Day of cultures

[Herrebrugh]

Day of cultures


POINTING to the fact that once the world was created and formed into the shape we all know today.

THINKING of the fact that people now walk on the face of the world in all kinds of Ideologies, cultures and religions.

REMEMBERING the people that where killed because of there religion, ideology or culture.

ESTABLISHING the "Day of cultures" as international cultural festival and celebrating the Day of cultures every 5th of August.

What do you think of this? Suggestions on how to improve this resolution are greatly welcome!

[Malikov]

Day of cultures


POINTING *(change to acknowledges)* to the fact that once *(needs a comma here)* the world was created and formed into the shape we all know today. *(a place of isolation)*

THINKING of the fact *(Knowing)* that people now walk on the face of the world in all kinds of Ideologies, cultures and religions.

REMEMBERING the people that where *(were)* killed because of there *(their)* religion, ideology or culture.

ESTABLISHING *(establishes)* the "Day of Cultures" as *(an)* international cultural festival *culture festival / festival of culture)* and celebrating the Day of cultures every 5th of August. *(major rewording neccessary)*

What do you think of this? Suggestions on how to improve this resolution are greatly welcome!

I'm not an expert on whether this is legal or not, so I'll let someone else handle that. You might want to check your grammar though, and put this into a proper WA resolution format (use past resolutions as examples).

[The Emmerian Unions]

NO! Illegal. Meta gaming.

[Buffett and Colbert]

No

[Malikov]

Never submit something before it gets edited by other nations.

[Namelessplace]

NO! Illegal. Meta gaming.

Just out of curiousity, how is this illegal?

[Buffett and Colbert]

NO! Illegal. Meta gaming.

Just out of curiousity, how is this illegal?

It mentions August, a RL month.

EDIT-- And it attempts to change the game.

[Morlago]

NO! Illegal. Meta gaming.

Just out of curiousity, how is this illegal?

It mentions August, a RL month.

EDIT-- And it attempts to change the game.

And it seems to imply to non-WA nations too.

[Charlotte Ryberg]

Regrettably this draft is illegal. It changes the game mechanics, it forces it upon non-member states and it may not be worthy of the WA's consideration. The right to culture has also already been covered under various acts, honoured ambassador.

[Bears Armed]

NO! Illegal. Meta gaming.

Just out of curiousity, how is this illegal?

It mentions August, a RL month.

RL references are illegal in themsleves, not as 'Meta-gaming'... but its questionable whether the names of months are considered to be only "RL" rather than well-known enough IC to count as legal references...
There's at least one past precedent for a Mod apparently accepting such a reference as valid, although admittedly the proposal concerned was illegal for 'Meta-gaming' anyway and -- although it got passed by the NSUN, having reached safety in the queue just before it would otherwise have been deleted -- soon repealed: If you check the debate on 'Max Barry Day' you'll see Hack Fris telling one player who commented that his nation didn't even have the relevant date in their calendar that as the proposal had passed "They do now"... So if this proposal were to be passed then, arguably, any nation whose calendar doesn't currently include a "5th August" would have to add one...

EDIT-- And it attempts to change the game.

More so than any other proposal? Where's there an actual illegal aspect to its changes?

Regrettably this draft is illegal. It changes the game mechanics,

Where?!?

[Charlotte Ryberg]

Regrettably this draft is illegal. It changes the game mechanics,

Where?!?

The phrase "ESTABLISHING the "Day of cultures" as international cultural festival and celebrating the Day of cultures every 5th of August" leads me to suggest that NationStates would be forced to make 5 August a public holiday in every country and in the WA as well which may imply the WA may be forced to be inactive on 5 August, but correct me if I am being too paranoid, honoured ambassador.

[Grays Harbor]

We believe that most civilized Nations already have sufficient Holidays celebrating their own culture. Why should the WA mandate one specific day, in addition to all others currently in exsistance, be celebrated?

[Kryozerkia]

NO! Illegal. Meta gaming.

Just out of curiousity, how is this illegal?

From The Rules for GA Proposals:

MetaGaming is a difficult to understand category at times, especially since it often shares jurisdiction with Game Mechanics violations. Essentially, a MetaGaming violation is one that breaks "the fourth wall", or attempts to force events outside of the WA itself. Proposals dealing with Regions, with other nations, Moderators, and requiring activities on the Forums are examples. This also includes proposals that try to affect non-WA nations.

Your proposal is inclusive of non-WA nations. It also makes reference to real life.

George Bush, Hammas, France, The Michigan Compiled Laws (Annotated), and Smith & Wesson do not exist in the NationStates world. Don't bring them up in Proposals. This includes references to real world documents, movies, and books. This is really easy to grasp and is a "bright line" violation. A Proposal that is wonderfully written, but mentions "the Great Wall of China" will be deleted. Also, while it acceptable to use real world laws and UN resolutions as a starting point, don't plagiarize.

