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Kagdazka and Pazhujebu
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Posts: 649
Founded: Mar 04, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kagdazka and Pazhujebu » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:01 pm

Michael VII wrote:So K&P, can you try to explain to me, (not a newbie, but not the most experienced guy out there either! haha), why NSFS should have the highest ranked team set to the max possible points?

More of a curiosity question, because I primarily use xkoranate except for domestic cups which I want to get done quickly, but still interested. (Don't worry World Bowlers, if you read this, I am still using xkoranate for the WB finals!)

It's complicated, but I'll try and breeze through a response.

NSFS 3 requires a max points setting so that it can calculate a team's overall skill as the quotient of a team's ranking points divided by the max points constant, so the closer a team is to max points, the better they are (duh).

Let's say the best team in your league (Team A) has 80 ranking points. Maybe the second best team (Team B) has 70. Now, no matter what the max points constant is set at, Team A is always going to be better than Team B. But think about this:

If the max points is set to 80, Team A's quotient of ranking points over max points comes to 1. Team B's comes to 0.875. The difference is 0.125.

If the max points is set to 100, however, Team A's quotient of ranking points over max points is 0.8. Team B's is 0.7, for a difference of 0.1.

If the max points is set to 120, Team A's quotient of ranking points over max points is 0.6667. Team B's is 0.5833, for a difference of 0.0833.

As you can see, the higher you set max points, the smaller the difference between Team A and Team B gets and the more random your results will be league wide. The problem isn't that Team A won't be good; they'll still be the best in the league, in fact; but when you set max points too high all the teams in the league get mashed together in a bottleneck.

So if people are selecting a max points constant and think, "well, I don't want Team A to be that good, so I'll leave a gap," they need to understand that they are making results more random all across the league.

All of this, I should add, is entirely moot in xkoranate. While there is a place to enter max points in xkoranate, it doesn't have any effect when you're using SQIS (the formula simply compares two teams' ranking point totals by dividing the smaller one by the larger one, and the smaller the resultant quotient, the more likely the higher-ranked team is to win).

Does that make sense? I mean, it's possible that the moral of the story here is not necessarily "don't set the max points higher than the best team," but rather "the more randomness you want, the larger the gap should be between Team A and your max points constant." Because, as TBI says above, some nations like randomness more than others. It's just a matter of preference, and everybody has to figure out what they prefer by toying around. There's no right or wrong way to do it. My personal opinion is that NSFS is heavily random even without mashing all the teams together via a too-high max points constant, and that's why I recommend keeping that constant the same as that of your highest-ranked team.
Last edited by Kagdazka and Pazhujebu on Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:42 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Baptism of Fire 25 Champions (The Pazhujeb Islands), Baptism of Fire 33 Runners-Up (Kagdazka), AOCAF 33 Runners-Up (Kagdazka and Pazhujebu), Baptism of Fire 43 Co-Hosts, Baptism of Fire 45 Co-Hosts

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Michael VII
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Postby Michael VII » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:17 pm

Wow, I actually understood that all! And it makes a lot of sense. I just wasn't really sure of how the scorinators worked, ratio/quotient wise. Thanks! :)
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Michael VII
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Postby Michael VII » Thu Apr 12, 2012 11:21 pm

Oh, and while I'm here, is it possible for Bonus Points to be added into the Rugby Union formula for xkoranate? At least for losses within 7 points, maybe its getting too deep into RP possibilities if we start adding the four tries bonus points?
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Liventia
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Liventia » Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:47 am

Michael VII wrote:Oh, and while I'm here, is it possible for Bonus Points to be added into the Rugby Union formula for xkoranate? At least for losses within 7 points, maybe its getting too deep into RP possibilities if we start adding the four tries bonus points?

It has to be done manually.
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Strong Oak
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Ex-Nation

Postby Strong Oak » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:37 am

.
Last edited by Strong Oak on Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

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95X
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Founded: Sep 30, 2004
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xkoranate modifications

Postby 95X » Mon Apr 30, 2012 8:06 pm

Something I was actually surprised with is how easy it is to create variants of existing sports in xkoranate.
For example (and I really use this):
Code: Select all
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<sport version="0.3">

<name>Volleyball—NVL</name>
   <discipline>Volleyball, NVL</discipline>
   <event/>
   <scorinator/> <!-- only one scorinator is needed for this event -->
   
