NSSCRA Discussion Thread

by **TJUN-ia** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:19 am

Congrats to Saint Kanye for the well-deserved victory!

This season was certainly a blast and I look forward to what might occur next season.

Our farewell post, celebrating our 2nd podium in history, will be up at some point.

by **Cassadaigua** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 9:25 am

Another fantastic season in the books! Thank you, Newmanistan, for all that you do in the running of this series.
Congratulations to Saint Kanye on the much deserved championship! Great final race with all four drivers getting a top five spot.

Recuecn: Would love to see you participate next season!

As for the schedule, it needs to be reduced, we all realize that. 36 races was a drag, but at least it was spread out over a longer period of time. I like what Vilita has suggested, we had discussed this on discord for a little while and it is good to see that we will be on the same page, for the most part. I think one of the biggest things to cut down on is puppets that have races unless it's a case of Tropicorp where that nation gets roleplayed every day. New Northwesteros, maybe sneaks in with being roleplayed enough too. Leaving wild card races open towards the end of the regular season for new nations is ideal. They can be earned with RP.

I do think the series would benefit from a feeder series. Just one scorination is a good compromise if you are willing.

by **The Sherpa Empire** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:02 am

I'm not really into the feeder series idea. I suppose I can just pay very little attention to it if it gets implemented, but I see it as clutter. I think domestic series already fill that niche as a place for people to introduce drivers and tracks beyond the ones in NSSCRA. Newmanistan already barely RPs because he's busy keeping up with our stuff, and I don't think a feeder series is a worthwhile reason for more hosting work, even if it's less labor intensive than the main series.

by **Strike** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:03 pm

The Sherpa Empire wrote:I'm not really into the feeder series idea. I suppose I can just pay very little attention to it if it gets implemented, but I see it as clutter. I think domestic series already fill that niche as a place for people to introduce drivers and tracks beyond the ones in NSSCRA. Newmanistan already barely RPs because he's busy keeping up with our stuff, and I don't think a feeder series is a worthwhile reason for more hosting work, even if it's less labor intensive than the main series.

The feeder series isn't as much for users like us as much as it is for the rest of NS. Reducing the schedule and with the signups the way they are with the active RPers getting 3 guaranteed slots with newcomers just 1 makes NSSCRA very entrenched for the users who already participate in it. Now, this isn't a bad thing, but as the NSSCRA grew over the past 2 seasons from a participation and number of users perspective, the schedule and burden for both hosts and participants grew greatly. Basically as more users signed up, and more RPs were posted (121 RPs in NSSCRA 6, 376 in NSSCRA 7, 616 in NSSCRA 8 and 820 in NSSCRA 9), the series and schedule had to baloon out horizontally in order to keep to a point where all the participants were involved and had a chance to contribute. Reducing that schedule down while keeping similar structure in place for the series squeezes out some of the opportunities that new participants had to get involved in the past. So shrinking horizontally necessities either accepting that either A) New Participants won't get the same inclusion into the series nor as many opportunity to be involved, B) Existing participants who have helped bring the series back from hiatus to one of the most successful RPs will no longer be rewarded oocly or ICly for their contributions or C) A change is needed in the vertical direction for things that were cut out horizontally. A feeder series would take care of that in a way that is both far more realistic ICly and minimally burdensome oocly. If we further reduce the number of events with separate qualifying days and stick to the no frills version of the Feeder series then it should still be a lesser burden then NSSCRA 9 was from a hosting perspective.

Introducing drivers in domestic series is great for those of us who have entrenched storylines and drivers competing for victories in the top level week in week out due to our ranking and RP bonus and whatever carryover there is from prior seasons contributions. For some of the new competitors though, having two of their three drivers fail to qualify for the first 3 events and the other finish 35th three times because the barrier to entry is high may not be the most welcoming environment. Having a feeder series race where things are more 'equal' that they always get their two drivers in and those drivers have a better chance of doing well because they are competing against less drivers from the top users is a way to be inclusive to more of the casual or less experienced Stock Car RPers

by **The Sherpa Empire** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 12:52 pm

I'd be open to having fewer guaranteed charters for established teams, which would free up room for either more new players with their one charter, or more open slots that drivers compete for each race (easier to qualify).

It wasn't a problem when Wang had to qualify in in season 8.

by **Saint Kanye** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:06 pm

Thanks to Fleft, Recuecn, TJUN-ia and Cass. And to Hap for the paintjob.

Moving on. I think all puppets (even those as successful as Tropicorp) should have only one chartered and one unchartered driver. Spots could still be gained through RP.

Here are my proposals to hopefully open up more spots for new teams. Let's start by separating the participant countries into groups.