The above are just some examples. Do note that not all nations follow the same calendar and making reference to August is making such a reference. It is relying on all nations using the Gregorian calendar. There are others that are used, including and not limited to the Julian calendar, Hebrew, Islamic, etc.

[Bears Armed]

NO! Illegal. Meta gaming.

Just out of curiousity, how is this illegal?

From The Rules for GA Proposals:

MetaGaming is a difficult to understand category at times, especially since it often shares jurisdiction with Game Mechanics violations. Essentially, a MetaGaming violation is one that breaks "the fourth wall", or attempts to force events outside of the WA itself. Proposals dealing with Regions, with other nations, Moderators, and requiring activities on the Forums are examples. This also includes proposals that try to affect non-WA nations.

Your proposal is inclusive of non-WA nations. It also makes reference to real life.

George Bush, Hammas, France, The Michigan Compiled Laws (Annotated), and Smith & Wesson do not exist in the NationStates world. Don't bring them up in Proposals. This includes references to real world documents, movies, and books. This is really easy to grasp and is a "bright line" violation. A Proposal that is wonderfully written, but mentions "the Great Wall of China" will be deleted. Also, while it acceptable to use real world laws and UN resolutions as a starting point, don't plagiarize.

The above are just some examples. Do note that not all nations follow the same calendar and making reference to August is making such a reference. It is relying on all nations using the Gregorian calendar. There are others that are used, including and not limited to the Julian calendar, Hebrew, Islamic, etc.

Ahem! As far ass "August" is concerned, did you see the precedent that I cited above?

[Kryozerkia]

Ahem! As far ass "August" is concerned, did you see the precedent that I cited above?

You didn't cite the relevant rule.

[Bears Armed]

Ahem! As far ass "August" is concerned, did you see the precedent that I cited above?

You didn't cite the relevant rule.

No, what I cited was a Mod (specifically Hack) interpreting a rule, and in the past the Mods have always said that the rules on proposals don't (& can't) cover every possibility in detail so that the precedents established by their rulings should also be considered...
I seem to recall (although I can't get into the Jolt forum at the moment) that he was ruling on the basis that so many people do use the Gregorian calendar for their nations that it effectively is a part of the NS mutliverse.... just as, for example, the 'Metric System' -- the legality of referring to which in proposals I questioned on one occasion -- [unfortunately] is.
Now, obviously as you're a Mod yourself you're entitled to interpret the rules as you choose, but where that interpretation disagrees with a past precedent shouldn't the matter remain open to debate unless & until we get a general consenus on the matter amongst the Mods involved?

[Kryozerkia]

Ahem! As far ass "August" is concerned, did you see the precedent that I cited above?

You didn't cite the relevant rule.

No, what I cited was a Mod (specifically Hack) interpreting a rule, and in the past the Mods have always said that the rules on proposals don't (& can't) cover every possibility in detail so that the precedents established by their rulings should also be considered...
I seem to recall (although I can't get into the Jolt forum at the moment) that he was ruling on the basis that so many people do use the Gregorian calendar for their nations that it effectively is a part of the NS mutliverse.... just as, for example, the 'Metric System' -- the legality of referring to which in proposals I questioned on one occasion -- [unfortunately] is.
Now, obviously as you're a Mod yourself you're entitled to interpret the rules as you choose, but where that interpretation disagrees with a past precedent shouldn't the matter remain open to debate unless & until we get a general consenus on the matter amongst the Mods involved?

I have a hard time believing you're arguing with me because I did my bloody job. I was doing what I felt was necessary and you're being a nitpicker. If you don't like that I am trying to help, then I suggest you lump it because it doesn't change a thing. You can snivel all you want but it won't change that I am doing my job here.

Even if you mentioned Hack, it would have been much more helpful to give the player a point of reference, read: link, to the rule.

As for the metric system, it works because it became the standard for the WA though a resolution. There is no accepted calendar standard for the WA in the form of a resolution.

Also, this thread is NOT locked, which indicates room for more input.

If you want to make a point, go argue with a brick wall, since I'm not going to budge.

[Disong]

In my nation, we use a 13 month calnder of 28 days each, the 1 "extra" day being the celebration of the New Year. For leap years we add 1 day midsummer as the Festival of lanterns.

Our culture has sufficient holidays of its own, we do not require an extra-national body to add new ones for us, especially on a "date" that would only serve to confuse the general populace.

[Herrebrugh]

I never tried to make this non-wa inclusive.... maybe it wasn't clear enough....

