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D: Simplifying the Rules

Where WA members debate how to improve the world, one resolution at a time.

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Potted Plants United
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1130
Founded: Jan 14, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Potted Plants United » Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:38 am

IA: I am still logging in here occasionally to catch up on what GA as a whole is up to, and throw feedback at drafts and such. So "when I was last here" is a bit nebulous. I'm fairly sure it's been quite a long time since I last filed a legality challenge, however.

I have too much stuff going on in life to remember what all was done when, here, by me or others, and as I mostly log in on mobile from the waiting rooms of hospitals or docs' lounges for momentary distraction, I pretty much don't really care about your personal opinions about me anymore. Have a nice life. <3

It's a discussion thread, gave my two eurocents, nothing more.

*waves at other GenSec members* Stay pretty in pink!
Last edited by Potted Plants United on Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
This nation is a plant-based hivemind. It's current ambassador for interacting with humanoids is a bipedal plant creature standing at almost two metres tall. In IC in the WA.
My main nation is Araraukar.
Separatist Peoples wrote:"NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE!"
- Mr. Bell, when introduced to PPU's newest moving plant

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Gruenberg
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1182
Founded: Jul 18, 2005
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Gruenberg » Thu Nov 24, 2022 4:48 am

What an absolutely useless comment lmao

Anyway:

Magecastle Embassy Building A5 wrote:Firstly, the rules are not even consistent with how they are actually enforced.

Never have been. What's legal and what's not has never had all that much to do with what's written in the rules.
Magecastle Embassy Building A5 wrote:The GA already has a very steep learning curve. NS is played by users as young as 13, and being able to find a policy idea, write it into World Assembly law, ensure that it is politically viable, and be clear in avoiding oversights and loopholes, is already quite difficult, and this is not helped by players having their proposals marked illegal for something that a new player would only find by mining through old precedent when it should be clear from the text of the ruleset itself.

The steep learning curve is because RL lawyers got their claws into what was once meant to be a fun roleplaying game. That said, does it matter? It's so easy to get a proposal to quorum now -- anyone can get any proposal to quorum at any time, with a couple of bucks' worth of stamps or for free with a script -- that whether or not that proposal ends up being legal/failing/repealed/etc. is irrelevant, they can just keep brute forcing them through.
Magecastle Embassy Building A5 wrote:Besides the numerous typoes and errors in the text of the rules, the solution is a complete rework of the ruleset.

Well, yes, it's absolutely fucking bonkers that the first thing that the pink power rangers did wasn't to comprehensively redraw the rules and literally laugh out loud hilarious that they still haven't done so years later. But they're obviously not going to. So better ideas:

* Ban RL lawyers.

* Ban automatic TGing.

* Do a full WA reset.
"Do you mean "coming out"...as a Guardian reader would understand the term?"

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Potted Plants United
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1130
Founded: Jan 14, 2013
Democratic Socialists

Postby Potted Plants United » Thu Nov 24, 2022 6:41 am

Gruenberg wrote:What an absolutely useless comment lmao

These threads tend to be useless. *tickles you anyway*

Gruenberg wrote:* Do a full WA reset.

...if only we could... :D

Unfortunately as far as I know, Max is still opposed to this idea?
This nation is a plant-based hivemind. It's current ambassador for interacting with humanoids is a bipedal plant creature standing at almost two metres tall. In IC in the WA.
My main nation is Araraukar.
Separatist Peoples wrote:"NOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPENOPE!"
- Mr. Bell, when introduced to PPU's newest moving plant

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Omigodtheykilledkenny
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5734
Founded: Mar 14, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Omigodtheykilledkenny » Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:37 am

I think I remember reading a comment from [violet] saying that another reset would not happen. However, that was years ago.
Omigodtheykilledkenny FAQ | "The Biggest Sovereigntist IN THE WORLD" - Chester Pearson

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BEEstreetz
Attaché
 
Posts: 77
Founded: May 28, 2022
Anarchy

Postby BEEstreetz » Thu Nov 24, 2022 9:49 am

Magecastle Embassy Building A5 wrote:The GA already has a very steep learning curve. NS is played by users as young as 13, and being able to find a policy idea, write it into World Assembly law, ensure that it is politically viable, and be clear in avoiding oversights and loopholes, is already quite difficult, and this is not helped by players having their proposals marked illegal for something that a new player would only find by mining through old precedent when it should be clear from the text of the ruleset itself.

