Time Travel Proposal

[Absolvability]

Absolvability wrote:
mathematics tells us that every amount of measurement (including time,) can be subdivided
Not indefinitely.

Thank you so much for that link. I still think my point is completely valid. That reference you provided us with says that the 'Planck' is the shortest unit of time. It also says that anything smaller would be fairly meaningless. Which is not at all to say it does not exist, but to say that it has no real use. However, when debating hypotheticals such as the 'first moment in time,' my point is still valid. Because, mathematically speaking, we can have half of a Planck. And we can have a quarter, an eighth, a sixteenth, a 32nd, 64th, so on and so fourth.

Why? Why can't I go to some place that doesn't give me "express consent"?

For the same reason that you can't visit certain nations without a passport. Or the same reason that you can't live anywhere you might like. The Right of Immigration has not yet been drafted, though the Right of Emigration has.

Or, more specific to the causes of this proposal, because this is a matter of varying degrees of technological advancement, and most practicing nations recognize the trickle-down effect that changes in the past may have on the future. This could, however inadvertantly, be dangerous. Therefore one must obtain consent.

If a country in the present doesn't express an opinion one way or another as to whether I can go there or not, shouldn't I be able to go there?

No. This would be assuming that no answer at all implies a 'yes.' We can not do that. Especially since some nations are not, and refuse to become, aware that time travel exists. This is why the proposal requires EXPRESS consent... rather than implicit.

I point you again towards resolution 46; you haven't really touched on my concerns.

No, I haven't, and I apologize for that.
(OOC: I'll get right on that, but I'm about to eat dinner.)

And "MANDATES that no WA nation may visit any other nation" is still poorly phrased because the "nations" aren't the entities doing the visiting.

Quite right. I'll fix that.

[Absolvability]

I was not aware Resolution 46 was The Right to Emigration. Lets keep in mind the differences between Emigration and Immigration, Ambassador.

[Plutoni]

I'm not referring to the particulars of 46 so much as the intent behind it--it seems to support people's ability to move between countries. If I wanted to go back to the area that is now Plutoni before it was inhabited, and hence before a state could "lock me out", why shouldn't I be legally permitted to?

--Raymond Gardner

[Secruss]

Why not just ban time travel all-together?

[Absolvability]

Immigrate: To enter and settle in a country or region to which one is not native.
Emigrate: to leave one country or region (to settle in another)

The Right of Emigration allows people to leave their nation. It does not grant people the right to enter and settle in any country they wish.

This may seem odd to you, and I might even agree that one should be assured without the other... but, still, that IS the way it is.

The intent behind the Right of Emigration, as I see it, was to grant people the right to move from a nation which they object to being a resident of. So while you can't be held captive by any particular country without internationally recognized legal reasons, you still may not go anywhere you wish.

Why not just ban time travel all-together?

Because I don't believe in crushing technologies. Because that proposal would have all the problems this one has, and then some.

[Plutoni]

I'm clear on the distinction between emigration and immigration. If I attempted to immigrate to a country that did not wish to let me in, I would be excluded and have no legal grounds to assert otherwise.

Now, what if I wish to immigrate to an area that has no political entity to bar me from doing so? I'm sorry to have dragged the right to emigration in if it's only going to create confusion, but to me, it signifies a WA willingness to generally support the right of movement, which this proposal would curtail. So I'm interested in hearing more about why.

[Secruss]

How about we create a WA funded time travel regulatory commission in the bill then?

[Flibbleites]

OOC: Bullshit, I believe the password feature was added as a way to prevent raiders from crashing a region. It has nothing to do with this supposed harassment you're claiming. And for the record, I'm not Time traveling misfits although I do wish I had thought of it.

OOC: I said it was proof that a problem exists, not that the problem exists. As it just so happens, I believe the function is in place to prevent against BOTH such occurances.

OOC: Except passwording a region is going to stop is someone putting that puppet in your region, it won't prevent them from creating the puppet in the first place.

[Maerngau]

Without wading into the thick of the debate, I have a question:

Is there a law on the books already that forbids one nation (or citizens of a nation) from visiting another nation without permission?

If that is the case, a law that makes the same point - but merely with time travel involved - is absurd and redundant.

[Bears Armed]

Why not just ban time travel all-together?

"If time travel is outlawed, only outlaws will have time travel."

Or, to put this another way, WA member nations may need to use time travel to defend their pasts not only against [private] criminals but also against actions by non-WA nations as the latter -- of course -- would be unaffected by any such ban.

[Absolvability]

OOC: Except passwording a region is going to stop is someone putting that puppet in your region, it won't prevent them from creating the puppet in the first place.

Puppets serve many uses. I didn't mean 'both circumstances' to imply both uses of puppets... simply that passwording a region protects against raiders AND harassers. Raiders may harass, but harasses don't necessarily raid. And puppets can be used for both.

How about we create a WA funded time travel regulatory commission in the bill then?

Basically I have.

"Hereby establishes the "Time Travel Agency," to operate as a WA sanctioned and funded organization, to handle the following:
1) Establishment and upkeep of the aforementioned 'present time,' hereby referred to as MDMT (Multi-Dimensional Mean Time.)
2) Establish and maintain that criminals of the past/present/future can not escape the jurisdiction of whatever nation they are legally responsible to by way of time travel by way of arbitration and/or mediation when so called upon by parties involved.
3) Actively study what can be referred to as the 'Butterfly Effect,' in order to better predict/avoid/fix unintentional trickle-down effects of time travel. Also, possibly, to disprove the theory."

Is there anything you'd like me to add to its list of duties?

Is there a law on the books already that forbids one nation (or citizens of a nation) from visiting another nation without permission?