Group A: The Championship Four (STK, VNT, CDG, SHW)
Group B: Other Chasers (VEZ, AFT, HAP)
Group C: Other active RPers + host (NEW, TJU, JEB, XAN, FID)
Group D: Puppets (TRP, NNW, NCR, WRE, APY)

System 1
Groups A and B will have 3 chartered drivers, Group C will have 2 and 1 unchartered, Group D will have 1 and 1.

Total spots accounted for: 36/46

System 2
Group A will have 3, Groups B and C will have 2 and 1, Group D will have 1 and 1.

Total spots accounted for: 33/46

System 3:

First three groups will have 2 and 1, Group D will have 1 and 1.

Total spots accounted for: 29/46

I'm still not clear on how many drivers newbies can get. Either 1 chartered and 2 unchartered, or 2 and 1. This, and the system we'll be using, could change depending on how many signups we get before the deadline.

by **Strike** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:39 pm

I'm not sure exactly what you are proposing there Kanye - is that not for all intents and purposes the system we already have in place that has worked well since it was discussed and implemented?

The Top contributors from the previous season earned 3 charters for the current season. The next tier earned 2+1, the tier after that earned 1+2 along with newcomers. The host decides during signups where the bar between each tier is and which nations get put into those tiers in order to achieve a balance with the total number of signups. Thats the system we already have

I think your intent was to propose (an existing) solution to the wrong problem. It wasn't really an issue of there not being enough spots available. The teams that RP'd got spots. The teams that didnt lost them exactly as designed. In fact, I think we skipped over a round of cuts that we could have had in the second half of the season because there was no one left to really give spots to if spots were cut from inactive nations. We had soon to be CTE'd Bolgano getting two qualified drivers late in the season because there were so many available spots and you can't really say by the end of the season that anyone was missing races that deserved to be making them. In fact you could say the opposite - you could say there were a number of drivers still making races despite being barely RP'd if at all so there was still room to make even more charter swaps if any deserving drivers remained who needed them.

You could make an argument perhaps for slot allocation at the start of the season and limiting puppets (which, I could be petty and say if I had the same allocation as APY I would just not even bother with it at all) - but for the most part we already solved that problem. We've had first time entrants go deep into the chase each of the last two seasons so even starting with only one guaranteed charter doesnt really seem to be hurting even the first time participants. They RP, they earn the win they need to get in the chase, they earn extra guaranteed slots throughout the season. The system really seemed to work exactly as it was intended to.

Shortening the season doesn't change the number of slots available per race so I don't know if we need to solve that problem again after we've already essentially implemented that system already. The biggest fundamental change that was discussed for the new season is the idea of not everyone getting at least one guaranteed race on the schedule as the field size grows and the number of races is reduced. I don't think there was any proposal to reduce the number of cars in each race along with that The problem we had this season was numerous races at tracks of inactive or CTE'd nations that extended the season or created gaps without adding much value either to the active competitors, or, with the exception of maybe Banija who did at least contribute background info for their race which was earlier in the season, failed to even spark contribution from the inactive nation themselves. Since that is where the change is I would think that is where the proposals would focus on how to address the change which we seem to be all in agreement should be made.

I think its also kind of a fools errand to try to set in stone at the end of this season how charter allocations would be at the start of a new season when we don't know how many unique signups it would get or even whether all the nations would be returning etc. Its just about having the structure that can be adapted which as proven by existing implementation and your own post, we have that system now with multiple tiers of charter allocation that get applied depending on how many nations need to get drivers squeezed into the lineup.

by **Saint Kanye** » Thu Jul 09, 2020 7:56 pm

I was not addressing the schedule issue. I was replying to this.

The Sherpa Empire wrote:I'd be open to having fewer guaranteed charters for established teams, which would free up room for either more new players with their one charter, or more open slots that drivers compete for each race (easier to qualify).

It wasn't a problem when Wang had to qualify in in season 8.

My figures could be seen as an approximation, depending on whether countries return or not. For example, if we used the first system, we could expect the number of spots accounted for before the newbies come to be at most 36.

by **The Sherpa Empire** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 12:49 am

This is why I was talking about charters, emphasis mine:

Strike wrote:Reducing the schedule and with the signups the way they are with the active RPers getting 3 guaranteed slots with newcomers just 1 makes NSSCRA very entrenched for the users who already participate in it.

If one of the things that favors established players is the charter rules, then it makes sense to consider changes that would make more room for new drivers.

Anyway, if we're talking scheduling, let's go back to that example schedule for a minute:

You've got 25 races with two unassigned slots. Let's say we get an unusually good crop of new players and there are three that are really RPing their hearts out. I mean really great RP, so it would just be WRONG not to let them all have a race in their nation. If we adjusted the schedule and plopped in an extra race, that would make 26 instead of 25 and we'd still have 10 less than the season we just finished. It could be a 2nd exhibition race if changing the points math feels wrong/weird/unrealistic.

