[TWI-ONLY] [OOC] : IFAF Western Isles Cup 2018

[Corindia]

So are we or are we not having qualifiers? I know that for CEFA at least it seems like we should not

[Orsandia]

So are we or are we not having qualifiers? I know that for CEFA at least it seems like we should not

We are still going through with them. Dorm, remember what we talked about a while back ?

[Corindia]

Wouldn't it be easier to just not though? Especially if there aren't enough teams entered to begin with

[Orsandia]

Wouldn't it be easier to just not though? Especially if there aren't enough teams entered to begin with

If it comes down to it, then yeah.

Also mind sending me your bid logo so I can update the thread and factbook ? Thats the one we are using for this years cup.

[Corindia]

https://imgur.com/a/ZdIelai
There you go.
Will it be possible to rig the seeding so that as many national rivalries as possible are exacerbated ? We should make the cup spicy

[Orsandia]

https://imgur.com/a/ZdIelai
There you go.
Will it be possible to rig the seeding so that as many national rivalries as possible are exacerbated ? We should make the cup spicy

Seeding should be randomized, but that would be funny. I think we could do this, but I will leave this decision to Dormill and Stiura to make.

EDIT : Sorry, I misinterpreted the question earlier. I think it would be a worthwhile proposal although I am unaware of any serious rivalries.

[Cosie]

https://imgur.com/a/ZdIelai
There you go.
Will it be possible to rig the seeding so that as many national rivalries as possible are exacerbated ? We should make the cup spicy

The sensible option would be to seed the groups in a way that'd minimise the risk of violent clashes between rival nations.

Doing it the opposite way would be infinitely more entertaining, though.

[Polar Svalbard]

Svalbardian hooligans will beat the shit out of each other and other teams... if they can stand.

[Samudera]

May the Norstham v EUSR final's fun happened again.

[Corindia]

For real though, as much as I may joke about it, IC I'm not going to have this be a complete unmoderated riot the whole time, but I do want to do a few stories on hooliganism because I think that'd be genuinely fun/interesting and play into preexisting rivalries well

[Dormill and Stiura]

For real though, as much as I may joke about it, IC I'm not going to have this be a complete unmoderated riot the whole time, but I do want to do a few stories on hooliganism because I think that'd be genuinely fun/interesting and play into preexisting rivalries well

If rival nations wind up playing together, I’ll leave it between them and you on whether or not it’ll be filled with hooliganism.

[Negarakita]

May the Norstham v EUSR final's fun happened again.

We threw a grenade and like 3 people died

[Corindia]

Hey, so for CEFA, should I make a qualifiers/friendlies schedule and start using one of those league simulators to model it? And what sort of time-frame should I do it over

[Dormill and Stiura]

Hey, so for CEFA, should I make a qualifiers/friendlies schedule and start using one of those league simulators to model it? And what sort of time-frame should I do it over

Use LeagueSim if you have enough teams to play, use xkornate if you don't. As for schedules and fixtures, LeagueSim does generate fixtures before you start simulating so you can use that to build a schedule. As for xkornate, I am not sure if it is possible to build a fixture and schedule before generating results but I'll toy around with it on my end and get back to you in due time.

Edit: After some review, it is possible to build a fixture based on the order of the teams in a group. I made a test of a CEFA Qualifying tournament with the following roster; COR (Corindia), MES (Menna Shuli), FAH (Fahraxi), SNJ (San Jimenez), and INS (Iosnil). The fixture would be (in a one-round round robin tournament) MES vs. INS and FAH vs. SNJ with COR getting a bye day on Matchday 1, and so on for the remaining matchdays. So it is entirely possible to build a fixture and schedule before matches are simulated on both versions, which is good for us.

[Corindia]

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=444959&p=34269600#p34269600
Do you guys think one match a day or two would be better if I'm just having the teams each play each other once? When does the cup start?

[Dormill and Stiura]

So I just took a count of things, and I have both good news and bad news.

Good News: As of today, we have 33 teams that are signed up in their respective confederations.

Bad News: In order to have 32 in the Isles Cup, the Qualifying Tournaments for both the GFA and MSFC have to be nullified, permitting all of their member teams to go to the Isles Cup.

Any alternatives? The only thing I can think of is expanding the MSFC's berths to 16 teams first, then we give CEFA 4 berths to have their main competition for followed by a playoff between 4 non-qualifiers from the GFA and 2 non-qualifiers from CEFA to fill the final numbers.

[Corindia]

So altogether, how many teams are in each conference, and how many berths does each one get? And are you proposing a losers bracket, essentially?

[Dormill and Stiura]

So altogether, how many teams are in each conference, and how many berths does each one get? And are you proposing a losers bracket, essentially?

After thinking it over, I have this.

MSFC - 8 Berths, 13 teams
GFA - 8 Berths, 15 teams
CEFA - 4 Berths, 6 teams

At this point, I'd say that a 14 team loser's bracket is for the best in this case. It's not a perfect solution by any measure but since this is TWI, it's better than nothing.

[Corindia]

So altogether, how many teams are in each conference, and how many berths does each one get? And are you proposing a losers bracket, essentially?

After thinking it over, I have this.

MSFC - 8 Berths, 13 teams
GFA - 8 Berths, 15 teams
CEFA - 4 Berths, 6 teams

At this point, I'd say that a 14 team loser's bracket is for the best in this case. It's not a perfect solution by any measure but since this is TWI, it's better than nothing.

14 teams competing for 12 spots is kind of weird, and probably incentivizes very conservative play to merely not be the worst. Is there any other way we could do it?