   <paradigm>tennis</paradigm>
   <paradigmOptions>
      <int type="sets">5</int>
      <int type="winPoints">30</int>
      <int type="winMargin">2</int>
      <int type="endPoints">0</int>
      <int type="finalSetWinPoints">30</int>
      <int type="finalSetWinMargin">2</int>
      <int type="finalSetEndPoints">0</int>
      <double type="attackModifier">7</double>
   </paradigmOptions>
</sport>
For those who haven't seen one of the xml files before, it's the regular indoor volleyball file modified so all sets are played to 30 (versus the standard file were sets 1-4 are played to 25, and the final set played to 15).
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Licentiapacisterra
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Founded: Dec 17, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Licentiapacisterra » Wed May 09, 2012 10:12 am

I'm new to using scorinators, and was wondering whether somebody could tell me a good one, well, preferably one easy to use, to download, and just give me a run through basic scorination. I would be incredibly grateful. :)
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Wight
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Postby Wight » Thu May 10, 2012 4:40 am

.
Last edited by Wight on Sat Nov 02, 2013 8:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Licentiapacisterra
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Postby Licentiapacisterra » Thu May 10, 2012 8:12 am

Wight wrote:
Licentiapacisterra wrote:I'm new to using scorinators, and was wondering whether somebody could tell me a good one, well, preferably one easy to use, to download, and just give me a run through basic scorination. I would be incredibly grateful. :)


Xkoranate is the most flexible one, not too difficult to grasp if you are patient and you at least give this a read first...


Thank you Wight :)
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Kagdazka and Pazhujebu
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Posts: 649
Founded: Mar 04, 2010
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kagdazka and Pazhujebu » Tue May 22, 2012 4:31 pm

Well, here goes nothing.

It outputs to text files you have to create on a specifically-named folder on your C: drive, it's a nightmare to save leagues or tournaments in progress (though it is possible), and it's written in a programming language that is literally thirty years old, but after several years of work I can, with great shame, announce to NS Sport that I have created my own football scorinator: PazhuGen.

LINK

This is written in QBasic, which more or less means that nobody will be able to use it unless they have a time machine so that they can resurrect their old Zeos. However, if you do by some miracle learn how to use it (you won't, unless you jump through seven million hoops and take a three-week instruction course from me), it can do essentially anything that NSFS or xkoranate can do. It's ratio-based, generates 'realistic' scores, and can support custom fixtures, style modifiers, and mid-tournament saves. I'm happy with it, and I'll be using it for the 5256 KPFA League scorinations.

It is a little bit on the random side, though. In the VERY unlikely event that anyone other than me actually figures out how to operate this thing, I would not recommend it for use in a WCC-sanctioned tournament until I rewrite it. It seems to work good for domestic leagues though, especially for people who like a little bit more unpredictability than NSFS or xkoranate.

Realistically speaking, nobody else is ever going to attempt to use this thing. I just figured, since we've been in a mood to explore new methods of scorination lately, that I should make it public now that it's done.
Last edited by Kagdazka and Pazhujebu on Tue May 22, 2012 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The Federation of Kagdazka and Pazhujebu

Baptism of Fire 25 Champions (The Pazhujeb Islands), Baptism of Fire 33 Runners-Up (Kagdazka), AOCAF 33 Runners-Up (Kagdazka and Pazhujebu), Baptism of Fire 43 Co-Hosts, Baptism of Fire 45 Co-Hosts

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95X
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Capitalist Paradise

Re: PazhuGen

Postby 95X » Tue May 22, 2012 6:36 pm

Hey K&P, hope you're sitting down when you read this because today is your lucky day: :)
User removed tinypic link April 10, 2020.
I like some of how this is set up, the random style modifiers add an extra element of surprise to it. And since I know my way around QBasic, it was easy to rename the "fifavs" directory in the code to another directory.

(You should've seen vbl024.bas, which was a scorinator I used for the first season of the NVL before I switched to xkoranate for simplicity. See an above post in this topic for how I successfully modified one of the XML files to do things the way I wanted. I will say that vbl024.bas did include this socialistic plot known as "documentation." How dare my public high school teach me something that was obsolete even when I went through there in the late 90s!
But yes I miss QBasic, it was great since it let virtually anyone write their own programs, or if you were young simply make pretty pictures using the graphics modes. Sure you must have the runtime environment to use them, but it was universally available at the time and older how-to manuals could be found at thrift stores. Okay, enough reminiscing.
In summary: if xkoranate has the sport you want or you like nsfs better, I don't recommend programming your own scorinator.)
Last edited by 95X on Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Karditan
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Karditan » Tue May 29, 2012 11:51 am

In NSFS, my domestic baseball league is always reset to association football when I open it. Normally that isn't a problem, I just switch it back, but when I tried to sim half the season, then use the 'continue league in progress' function... it reset to association football. And you can't change the sport when continuing a league in progress. Am I doing something wrong, or is this a bug in NSFS overlooked because no one uses it for baseball? >.>
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Free South Califas
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Postby Free South Califas » Wed May 30, 2012 4:20 pm

I used it for my baseball league (scorinated several seasons I haven't posted yet), and I generally didn't use the continue-league function but now I'm wondering if I did and messed up one of my seasons. I'll have to check out the scores.

xkoranate also does baseball, I haven't used it for that but I find it less annoying for non-soccer sports in general.
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Kinitaria
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Postby Kinitaria » Wed May 30, 2012 9:47 pm

Kagdazka and Pazhujebu wrote:-snip-


Wow, Qbasic. There's some memories there...