I really don't think so. Of course, many nations probably have some sort of policy for themselves. The point of introducing it internationally in the case of time travel is precisely because, with regard to times other than the present, a nation might not be aware of the visitors.

"If time travel is outlawed, only outlaws will have time travel."

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Maerngau]

Is there a law on the books already that forbids one nation (or citizens of a nation) from visiting another nation without permission?

I really don't think so. Of course, many nations probably have some sort of policy for themselves. The point of introducing it internationally in the case of time travel is precisely because, with regard to times other than the present, a nation might not be aware of the visitors.

Any nation worth its salt protects its borders from unwanted trespassing. This is a basic concept and part/parcel of "sovereignty." As such, we don't need to invent questionable science-fictionish scenarios to grant something that already exists.

I think I am going to write a resolution banning x-ray vision, flight, invisibility, and other super-hero powers. Who is with me?

[Secruss]

So.... Timecop?

[Absolvability]

Any nation worth its salt protects its borders from unwanted trespassing.

And any nation worth its salt also protects against discrimination. Even still, somebody thought it was necessary to write the CoCR. And lord knows what else. You'll notice my proposal protects against less orthodox trespassing as well.

[Belriel]

Well, with time travel it's really not the travel that's the problem it's the actions afterward (beforehand-during-afterward..timewise) that cause rippling changes. Assuming for a moment that these changes could be cataloged, perhaps a librarian-like time-traveling committee could be formed in the WA to ensure that mistakes in the space-time continuum are constantly corrected so that no illegal tampering with the timeline may occur within WA member nation territory.

OOC: Well heck, why not?

[Future Technologies]

Well, with time travel it's really not the travel that's the problem it's the actions afterward (beforehand-during-afterward..timewise) that cause rippling changes. Assuming for a moment that these changes could be cataloged, perhaps a librarian-like time-traveling committee could be formed in the WA to ensure that mistakes in the space-time continuum are constantly corrected so that no illegal tampering with the timeline may occur within WA member nation territory.

OOC: Well heck, why not?

Following that assumption, I believe this would imply that the committee would have to be located in a place where they can observe the changes in the space-time continuum. Other than outside it, where can they be so that they can observe the changes and intervene as needed?

[Belriel]

Following that assumption, I believe this would imply that the committee would have to be located in a place where they can observe the changes in the space-time continuum. Other than outside it, where can they be so that they can observe the changes and intervene as needed?

What a brilliant idea! This organization should be stationed in the fifth dimension, so that 4th dimensional timelines can be observed and regulated.

OOC: The Temporal Preservation Committee...from the FIFTH DIMENSION!! (echos out)

[The Most Glorious Hack]

This is getting less and less likely as it goes on.

Focus.

And play nice, everyone.

[Absolvability]

This is getting less and less likely as it goes on.

OOC: Yea. I won't deny I was sorta testing the waters with this proposal. Wanted to see how it would be recieved... y'know... and I didn't REALLY get the answers I wanted. Most responses were resoundingly OOC, or at least subject to meta-gaming. My goal was really just to write something obscure and see if it would be legal.

What a brilliant idea! This organization should be stationed in the fifth dimension, so that 4th dimensional timelines can be observed and regulated.

OOC: That is a fairly brilliant idea, but I was trying through-out this proposal to allow for A) nations that don't accept time travel to be possible and B) nations with varying ideas on time travel. I do not think it would be wise to try to blanket the idea of 5 dimensions. Or that the WA should be the sole objective inhabit of this 5th dimension in order to properly regulate travel between the other 4. I don't know. The mods don't seem to want me to submit this anyway... so I won't... but I still thought it was an interesting discussion, and I appreciate all the feedback, however it came.

with time travel it's really not the travel that's the problem it's the actions afterward (beforehand-during-afterward..timewise) that cause rippling changes. Assuming for a moment that these changes could be cataloged, perhaps a librarian-like time-traveling committee could be formed in the WA to ensure that mistakes in the space-time continuum are constantly corrected

OOC: Highly dependant upon the prowess of our Time Travel technology. I should think that, since you seem to admit that the 'butterfly effect,' or whatever, is a problem... we should also admit that problems derived from such activities wouldn't necessarily be able to be 'fixed.' Which is why I thought it needed regulating at all... though I didn't really regulate anything beyond mandating express consent.

Enforcement of the resolution seems to be the main concern of most. I'm not sure how to argue it, ICly, without meta-gaming and/or mentioning game coding. So maybe that's the point I should gather from all of this... while compliance is mandatory, it should be able to be explained to the average RP character.

[Philimbesi]

My goal was really just to write something obscure and see if it would be legal.

OOC: Sorry needed a weekend away...


IC: My first question as to legality is the question you've yet to answer, short of asking us what we think... what would be the category and strength of your proposal.

[Absolvability]

I've decided to scrap this in favor of a Capital Punishment proposal.

OOC: Oh yea, have a good weekend? I talked my girlfriend into giving me a weekend off. Didn't do shit. Mmm.

[Malikov]

Time Traveling back in time would, in theory, have no effect on the future, because time traveling can't exist. In the past, before time travel technology was created, someone from the future would've time traveled back to your perception of time/space/reality, wether it be a criminal or a tourist, or someone who has every future legal right to be there. Even the slightest change to the time stream could make the future in which the original time traveler not exist, and in theory time travel. Therefore, time travel technology would've only occured if someone from the future time traveled back into your time stream. If that statement is true, then time travel would never be created, because the creation of time travel would depend on someone time traveling. Time travel is an usolvable paradox, because it requires itself to come into existance.

Malikov, Jordia