Scorinators (OOC Discussion)

[Filindostan]

Hey guys. It might be a silly question, but how can I get a playoff done with xkoranate-0.3.3

The answer is there is no such feature in xkoranate and you may only do it by scorinating one stage per event, having single result and input the teams for that stage manually.

[Northwest Kalactin]

Hey guys. It might be a silly question, but how can I get a playoff done with xkoranate-0.3.3

The answer is there is no such feature in xkoranate and you may only do it by scorinating one stage per event, having single result and input the teams for that stage manually.

Tip for doing playoffs with xkoranate: rather than creating a new input file for each round, just delete the teams that have been eliminated. For association football, you can use NSFS (although I wouldn’t recommend this for an international tournament as it uses multiplicative style mods, which are much less preferred to xkoranates additive style mods.)

[Hebitaka]

The answer is there is no such feature in xkoranate and you may only do it by scorinating one stage per event, having single result and input the teams for that stage manually.

Tip for doing playoffs with xkoranate: rather than creating a new input file for each round, just delete the teams that have been eliminated. For association football, you can use NSFS (although I wouldn’t recommend this for an international tournament as it uses multiplicative style mods, which are much less preferred to xkoranates additive style mods.)

I have been doing that I was thinking there could be more comfortable ways. But still, thanks guys.

[The Fortem]

Above says it all. I have no idea how it works and stuff.

[Lisander]

This belongs here.

[Starblaydia]

This belongs here.

Merged.

Above says it all. I have no idea how it works and stuff.

The Fortem, this is the thread you need for help with scorinators. It might help if you mention which scorinator you're trying to use, and what for.

[The Fortem]

I'm trying to use Xkornate to do baseball, however it won't set up and rather I have no idea what to do.

[Lisander]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8HAtCLr-jg Someone made a video on setting up xkoranate. It should be enough.

[Sarzonia]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8HAtCLr-jg Someone made a video on setting up xkoranate. It should be enough.

I don't think the video included anything on saving files in a group stage of a competition if that's what The Fortem is looking to do.

[Tequilo]

The Xkorinate CE project is a commendable effort by good souls of the NS sports community to keep XK alive and kicking. Can I ask if there is any progress on the Mac version? Not nagging. And unfortunately not offering either as this is not within my skill set; just wondering how this is progressing and worrying slightly as I’m holding back on mac OS updates just to keep Xkorinate running! Is there hope for a new Mac XK?

[Northwest Kalactin]

The Xkorinate CE project is a commendable effort by good souls of the NS sports community to keep XK alive and kicking. Can I ask if there is any progress on the Mac version? Not nagging. And unfortunately not offering either as this is not within my skill set; just wondering how this is progressing and worrying slightly as I’m holding back on mac OS updates just to keep Xkorinate running! Is there hope for a new Mac XK?

I don’t think we’ve gotten much work in on the 64 bit version yet for the new OS.

I had the problem while running OS Catalina where I wasn’t able to run xkoranate, although I was able to find a VM online that works online for it that I’ll link below. I don’t have much knowledge with c++ or Qt app development yet, so most of my knowledge is limited to sport files and what different paradigms across the program do.

Link to Oracle VBox: https://www.virtualbox.org/
Link to Directions that Apox linked in the NSS discord server: https://trendblog.net/virtualbox-windows-10-macos/

If you don’t want to have to set up a VM and run xkoranate on it, I can’t really offer a timetable right now for when the program will be user friendly, although I wouldn’t necessarily expect it to be in the very near future.

[Tequilo]

Thanks NWK for the update. I do have a windows laptop held in reserve so there are options for me but I was hoping not to have to go there!

[Liventia]

The Xkorinate CE project is a commendable effort by good souls of the NS sports community to keep XK alive and kicking. Can I ask if there is any progress on the Mac version? Not nagging. And unfortunately not offering either as this is not within my skill set; just wondering how this is progressing and worrying slightly as I’m holding back on mac OS updates just to keep Xkorinate running! Is there hope for a new Mac XK?