Precedent itself can be filled with legal jargon and complicated language that would, once again, make it incomprehensible to the average 13 year old who only just joined NS/started participating in the WA. The Flesch-Kincaid readability scale shows the latest precedent with a grade level of 12.2, with all precedents having a GL scale of no less than 11. Likewise, the ruleset itself has a GL scale of 12.5. While I do not find that such complexity in GenSec rulings is inherently bad, it makes it even more important that the rules be clear and able to be understood by anyone.

I agree with all of these, but instead of seeing it as an issue I see it as a justification. Generally, NS should be available to every demographic but not cater to a specific one. 13 year old users are more likely to engage in aspects other than a simplified version of international law.
The legalese you mention being used in WA is already very watered down when compared to international treaties. Any attempt of further simplification would just render it into a low-effort parody.
I've been things.
(Telegrams open).


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El Lazaro
Minister
 
Posts: 2237
Founded: Oct 19, 2021
Left-wing Utopia

Postby El Lazaro » Thu Nov 24, 2022 11:02 am

The vast majority of illegal proposals are very low quality regardless, and wouldn’t have a chance of serious consideration even if they weren’t illegal.

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Sedgistan
Senior Issues Moderator
 
Posts: 32719
Founded: Oct 20, 2006
Anarchy

Postby Sedgistan » Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:15 am

Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:I think I remember reading a comment from [violet] saying that another reset would not happen. However, that was years ago.

That was probably pre-Development Managers. It would be Goob's call now. It got discussed in Technical when Mall was originally appointed DM, and that discussion could be revisited there if people want.

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Bears Armed
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 21176
Founded: Jun 01, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bears Armed » Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:27 pm

Sedgistan wrote:
Omigodtheykilledkenny wrote:I think I remember reading a comment from [violet] saying that another reset would not happen. However, that was years ago.

That was probably pre-Development Managers. It would be Goob's call now. It got discussed in Technical when Mall was originally appointed DM, and that discussion could be revisited there if people want.

It was due to the fuss raised by various authors of 'historical' resolutiions, following the reset iinvolved in the UN=>WA transition, so probably in the latter days of the Jolt forum... and IIRC was said then by [violet] to be a promise from Max himself.
No, Gruen; No, IA; I'm not going to dig through any archived version of that forum to try finding the post in question: As I said when resigning from GenSec I no longer care particularly about what happens to the GA as a whole allthough -- for as long as it continues without a general reset -- I might step in from time to time to defend resolutions that I authored or co-authored.This post is just a FYI for the Development Managers in case they might want to check.
(However I have checked the News pages for 2008 8 2009, and this topic isn't menioned at all on either of those.)
Last edited by Bears Armed on Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Confrederated Clans (and other Confrederated Bodys) of the Free Bears of Bears Armed
(includes The Ursine NorthLands) Demonym = Bear[s]; adjective = ‘Urrsish’.
Population = just under 20 million. Economy = only Thriving. Average Life expectancy = c.60 years. If the nation is classified as 'Anarchy' there still is a [strictly limited] national government... and those aren't "biker gangs", they're traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies', generally respected rather than feared.
Author of some GA Resolutions, via Bears Armed Mission; subject of an SC resolution.
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Wallenburg
GA Secretariat
 
Posts: 22223
Founded: Jan 30, 2015
Democratic Socialists

Postby Wallenburg » Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:30 am

El Lazaro wrote:The vast majority of illegal proposals are very low quality regardless, and wouldn’t have a chance of serious consideration even if they weren’t illegal.

I'm not so sure on the latter point. Plenty of low quality proposals pass into law, and pretty much any proposal of any quality has a chance at going to Vote as long as someone advertises it sufficiently to the delegates.
I want to improve.
grestin went through the MKULTRA program and he has more of a free will than wallenburg does - Imperial Idaho
King of Snark, General Assembly Secretary, Arbiter for The East Pacific


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El Lazaro
Minister
 
Posts: 2237
Founded: Oct 19, 2021
Left-wing Utopia

Postby El Lazaro » Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:37 am

Wallenburg wrote:
El Lazaro wrote:The vast majority of illegal proposals are very low quality regardless, and wouldn’t have a chance of serious consideration even if they weren’t illegal.

I'm not so sure on the latter point. Plenty of low quality proposals pass into law, and pretty much any proposal of any quality has a chance at going to Vote as long as someone advertises it sufficiently to the delegates.

When I say low quality, I mean this:
https://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_vi ... 1669223492
https://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_vi ... 1669301049
https://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_vi ... 1669425753
https://www.nationstates.net/page=UN_vi ... 1669427381

So yeah, no way they’d pass if they were legal.

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