Anyway, I was intrigued, so I fired up DOSbox and had a look. After inputting the teams of the Kinitar Premier Division (all given random style mods) and scrolling through the fixtures list, I fell in love with the results output. Maybe it's just me, but I'm a sucker for the vidiprinter/Teletext style look.

The league table looked very realistic and balanced (no team had scored less than 36 or more than 80, for instance, in a 38-game season. I have an issue with this when trying to use NSFS or xkoranate, but I digress). Random, definitely. The #1-ranked team in the league finished 4th, the #2-ranked team, 13th. Randomness equally apparent at the bottom - while I prefer an uncertain relegation battle, the top of the table isn't supposed to be as random (not in my league, but it might be perfect for others).

So, the aesthetic of the program is brilliant, it's more realistic than anything I've been able to produce in NSFS or xkoranate, the random style mods are a nice touch and it has a high level of randomness, which may be a good thing or not, depending on your league.
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Englonia
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Postby Englonia » Sat Jun 02, 2012 9:39 pm

when i scan a semicolon delimited list into xkorinate the competitors dont appear! why is this happening to me?
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Kagdazka and Pazhujebu
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Kagdazka and Pazhujebu » Tue Jun 05, 2012 3:05 pm

Kinitaria wrote:
Kagdazka and Pazhujebu wrote:-snip-


Wow, Qbasic. There's some memories there...

Anyway, I was intrigued, so I fired up DOSbox and had a look. After inputting the teams of the Kinitar Premier Division (all given random style mods) and scrolling through the fixtures list, I fell in love with the results output. Maybe it's just me, but I'm a sucker for the vidiprinter/Teletext style look.

The league table looked very realistic and balanced (no team had scored less than 36 or more than 80, for instance, in a 38-game season. I have an issue with this when trying to use NSFS or xkoranate, but I digress). Random, definitely. The #1-ranked team in the league finished 4th, the #2-ranked team, 13th. Randomness equally apparent at the bottom - while I prefer an uncertain relegation battle, the top of the table isn't supposed to be as random (not in my league, but it might be perfect for others).

So, the aesthetic of the program is brilliant, it's more realistic than anything I've been able to produce in NSFS or xkoranate, the random style mods are a nice touch and it has a high level of randomness, which may be a good thing or not, depending on your league.

Sweet! Glad you found it usable! It's not perfect by any stretch, but I too had good results with it when I used it for my latest First Division. Granted, the output is (for me at least) icky enough that I imported results into xkoranate's table generator, and I also saw quite a bit of randomness (Iguani finishing second, Angels finishing eighth, etc.), but I was OK with that.

Englonia wrote:when i scan a semicolon delimited list into xkorinate the competitors dont appear! why is this happening to me?

You need to be saving the list in the appropriate unicode format. Which is... fuck, I can't remember. UTF-16... I think? LE or CH will correct me if I'm wrong though.
The Federation of Kagdazka and Pazhujebu

Baptism of Fire 25 Champions (The Pazhujeb Islands), Baptism of Fire 33 Runners-Up (Kagdazka), AOCAF 33 Runners-Up (Kagdazka and Pazhujebu), Baptism of Fire 43 Co-Hosts, Baptism of Fire 45 Co-Hosts

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Free South Califas
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Postby Free South Califas » Tue Jun 05, 2012 6:38 pm

Thanks Paz!
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Englonia
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Founded: Jan 07, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Englonia » Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:00 am

Kinitaria wrote:
You need to be saving the list in the appropriate unicode format. Which is... fuck, I can't remember. UTF-16... I think? LE or CH will correct me if I'm wrong though.


how do i do that?
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Osarius
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Osarius » Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:58 pm

Englonia wrote:
Kinitaria wrote:
You need to be saving the list in the appropriate unicode format. Which is... fuck, I can't remember. UTF-16... I think? LE or CH will correct me if I'm wrong though.


how do i do that?

When you save a file in notepad, next to the save button at the bottom left of the save window, there is a drop down option for "Encoding". You should be able to select it there.