As an alternative, are you not able to partition your drive and install Mojave on the partition? You wouldn't need it to be very big if it's just xkoranate and a web browser to post scores. It's what I currently do (11.0.1 Big Sur boot drive, 10.14 Mojave on a partition).

[Tequilo]

As an alternative, are you not able to partition your drive and install Mojave on the partition? You wouldn't need it to be very big if it's just xkoranate and a web browser to post scores. It's what I currently do (11.0.1 Big Sur boot drive, 10.14 Mojave on a partition).

Ah yes Liv thank you, that is exactly what I’ll do. Never occurred. And then I can also partition my entire NS-life separate from RL in a very practical way. Partitioning works for me!

[Cayucas]

I don't usually RP in NS Sports and it's been too long since I last RP'd in the first place, but I've just started digging into the concepts and mechanics behind Scorinators. It's piqued my interest as something I want to at least look into further and this seems like the place to direct my curiosities. If it isn't, feel free to direct me to which threads might be best. Apologies in advance if this post ends up being a bit too loaded or my questions have easy answers I missed.

Are there means to verify a host's scorinator results, or do scorinator systems ultimately rely on trust in the host of a tournament to not fudge the numbers? Based on the research I've done so far, it seems like the latter is the case. I'd be comfortable with the latter, but the idea of a means of verification (or if a means of verification is wanted at all in NS Sports RP's) is something I wonder about.

In my research so far, it also seems to me that the primary variables people change to affect scorinator results are the player rankings and the RP Bonus. Strategy modifier (ie. Defense vs Offense) is also something I'm seeing. I'm assuming player ranking is dictated by the consensus of influential forum members and the community at large? Are there scorinators that consider additional player controlled variables? If so, what would those variables be and are there specifics about how players define their values? Is there a breakdown/summary somewhere explaining how some of the more prominent scorinators calculate their results?

If I may, I'd also like to ask something less related to the mechanics and more related to the logic behind scorinators. I noticed dice are cited as a no-go in NS Sports. In my experience with dice-based RP's, they're fairly empirical in their mechanics. Is the condemning of dice here a subforum-culture sort of thing, or is there a more empiric reason that I'm unaware about? If I had to guess the empirical reasons, using scorinators over dice sets makes for a more standardized, cross-compatible experience while dice methodology lends itself to a more homebrewed methodology that would be inappropriate for application in this forum specifically. My first impressions are that RPs here are a lot more unified than NS or II.

[Liventia]

Are there means to verify a host's scorinator results, or do scorinator systems ultimately rely on trust in the host of a tournament to not fudge the numbers? Based on the research I've done so far, it seems like the latter is the case.

Occasionally, in a two-host tournament, the hosts can cross-check, but even then it's reliant on the host(s) being trustworthy. By and large, we haven't had issues in the 18-or-so years we've been doing this.

I'm assuming player ranking is dictated by the consensus of influential forum members and the community at large?

They are calculated by formulae based on previous results. There is no influence from members/the community on who gets ranked number 1, only the actual results.

Are there scorinators that consider additional player controlled variables?

Rank, RP/host bonus, random numbers, and style modifiers are the general variables. In certain sports, like baseball or cricket, a stadium modifier is sometimes used. Otherwise, for established tournaments, there are generally no other variables.

If I may, I'd also like to ask something less related to the mechanics and more related to the logic behind scorinators. I noticed dice are cited as a no-go in NS Sports. In my experience with dice-based RP's, they're fairly empirical in their mechanics. Is the condemning of dice here a subforum-culture sort of thing, or is there a more empiric reason that I'm unaware about?

You can't add rank, RP/host bonus, or style/stadium modifiers to dice easily. Plus, how do you scorinate a track race with dice?

[Graintfjall]

Sounds like you've done your research so sorry if I'm repeating anything you already know. I think the basic story is that in its infancy in 2003-4, NS Sports players were more inclined to be tech-minded code monkeys than D&D-minded RPG wizards, and so when a desire for something more complex than basic dice rolls emerged, the route taken was to code scorinators based on RNG rather than to work out and agree on a more intricate dice system.

Are there means to verify a host's scorinator results, or do scorinator systems ultimately rely on trust in the host of a tournament to not fudge the numbers?