To me this feels cleaner than a feeder series. It doesn't waste energy on dormant nations or half-ass puppets. But with an average crop of new players, you could just use the two slots and leave the schedule as is. If we had that system this season, the slots for new players would have gone to TJUN-ia and Fleft. Last season would have gone to Val and Hap.

The number of races doesn't need to be exactly 20 or 25. We just need to be conservative about what we put in so it's not getting bloated with junk. For example, we don't need a race in Vangaziland when he hasn't RPed for two seasons.

The arrangement for a feeder series that was proposed earlier in this thread does not include any mechanism to prevent it from being dominated by the same players that dominate the main series. If both series will be dominated by the same few players, it just seems redundant.

by **TJUN-ia** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:38 am

The Sherpa Empire wrote:The arrangement for a feeder series that was proposed earlier in this thread does not include any mechanism to prevent it from being dominated by the same players that dominate the main series. If both series will be dominated by the same few players, it just seems redundant.

Sorry for poking my nose in, but I have a question based on what I've seen.

During the season we had events that were scorinated that did not impact the main series: the Rumble in the Rice Fields, for example, or events like that.

There are two ways I could see a feeder series, like the Xfinity, could be applied: either we use a WGP-style RP bonus system or we just don't have one at all and let luck decide the results. If you want a series which is "NSSCRA-lite" then you could go WGP-style. WGP-style or none could be applicable if you want a spec-series of sorts (like the Red Bull Rookies Cup) or a series that is minimally impacted by the main NSSCRA series.

Is any of this possible? Or am I not making sense?

by **Strike** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:56 am

TJUN-ia wrote:if you want a spec-series of sorts

Is any of this possible? Or am I not making sense?

I mean that's effectively what it is. You're just adding an additional scorination that is effected only by RP. No bias from prior seasons no extra charters to returning nation's and no preference in charter assignment. In the end it would operate however the host chooses to implement it. In being proposed, it is intended to be an even playing ground introductory level not strictly dominated by the same nation's which adds minimal burden to the existing format. The whole point of the feeder series is that everyone is on equal footing. Everything that Sherpa is arguing against as being "wrong" with the main series is actually everything specifically that that the feeder series is designed to address. It very specifically is designed as a series-long mechanism to have a level playing field not specifically dominated by "the same users". That's exactly what it is so that comment really is quite confusing.

- All the drivers in a feeder series would be new, there would be no ranks or bonus from prior seasons
- Every participant gets a race on the schedule with preference to newcomers if more than 25 participants
- New nation's get the same amount of cars in each race than old nations

Without Stacie Houston in the field, if new nation X is the top RPer from day one of the season then new nation X is going to have a great campaign in the feeder series. But if saint kanye is also one of the top RPers then he will also have a good campaign. Everyone starts exactly equal. It isn't designed specifically to punish nation's who do well in the main series (is that what you prefer?) But to have a place where all entrants are considered equal from the start. Another option would be to just make it random with no RP bonus, sure. I'm not sure thats the both path personally but that would be another way to ensure 'equality'. If there are 23 or more nations who enter the NSSCRA next season, then you start removing races from the schedule and drivers from the roster to keep those numbers at 25/46. To help with the perceived inequality of the top RPers doing well, you could first remove races in the feeder series from nations who have 2 in the main series, and you could first remove drivers in the feeder series from nations based on their finishing order from the previous season with the champion nation losing a driver slot first and so on down the line (or just ask for volunteers who dont want to participate in the feeder series). These of course would be good problems to have, 25+ entries and if we get to the point that we need to be having those conversations then we absolutely needed the expansion to the second tier.

The feeder series offers a way to do all of the things from a fairness and attracting new users perspective without requiring a head to toe overhaul of the main series that could tear down the IC structure that the series has built up for no good reason - and do so in a way that is not adding a brand new parallel competition with a different season and host structure like WGP2 "Faux feeder series" but literally just taking the existing data from the existing RP bonus and pressing score one more time.

I feel however like maybe we aren't that far off being in agreement on things if Sherpas primary concerns with the main series are simply that two newcomer nation's instead of one should have gotten into the chase, and that there should be 3 TBA races instead of 2. Particularly as my hastily tossed together example schedule only had 24 races instead of 25 so the third TBA race would be 'free'. These are just examples, again, we can't *actually* decide the schedule or charter allocation for next season now, just discuss a framework for how those decisions might be made.

