnancies and unnecessary medical procedures. It empowers women to make reproductive choices without coercion. Further, women die every year from unnecessary and unsafe abortions.*
**OCC: In RL, some 700,000 women die each year from unsafe abortions. Although abortion can be a very safe procedure when legal but regulated, empowering women to avoid unnecessary medical procedures and make informed reproductive decisions is desirable.
I fully agree that abortion can be a beneficial, necessary medical procedure. Contrary to the language of this repeal, nothing in Resolution #44 creates "undue duress" upon women or doctors to avoid abortion.
If this silliness continues, I'll address it further during daylight.
Regarding Part 1, It doesn't matter and it's a non-issue because we didn't accuse the bill of an HoC violation in the final draft of the repeal proposal.
Regarding Part 2, We would love to see information anywhere that says abstinence education, as whole or only part of a program, is effective, because we have information that it's not.
Regarding Part 3, This is why we oppose the bill. We want to implement a reproductive policy in the WA that doesn't step between doctor and patient. We don't see why abortion has to be rare unless the purpose of the bill is to introduce into international law, in a very elementary way, the idea that a fetus is a life, entitled to equal protection under the law. We feel that GAR 44 is a slippery slope. We don't understand why the bill didn't just set a reduction of third trimester abortions (the most dangerous kind) instead of abortion in general. Just reduction of abortion in general is worryingly overreaching, in our opinion, and makes us suspicious that the bill will be used as a platform for even more restrictive international limitations on the procedure.
Regarding Part 4, A bill that wasn't coercive would be entitled "Freedom of Reproduction" bill or something like that. GAR 44 is coercion.
We would like to see your information, and we do not concede that this 700,000 number is correct, unless you're including abortions in third world countries, where pretty much any medical procedure is going to run a much higher risk of having a complication due to a lot of factors (time between necessity of surgery and surgery performed, availability of equipment, etc.)
We would further submit that unsafe abortions aren't going to be reduced by creating a "reduction of abortion act" in the WA. In fact, it is our conclusion that most anti-abortion measures in law, while they may lead to less abortions overall, lead to more unsafe abortions. And we don't see any reason to believe that the reduction of abortion act won't just cut down on the number of safe abortion procedures, because there will be fewer clinics and etc. willing to perform a procedure that the World Assembly has, if not condemned, than at the very least decided should be performed less often. We would support a reduction of third trimester abortion. We do not support an overall emphasis on reduction of just "abortion" as a procedure, because "abortion" as a procedure can mean a lot of different things, and a lot of those things don't need to be reduced. In fact, some of them need to be encouraged.
For instance, the RU-486 pill, commonly known as the morning after pill. Is taking it considered abortion? There are citizens in King Zhaoxiang of Qin who would say that it is.
In any case, we feel that more abstinence education = more abortions, and the condemning of abortion in general, as opposed to specific kinds of abortion, = more unsafe abortions, even if the bill reduces abortion rates overall.
Regardless of whether you're pro-choice or pro-life, you're falling into a legislative trap that most pro-lifers fall into. You don't like the problem, but the solution makes even bigger issues than the original problem did.
P.S. Speaking of IRL examples, the example we shared re: the ectopic pregnancy and the administration of methotrexate? That's a true story. It involved a lot more people (I think the patient sued more than 7 people involved in her case, because the OBGYN referred her and other people were involved. Neonatal specialists and nurses and etc, but the amount of the damages was real and the story is real. I know the doctor who consulted the hospital who employed the staff who were sued for malpractice by the patient. They wanted him to testify on their behalf at the malpractice trial as an expert witness.
And he wouldn't do it, because the hospital and it's staff were just plain wrong.
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