Scorinators (OOC Discussion)

by **Tarrentum** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 4:53 am

Vephrall wrote:As TBI said in the opening post, the new NSFS will be appearing later this month; as of this writing the release is likely to occur on June 20.

WOOO!!!!

by **The Babbage Islands** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 5:04 am

Tarrentum wrote:
The Babbage Islands wrote:Although fixing the Excel export issue is top of my list right now, in principle Miscellanator should work comfortably with any environment where head-to-head matches between two teams or individuals are the norm. Got a database you want me to look at?

TBI, where are you at on this? I'm not expecting it to be complete right here and now, just an update would be nice, is all.

This is not going to go quickly, I fear. The exported .xls file works fine when I open it in OOo, but pukes in MarinerCalc as it did in Excel 2003. I'm trying to see what's being introduced in the export process, and that's both tedious and a time sink for someone with a day job.

by **Tarrentum** » Fri Jun 11, 2010 9:52 am

Not to further belabor this but I downloaded the ODS software and you Miscellanator opens up at row 22 on my Internet Explorer (is it even supposed to open there?) and I can't see the top...so I'm screwed all around.

Alright, maybe if I got my head out of my ass and realized I need to open the ODS program FIRST, then the miscellanator - I'm all good.

However a somewhat technical question for TBI: How are the ranks weighted? Is 1 better than 10 or is 10 better than 1?

by **The Babbage Islands** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 2:57 am

Tarrentum wrote:Not to further belabor this but I downloaded the ODS software and you Miscellanator opens up at row 22 on my Internet Explorer (is it even supposed to open there?) and I can't see the top...so I'm screwed all around.

Alright, maybe if I got my head out of my ass and realized I need to open the ODS program FIRST, then the miscellanator - I'm all good.

However a somewhat technical question for TBI: How are the ranks weighted? Is 1 better than 10 or is 10 better than 1?

Higher is better, to make it easier to use existing rankings. Glad you're all good now.

Liventia wrote:If anyone wants a look at basic Excel scorinators I have for tennis and cycling, just give me a shout. The cycling one's been used for two events already on here.

Liventia subsequently TGed me, and I now host his tennis and cycling scorinators here.

by **The Fanboyists** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:39 am

Pardon my ignorance, but what is ODS?

It reminds me suspiciously of DOS. Even if there were a bunch of DOS mode games that I used to love.

by **Zwangzug** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:46 am

The Babbage Islands wrote:Liventia subsequently TGed me, and I now host his tennis and cycling scorinators here.

That link doesn't work (but it's easy enough to find them from the main site).

The Fanboyists: ODS is the file format for Open Office spreadsheets, part of the free Open Office package (they have word processing and other programs too).

by **The Fanboyists** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:55 am

Ah. Thank you for the explanation, Zwang.

by **The Babbage Islands** » Sat Jun 12, 2010 6:58 am

Zwangzug wrote:
The Babbage Islands wrote:Liventia subsequently TGed me, and I now host his tennis and cycling scorinators here.
That link doesn't work (but it's easy enough to find them from the main site).

Fixing the link now. It helps when you name the file correctly. Pfft.

by **Commerce Heights** » Sat Jun 19, 2010 8:05 pm

xkoranate 0.3.0 is now released for Windows and Mac OS. This, the first version offering complete support for summer and winter Olympic sports, includes over four hundred events in fifty-four disciplines (all Olympic disciplines plus American football, baseball, Gaelic football, korfball, lacrosse, poker, rugby league and union, softball, and ultimate).

by **Vephrall** » Sun Jun 20, 2010 9:36 am

Coincidentally, the long-awaited NSFS 3.0.0 is now available. This new version is vastly easier to use than previous incarnations of NSFS and supports interdivisional play, three built-in sports (with more to follow), customizable tiebreakers, and more.

by **Tarrentum** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:53 am

[OOC: The original of this was badly mispelled and had horrible grammar.