[Dormill and Stiura]

After thinking it over, I have this.

MSFC - 8 Berths, 13 teams
GFA - 8 Berths, 15 teams
CEFA - 4 Berths, 6 teams

At this point, I'd say that a 14 team loser's bracket is for the best in this case. It's not a perfect solution by any measure but since this is TWI, it's better than nothing.

14 teams competing for 12 spots is kind of weird and probably incentivizes very conservative play to merely not be the worst. Is there any other way we could do it?

Assuming that the number of teams in each confederation remains exactly the same, there's nothing I can perceive being done other than my proposal. I'll have to think about it over the next few hours. In the meantime, I'd hope to see a conversation on the matter.

[Corindia]

14 teams competing for 12 spots is kind of weird and probably incentivizes very conservative play to merely not be the worst. Is there any other way we could do it?

Assuming that the number of teams in each confederation remains exactly the same, there's nothing I can perceive being done other than my proposal. I'll have to think about it over the next few hours. In the meantime, I'd hope to see a conversation on the matter.

In two weeks after the CEFA qualifiers are done, we should see if two nations haven't left the region. But 33/34 is a very awkward number to deal with certainly.

Maybe we could have one or two wild card spots (depending on whether its 33 or 34 nations). I can't imagine anyone wanting to play for those though, unless they were really committed to an underdog narrative.

[Dormill and Stiura]

Assuming that the number of teams in each confederation remains exactly the same, there's nothing I can perceive being done other than my proposal. I'll have to think about it over the next few hours. In the meantime, I'd hope to see a conversation on the matter.

In two weeks after the CEFA qualifiers are done, we should see if two nations haven't left the region. But 33/34 is a very awkward number to deal with certainly.

Maybe we could have one or two wild card spots (depending on whether its 33 or 34 nations). I can't imagine anyone wanting to play for those though, unless they were really committed to an underdog narrative.

After discussing this with Weinam, Orsandia, and Norstham on the Discord, I've come up with a better solution.

The Qualifiers will proceed as normal with the same numbers. However, we will not have 32 teams competing at the TWI Cup, rather we'll have 24. As of now, we have 20 berths allocated to the confederations which means the last four will be left to the loser's bracket of 14 to compete for.

Since LeagueSim does not like doing Group-styled Cups that don't have 16 or 32 teams, I'll have to use xkornate to simulate the tournament.

[Verdon]

How do you plan on doing a 24 team tournament?

[Dormill and Stiura]

How do you plan on doing a 24 team tournament?

I'll be using xkornate to simulate the tournament, starting with the group stage where we'll have 5 groups of 4 teams. These teams will be ranked based on their performance in the qualifiers and then seeded into their respective groups After the group stage I'll simulate the knockout stage until we have a winner. I already calculated the skill and style of each team and I'll be applying xkornate's additive style modifier to the simulation.

Here's the table of all the teams that are currently applied, as for how I got these numbers

Xkornate has two places to put definitive numbers, skill and style. Skill is defined as the ability of the team to perform in general and can be scaled between any two numbers (for my purposes I've used the standard 1-10). The Style Point is defined as the team's orientation towards either attacking and defending on a scale from -5 (most defensive) to +5 (most offensive). What I propose is that the Skill point given is defined by the following equation: Skill Point = (Offensive Point + Defensive Point)/2. The Style Point will be determined by the much simpler equation: Style = Offensive Point - Defensive Point.

I'll use my National Team to give an example:

Offensive: 8
Defensive: 6

Skill = (8+6)/2 = 7
Style = 8-6 = 2

Therefore, on xkornate, when I add in the Dormill and Stiura National Team, I'll put skill at 7 and style at 2. Now I realize that due to the hard cap, this will produce teams with the same skill with only variations in style, but it will probably be for the better that xkornate is used as a supplement to LeagueSim if LeagueSim can't be used.

Team	Skill	Style
Agadar	7	-4
Ainslie	6	-2
Alteran Republics	7	0
Athara Magarat	7	-2
Auria	6.5	+1
Corindia	7	0
Cosie	7	+2
Covonant	7	+2
Domanania	5	0
Dormill and Stiura	6.5	+1
Fahraxi	5.5	+3
Haasar	7	-2
Iosnil	6.5	-1
Kalmarfrihet	7	-2
Kho Panha	7	+2
Mandeka	7	+2
Menna Shuli	5.5	+1
Michigonia	6.5	+1
Negarakita	5.5	+3
Noronica	7	0
Norstham	6.5	-1
Orsandia	7	+2
Ostehaar	7	+4
Polar Svalbard	7	+4
Roendavar	6	-2
Samudera	6	-2
San Jimenez	6.5	+1
Thromsa	5	0
Thuzbekistan	5.5	0
Torom	5.5	+3
Verdon	6	+2
Verona Beach	7	+2
Weinam	7	+2

[Verdon]

How do you plan on doing a 24 team tournament?

I'll be using xkornate to simulate the tournament, starting with the group stage where we'll have 5 groups of 4 teams. These teams will be ranked based on their performance in the qualifiers and then seeded into their respective groups After the group stage I'll simulate the knockout stage until we have a winner. I already calculated the skill and style of each team and I'll be applying xkornate's additive style modifier to the simulation.

5 groups of four is 20 teams, not 24? Did you mean 6 groups of four?

Also you need to get down to 16 teams after the group stage, otherwise the bracket is uneven. If you do 6 groups of four, the top three of each group should move through except for the two overall lowest performing 3rd place teams. Dunno if this was your plan, but this is similar to how UEFA world cup qualifiers work.