Ultimately relies on trust. Here is an example of a host posting a screenshot of the scorinator output; it's possible to share the saved output files (though these could be edited); there have been users who've offered to screen-share their scorinating. But none of these are absolutely iron-clad. There is a convention (not always followed) that hosts will turn over scorination of games in which their teams play in final/knockout rounds to a neutral third party, though.

Also, NS Sports users are invested in the results and pretty eagle-eyed about spotting even minor errors. Here's an example of a user who fabricated tournament results, but through close scrutiny of the results was exposed.

In my research so far, it also seems to me that the primary variables people change to affect scorinator results are the player rankings and the RP Bonus. Strategy modifier (ie. Defense vs Offense) is also something I'm seeing. I'm assuming player ranking is dictated by the consensus of influential forum members and the community at large?

In most sports, the rankings are determined according to a set formula, usually on the basis of past performance in recent tournaments. The KPB ranking is one example. It varies by sport, but fine tuning of these rankings may be done by those entrusted with the rankings, or it may be something that's voted on by committees (usually consisting of people who've participated in previous editions of the specific tournament). The specifics of the formulas vary a bit by sport and tournament nature but are usually posted on public Google Docs sheets so people can see the working. In smaller tournaments a host might devise their own ranking system, but it would usually operate on similar principles.

Some tournaments operate differently. In the Olympics, each user sets their own player rankings (though there are rules in place to ensure a level playing field). Some tournaments have no rankings at all and are solely dependent on RP bonus and randomness.

Almost all ranking systems are empirical. There is no real tradition in NS Sports of value judgement rankings where one user is ranked higher than another purely based on the consensus of "influential forum members", such as used to be the case in RL US college football (gridiron).

Are there scorinators that consider additional player controlled variables? If so, what would those variables be and are there specifics about how players define their values?

It varies. For most of the big sports, namely the sports that have their own individual entry in the history post, no.

I believe the big exception would be racing (motorsports). The Racing Scorinator has several variables included. There used to be a similar scorinator for road cycling events. A minor example of an additional modifier is found in BASEinator, a baseball scorinator, which allows for park factors - though these are really just an extension of offensive style modifiers. There have been some minor or custom sports that have used custom scorinators, particularly in combat sports, but these tournaments tend to be fairly infrequent.

A common feature of scorinators allowing extra attributes is maintaining overall balance. For example, GOLFinator (used to scorinate golf, surprisingly) allowed users to set values of 1-6 for different skills e.g. driving, putting. But the overall golfer had to have each number from 1 to 6 represented, meaning they all had the same overall score regardless of how the sub-values were distributed. When I ran an alpine skiing competition, skiers could have different values for "speed" and "technique" - but the overall sum had to add up to 10 regardless of how those 10 were distributed.

If I may, I'd also like to ask something less related to the mechanics and more related to the logic behind scorinators. I noticed dice are cited as a no-go in NS Sports. In my experience with dice-based RP's, they're fairly empirical in their mechanics. Is the condemning of dice here a subforum-culture sort of thing, or is there a more empiric reason that I'm unaware about? If I had to guess the empirical reasons, using scorinators over dice sets makes for a more standardized, cross-compatible experience while dice methodology lends itself to a more homebrewed methodology that would be inappropriate for application in this forum specifically. My first impressions are that RPs here are a lot more unified than NS or II.

Mainly a culture thing. Partly, dissatisfaction with dice simply stems from a desire for realism. Dice were used for the first football (soccer) tournaments, but the spread of results produced by rolling dice doesn't really map correctly to the spread of goals in RL football games. (Teams score 1 goal more often than 1/6 times, and 5 goals less often than 1/6 times.) A more complex dice system could be used (such as the "Howzthat!" dice game for cricket) but integrating it with RP bonus would then require some sort of homebrewed formula. Additionally, scorinators are now far more widely available and easily accessible than they used to be. NSFS version 2 required creating custom .xml files, which, while not particularly difficult, was a level of complexity that put off some people or led to problems when hosts made technical errors. Once NSFS3 and xkoranate came out, anyone could run large numbers of scorinations in numerous sports with nothing more than some simple data entry (or importing a premade notepad file) and some clicks. Any sort of dice based system, in order to both replicate verisimilitude of results and to incorporate RP bonus and ranking, would inevitably be more complex, so there's no real demand for such.