Veph, though I used NSFS 3.0 for my soccer league but how in the world does the Cup structure work? It was the most confusing part as to how it chose teams and how you can actually create a cup successfully where X number of teams play a knockout than the WINNERS move on. I had 6 teams but could not get the Tournament to come out correctly. Should I set all teams into the First Round? Then make a second round with 0 new teams? Then make a "Final"? With six teams it doesn't work becuase THREE would advance and NSFS won't let you choose the matches for the tournament. Maybe the problem lies in that there HAS to be an even number of teams advancing in order to create the tournament correctly. But then we are left with the issue of BYEs. How does the system choose who to give the bye to?

Also, 'What? No instructions?' Feels like we're going to the way of CH here with no instructions.

In all though I LOVE this scorinator as it is much easier (and less bulky file-wise) than 2.07. Good job Veph!

by **CCOPO** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:57 am

All I hear about for soccer scorinators is the NSFS "Series". Are there any other soccer scorinators?

by **Vescia** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 9:30 am

CCOPO wrote:All I hear about for soccer scorinators is the NSFS "Series". Are there any other soccer scorinators?

Yes, though most of them are out of date. There's Leagion and the old-fashioned method of dice. It's better to use either xkorinate or NSFS, though.

by **Tarrentum** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:04 am

xkorniate was just updated, so it's not out of date.

by **Sorthern Northland** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:24 am

Tarrentum wrote: I had 6 teams but could not get the Tournament to come out correctly. Should I set all teams into the First Round? Then make a second round with 0 new teams? Then make a "Final"? With six teams it doesn't work becuase THREE would advance and NSFS won't let you choose the matches for the tournament. Maybe the problem lies in that there HAS to be an even number of teams advancing in order to create the tournament correctly. But then we are left with the issue of BYEs. How does the system choose who to give the bye to?

The logical thing for a six team cup as far as I can see would be the following structure:

4 teams enter in first round.
2 teams enter in the second round/semi-final
the two winners of the semi-finals play the final.

If later rounds are set to have new teams entering in them then it seems that the teams listed first enter the earliest as seen in this example. To chose certain matches, if in the example show you wanted Theale to play Woodley in the first round, then simply leave the randomize team order box unchecked, and the first listed team plays the second listed, the third listed the fourth listed (and so on for bigger tournaments).

Edit: Oh, and while I'm here NSFS needs the option for replays to be allowed in cups.

Think there's something else I feel it's missing as well, but can't actually remember what that is. :unsure:

by **Osarius** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:33 am

Tarrentum wrote:Veph, though I used NSFS 3.0 for my soccer league but how in the world does the Cup structure work? It was the most confusing part as to how it chose teams and how you can actually create a cup successfully where X number of teams play a knockout than the WINNERS move on. I had 6 teams but could not get the Tournament to come out correctly. Should I set all teams into the First Round? Then make a second round with 0 new teams? Then make a "Final"? With six teams it doesn't work becuase THREE would advance and NSFS won't let you choose the matches for the tournament. Maybe the problem lies in that there HAS to be an even number of teams advancing in order to create the tournament correctly. But then we are left with the issue of BYEs. How does the system choose who to give the bye to?

I tested a 6 team cup quickly to see whether this was simple to resolve, and found that if I set up the rounds as follows:

First Round (4 new, 4 total, 2 advancing)
Semi Finals (2 new, 4 total, 2 advancing)
Final (0 new, 2 total, 1 advancing)

I get the correct cup structure...
Then, if I don't randomize the team order, it goes like this:

Team A vs Team B
Team C vs Team D

Team E vs Team F
Winner 1 vs Winner 2

If I randomize the team order, it goes like this (for example):

Team A vs Team D
Team C vs Team B

Winner 1 vs Team F
Team E vs Winner 2

So, as far as I can tell - hopefully Veph can set the record straight if I have got this wrong - the teams enter the rounds in the order they are listed... eg. if you have twelve teams, and only eight play in the first round, then the first eight in your team list will be entered into the first round to make a "team pool". Those teams are then randomized and matchups completed... then they move to the next round, where the next four teams are added, the "team pool" is randomized again etc etc