[Bears Armed]

[I have a hard time believing you're arguing with me because I did my bloody job. I was doing what I felt was necessary and you're being a nitpicker. If you don't like that I am trying to help, then I suggest you lump it because it doesn't change a thing. You can snivel all you want

(question a differernce between how one Mod is interpreting a rule now and how another one has done so in the past) = "snivel"?!? That seems a very poor choice of words to me, and possibly even borderline flaming...
And we always "nitpick" in this section of the forums, that's what they're for: take a look at some of the draft proposals that might get through if we didn't...

Even if you mentioned Hack, it would have been much more helpful to give the player a point of reference, read: link, to the rule.

As I already said, he gave that ruling in the Jolt forum -- in the thread about the 'Max Barry Day' resolution -- and I was unable to get into that forum today (I did try to do so, but the attempts to do so kept timing-out on me)... and without getting into that forum, I obviously couldn't get the url for the link that you're requesting.

[Kryozerkia]

(question a differernce between how one Mod is interpreting a rule now and how another one has done so in the past) = "snivel"?!? That seems a very poor choice of words to me, and possibly even borderline flaming...

SNIVEL:
1. To sniffle.
2. To complain or whine tearfully.
3. To run at the nose.

As I already said, he gave that ruling in the Jolt forum -- in the thread about the 'Max Barry Day' resolution -- and I was unable to get into that forum today (I did try to do so, but the attempts to do so kept timing-out on me)... and without getting into that forum, I obviously couldn't get the url for the link that you're requesting.

Old World Assembly forums. I've found no such reference, but if you would like to, by all means.

[Bears Armed]

(question a differernce between how one Mod is interpreting a rule now and how another one has done so in the past) = "snivel"?!? That seems a very poor choice of words to me, and possibly even borderline flaming...

SNIVEL:
1. To sniffle.
2. To complain or whine tearfully.
3. To run at the nose.

And claiming that your words had reduced me to tears -- with no evidence for this -- is okay?
Meh...

(As I already said, he gave that ruling in the Jolt forum -- in the thread about the 'Max Barry Day' resolution -- and I was unable to get into that forum today (I did try to do so, but the attempts to do so kept timing-out on me)... and without getting into that forum, I obviously couldn't get the url for the link that you're requesting.

Old World Assembly forums. I've found no such reference, but if you would like to, by all means.

Thank you. Okay, that link did get me through into the old forums; it was actaully an NSUN debate rather than a WA one, but the same rules applied and so precdents were held to carry over from one body to the other...
Oops! Not 'Hack', but 'Fris'... but anyway, here we are...
Seems like a pretty clear Mod ruling that resolutions can require the addition of specific Gregorian-calendar dates to nations' calendars, doesn't it?

(Not that the this particular proposal is actually worth passing of course, even if its use of 'August' is legal, but it seemed possible that this detail might also be relevant in some future discussion about a better idea so sorting out whether the earlier ruling still applies now -- instead of having two conflicting ones to which people could point in that later debate -- seemed advisable to me...)

[Kryozerkia]

And claiming that your words had reduced me to tears -- with no evidence for this -- is okay?

I claimed nothing. I used it because that is how I felt with your posts. That you were whining excessively.

Thank you. Okay, that link did get me through into the old forums; it was actaully an NSUN debate rather than a WA one, but the same rules applied and so precdents were held to carry over from one body to the other...
Oops! Not 'Hack', but 'Fris'... but anyway, here we are...

Your link likely didn't work because it pointed to the old jolt forum.

This one appears to just be a snarky answer, at least in my opinion. I would still say that this proposal shouldn't have been submitted because it appears to be illegal. However, I will turn this link over to the others to discuss this.

[Bears Armed]

I claimed nothing. I used it because that is how I felt with your posts. That you were whining excessively.

I remember when another player, Fonzoland, responded to another Mod's complaint that he was nitpicking "excessively" by adopting 'The Excessive Nitpickers of' for his nation's new pre-title. I still miss Fonzo, his contributions to NSUN debates were generally very good indeed...

...but I'm not going to adopt 'The Excessive Whiners of' as my pre-title.


(EDIT: I've fixed the reference in my original post about this.)

[Ardchoille]

@ Kryo and Bears Armed hammer and tongs -- the spirit of the old NSUN lives on. *nods to ghosts* ...

Bears Armed, how's about "Growlers"? The Excessive Growlers of Bears Armed would be culturally sensitive, no? (I say this as one who often appreciates the aptness of Ambassador O Redwood's grumbles.)

Eh, well, to business: Fris's quote was made just after Max Barry Day had passed, to our collective chagrin. Try reading his "you do now" statement with the subtext "because every bloody stupid thing in this ridiculous resolution is legal now and will be until we get our collective arses in gear and send it to the ninth circle of hell where it belongs!" -- I don't think it should be interpreted as "having Gregorian calendar dates is legal in all future proposals".

(I also think citing Max Barry Day as precedent should be grounds for defenestration, but that's not a mod ruling.)