It's a bit like RL, where football is the most popular global sport in part because of its simplicity. A D&D-style scorination with multiple attributes and dice rolls could produce a fair tournament. It could also lead to lengthy haggling over minor rules. In a four-person campaign this can be time consuming. In a 180-person tournament, this is simply unworkable. By contrast, to participate in the World Cup, one of the biggest ongoing RPs in all NS, all you have to do is say "I sign up", and then the host combine just two numbers - rank and offensive modifier (the latter not even being required) - to produce a score. Forum culture has evolved to prefer the latter.

The final factor concerns winning. In dice-based campaign games, you do not "win" on an individual level. You might complete the GM's puzzles or finish the quest or level up, but there's not the equivalent to "X beat Y by 1 to 0". In NS Sports naturally winning matters (while everyone tries to pretend they don't care about it!) and there's a demand for a straightforward, easily replicable system of producing fair results. Which led to scorination becoming the default.

[La Republique Azertienne]

snip.

Whilst I wouldn't recommend these if for whatever reason you're looking to scorinate a major tournament, for domestic leagues/pure RP personal enjoyment, you can find a trove of sports dice simulation games all over- here and here are two of the biggest troves. I've home-brewed a football one based on mechanics from a few games, but in my opinion for speed/having some control over the results I recommend Match Day Soccer, assuming you're not looking to play out every moment of the match.

[Hebitaka]

Can anyone give me the xkorinator with super over and test matches in cricket?

[Northwest Kalactin]

Can anyone give me the xkorinator with super over and test matches in cricket?

As far as super over goes, I think there are a few of the cricket folks that have the .xml file.

Xkoranate currently doesn’t support Test Cricket, the main scorinator for Tests is Redballer, but make sure to download a copy to your own google drive rather than directly editing it.

[Cayucas]

[Snip]

Your experiences and answers have been thorough and insightful. They're helpful to better understand the mechanics and why NS Sports has its unique methodology. In all, just what I needed.
Thank you kindly folks for taking the time!

[Darmen]

Xkoranate currently doesn’t support Test Cricket, the main scorinator for Tests is Redballer, but make sure to download a copy to your own google drive rather than directly editing it.

In addition to Redballer, there is also ApoxBaller which is an improvement on Redballer, but does still have a few bugs, so be careful when deciding whether to use the results. As with Redballer, make sure to make a local copy on your own drive rather than editing the public copy.

[Hebitaka]

Can I have a group draw software.(Is it okay for me to ask it in the Scorinator thread?)

[Northwest Kalactin]

Can I have a group draw software.(Is it okay for me to ask it in the Scorinator thread?)

yup, I would advise using the list randomizer on this site, although there is really no rule on what to use for a draw, you can do something like this, although I usually just paste the teams into a spreadsheet by the pot, and then randomize the range.

[Bluecliff]

If this is the wrong place, time, or topic please let me know. Is there such a thing as an election scorinator/simulator? It seems like those who RP domestic politics in their nation in other forums seem to come up with the results themselves, or use topic polls and other input from the community to decide the results of elections. My preference getting started with fleshing out Bluecliff's political life would be something more in line with what seems to be the culture here - that is, I'd prefer to use a random number generator weighted by different factors to produce election results, then RP the story around those results.

My coding skills and my preferences are not aligned, though. I put together something fairly rudimentary in Excel to generate vote shares in a given "district" for a given "party" within a random range based on the district's demographics, but it's not working as well as I'd like to and creating it is essentially the extent of my experience with Excel or any type of coding.

Does anyone happen to know of anything useful, or if there's something I've missed in an (admittedly superficial) scroll through domestic political/election RP styles on the forums? Thanks!
Don't know if this is also the place to talk to the community as a whole but I'm loving the BoF so far and, at least from a month of lurking, everyone seems wonderful