Out of curiosity though, can you post a sample of what you're trying to import? I think it has to be a certain format to work, like you can't import style modifiers for example (unless I've been doing it wrong, lol)
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Englonia
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Posts: 524
Founded: Jan 07, 2012
Ex-Nation

Postby Englonia » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:46 pm

Osarius wrote:
Englonia wrote:
how do i do that?

When you save a file in notepad, next to the save button at the bottom left of the save window, there is a drop down option for "Encoding". You should be able to select it there.

Out of curiosity though, can you post a sample of what you're trying to import? I think it has to be a certain format to work, like you can't import style modifiers for example (unless I've been doing it wrong, lol)


An competitor list mad in notepad, also there is no utf-16 in my notepad
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Free South Califas
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Founded: May 22, 2012
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Postby Free South Califas » Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:48 pm

Try WordPad maybe, or search for free UTF-16 text editors? http://www.freshmeat.net
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On Autism/"R-word"
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Anarchy Works/Open Borders
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I'm autistic and (proud, but) thus not a "social detective", so be warned: I might misread or accidentally offend you.
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Englonia
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Posts: 524
Founded: Jan 07, 2012
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Postby Englonia » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:15 am

i changed it to utf-16 and it still doesnt work!
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Osarius
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Founded: Mar 21, 2006
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Osarius » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:21 am

Englonia wrote:i changed it to utf-16 and it still doesnt work!

This is why I asked for a sample of what's in the file. It could be how you've got it formatted.
Monarch: Alexander III | First Minister: Mathieu Lupin | Population: ~125 million | Capital: Burningham, Mount Crown
Civilisation Index: 13.43 • Tier 7, Level 2, Type 5
Current Project(s): a discord scorination bot, and a football manager knock-off

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Englonia
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Founded: Jan 07, 2012
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Postby Englonia » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:45 pm

alright heres the whole file:

Maro Llosd;Chevy (Chevy Corvette);195;
Richard Tsler;Chevy (Chevy Corvette);195;
George Langford;Ferrari (Ferrari 250GT);296;
Sauel Murras;Ferrari (Ferrari 250GT);296;
Thouas Zhitt;Aston Martin (Aston Martin DB2/4);125;
John Brett;Aston Martin (Aston Martin DB2/4);125;
Michael Dalton;Austin (Austin 100-6);117;
Daniel Gregors;Austin (Austin 100-6);117;
Alexander Eiunerls;Triumph (Triumph TR3);95;
Jiu Huntles;Triumph (Triumph TR3);95;
Ronert Fuller;AC (AC Ace);100;
Zill Calvin;AC (AC Ace);100;
Jaues Singleton;Porsche (Porsche 718 RSK);142;
Rico Hoss;Porsche (Porsche 718 RSK);142;
Grahau Peterson;Jaguar (Jaguar XK150);165;
Bon Houe;Jaguar (Jaguar XK150);165;
Ros Jacoson;Aston Martin (Aston Martin DBR1);250;
Eaul Ronertson;Aston Martin (Aston Martin DBR1);250;
Adau Francis;Ferrari (Ferrari 250TR);260;
Alan Mitt;Ferrari (Ferrari 250TR);260;
Rsan Rscroft; Porsche (Porsche 356A);110;
Alexander Megan; Porsche (Porsche 356A);110;
Henrs Dugan; Teau Dugan (Chevy Corvette);195;
Tons Zentzorth; Zentzorth Motorworks (Ferrari 250GT);296;
Steuhan McIntsre; Mcintsre Motors (Aston Martin DB2/4);125;
Bruce anderson; anderson car sales (Austin 100-6);117;
Gars Randall; Ecurie Randall (Triumph TR3);95;
Chris davidson; Chris davidson racing dept (AC Ace);100;
Stuart Lazence; Lazence car sales (Jaguar XK150);165;
Evan Louis; Evan Louis (Porsche 356A);110;
The Commonwealth of Englonia
Amor Nunquam Mori, (our love (for this country) can never die)
Join my game show!
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Darmen
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Posts: 7339
Founded: Jan 16, 2011
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Darmen » Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:47 pm

Englonia wrote:snip
Try deleting the last semi-colon from each entry. It should work then.
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Champions: CoH 51, CR 13, GCF Test 9, GCF Test 13, WBC 25, QWC 7 Runners-up: CoH 53, CR 10, GCF Test 11, T20C 2, T20C 4, RLWC 10, WBC 42
Third: CR 20, T20C 10, RLWC 20, R7WC 4, WBC 21, BC 6 Host: CR 9, RUWC 18, RUWC 26, RLWC 12, RLWC 18, BC 6, BC 10, WVE 4

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