The teams also play each other in the order listed if you dont randomize the team order... so if you want a seeded draw, plot your bracket first and dont tick randomize. So for the example I gave, I might list the teams like so:

A5 seed
A4 seed
A6 seed
A3 seed
N5 seed
N4 seed
N6 seed
N3 seed

The problems arise when you want to do the next round seeded as well, though... because as far as I can tell, you can't program it to make the first round winners play the correct opposition in the next round. I havent figured out how to resume a competition in progress and solve that issue yet, but I'm sure thats the way around it.

(and as I preview this, I see Sorth has explained at least half of what I just said, lol... good to know I got that right, then)

by **Tarrentum** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:58 am

Osarius wrote:The problems arise when you want to do the next round seeded as well, though... because as far as I can tell, you can't program it to make the first round winners play the correct opposition in the next round. I havent figured out how to resume a competition in progress and solve that issue yet, but I'm sure thats the way around it.

I was assuming that the A v. B; C v. D structure was in place. I understand now how to implement "BYE's" for your top teams. But let's say, going back to my example, that you have to have an even number of teams moving on to the next round or the system falls apart. I guess...as I think about it...that's only common sense in RL too.

However, your last paragraph hit the nail on the head. You can only let NSFS decide the bracket and can't tell it to have Team F (1st round bye, highest overall) play the lowest seed - though that may depend on how you set up the first round. In all, it's a bit complicated and I state again: this should have had a manual included.

Not to knock on FootySim (cuz I DO like it) but TBI put a help file up when his Miscellanator came online, why can't NSFS and xkoranate do the same?

ISideWith UK · by **Eastfield Lodge** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:20 am

You've definitely put the emphasis on easy to use Veph.

You know, this thread should be stickied, it could be helpful in alleviating almost constant scorinator problems from other thread, and as a place for announcement for new scorinators, etc.

by **Vephrall** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 3:25 pm

Tarrentum wrote:(re: seeding of teams after first round)

At present there is no facility to reseed or reorder the teams after the first round. I'll see what I can do about providing such an implementation in a later update, though.

Also, just to confirm: Sorth is right; when determining which teams start in which round, it's done in the order in which you've entered them in the list. This probably could be made a bit clearer, so hopefully I'll find a good way to do that.

Tarrentum wrote:Not to knock on FootySim (cuz I DO like it) but TBI put a help file up when his Miscellanator came online, why can't NSFS and xkoranate do the same?

I'm actually working on documentation for the new NSFS as we speak and hope to be able to have that done in the next few days.

by **The Babbage Islands** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:29 pm

As a public service to event organisers who will use NSFS 3, here are schedules the scorinator appears to use for league play based on the order in which you list the teams.

by **Vescia** » Mon Jun 21, 2010 11:48 pm

Hey, Veph! NSFS3 is great! It's really easy, and yet produces an exciting realistic cup or season! I can just imagine Billy Mays do an ad for this...

"HI BILLY MAYS HERE, FOR NSFOOTYSIM. IT'S SO EASY, EVEN YOUR KIDS COULD SCORINATE!" :lol:

by **Undeadzombiee** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:51 am

NSFS 3 always freezes whenever I select New League, or New Cup, but doesn't when I click "import league from NSFS 2". But I can't really figure out NSFS 2 (leagues), so does anyone have any advice for making NSFS 3 not freeze up?

by **Tarrentum** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:53 am

Delete and Reinstall?

by **Undeadzombiee** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 6:56 am

Tarrentum wrote:Delete and Reinstall?

Thanks, but it didn't work. I will now put on my genius face: :ugeek:

by **Melki** » Tue Jun 22, 2010 3:52 pm

How do you use xkorinate, Commerce? Can you make a user's guide??

Scorinators (OOC Discussion)

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