------

Finally, on a separate note; I am not sure where the feeling of malice against the current system is coming from. We have done this four times, had a different champion four times and the nation's who RPd the most were rewarded appropriately. There has been a champion from a different nation every season while nation's in their very first season of play have won races in their first season and made the chase every time. How many cycles/years does it often take for a first time world cup participant to advance to the semi-final round as Abanhfleft did this season, for example? I just am not on board with the idea that the main series is fundamentally flawed. Newmanistan has done a very good job tweaking it and using common sense to be flexible and allocate charters around both at the start of the season and throughout the season to reward those that contribute the most to the series. I would argue that new users do get rewarded faster in NSSCRA then in most other long-term rank/history based competition on NS. The only issue we started with was that everyone agreed the season was too long however and the reason it was too long was because it was growing (which is a good thing). A feeder series is just one way to allow it to continue growing ICly without forcing it to also grow OOCly. Making the top RP nations qualify instead of guarantee a charter doesn't change the fact that they are the top RP nations who would be likely to qualify in each week, taking away the same amount of slots each week from nations who RP less which a feeder series would not do.

by **Newmanistan** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:03 am

As I typically like to do, I've wanted some of this discussion to take place to get ideas without jumping into it.

Beginning with the race schedule, the primary idea that I had been thinking about is what is being discussed here with a bit of a variation on it, that I like. All nations would present a race in their signup, and returning master nations would present two under the guise that everything is not guaranteed to be selected. I would then select the races accordingly, giving precedence to prestigious races or, in general, to races offered by regular roleplayers. I would then add in races in first time nations based on RP potential, but that is hard to determine. In the case of NSSCRA 9, I probably would have given one to Banija over TJUN-ia at the start of that season, for example; and that would have been the wrong move in retrospect, obviously. Therefore, I like the variation that is proposed and to simply have 2 or 3 races be TBA. Right now, scheduling 22 races and leaving 3 as TBA which would be closer to the Chase cutoff that I can decide after 7 or 8 races. If 4 nations are very deserving, and only 3 TBA slots were available, I would add the 26th race. (Though would consider taking a race away in a scenario where a previous RPer just has not roleplayed). In the 22 races, master nations and Tropicorp would get preference over occasionally roleplayed puppets. Tropicorp is separated from the rest of the puppets because it has been RP'd on nearly every race day for multiple seasons.

On the idea of the feeder series, if people are okay with just the one scorination, then I do not really mind it. The bulk of the "grunt work" of this series is putting all of the segment times into my spreadsheet per driver, and averaging them. This is a tedious grind and why it takes 45-60 minutes or so to produce the data. Figuring out the points isn't too bad, unless I skip over a driver as I work my up (I start with the last place driver and work up to the winner), and then have to start it over. Usually though, figuring the points is fine, it is entering the segment times that is the tedious part. Reading the roleplays is enjoyable and very entertaining. There is some work associated with setting up the scorinator to account for who is racing and to add in RP bonuses, but that's not a big deal. I usually read RP's as I see them and score them so it's only the three RP's at 8:59 that are being read after cutoff.

Therefore, I don't mind the feeder series and am open to doing it. What I am thinking then, is that races that are not selected in the main series are the ones that run in the feeder series, so the two series would not be racing at the same track on many occasions.

As for it being discouraging for a first time nation to finish at the back of the pack early on, well isn't that NS Sports? I am not signing up for the World Cup for the first time and expecting to qualify, or for the World Baseball Classic and expecting to win it. I feel that the system in place works, but some will need to realize that there are growing pains in NSSCRA like there are in every other series. Abanhfleft is proof that a first timer can have success, and TJUN-ia did very well, too. Last year, Valentine Z and Hapilopper proved it, and this year Valentine Z ended up with all three of his driver in the chase and one that nearly got to the final four. Giving these nations a feeder series where everyone starts at zero, including the drivers that the regulars send to it is something that I can be on board on with as long as the one scorination is acceptable. Personally, as a participant and not a host, it would be acceptable to me.

As far as field size for next year, I am thinking I will do something as I did this year and take the top 25 in owner points to give the guaranteed spots too. Or top 20, or 30, or whatever makes sense. Owner points are not necessarily equal to driver points, and a potential example for next season would be the 81 car where Chris Holmes and Drake Stevenson's points would be added together.

by **Strike** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:35 am

Cool, Thanks for weighing in. Thumbs up from me. Looking forward to the break as I'm sure everyone is but will be excited whenever we do start things back up again as well

by **The Sherpa Empire** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:11 am

Casinos in Macau are taking bets whether the top team in the feeder series will be GFR, VTM, Tropicorp, UrGa, or Cassadaigua.

Please don't take that too snarky, though. I do like NSSCRA, and I do like RPing with you guys.

by **Saint Kanye** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:09 am

I am assuming you won't be fielding a team? Or maybe putting in Beiyang instead?

I don't mind moving the NNW race from NSSCRA to the feeder series, if it ever becomes a thing.

Regarding the schedules of the two series, will races be held on the same day ICly or not? Because I could totally see open charter spots in NSSCRA events being awarded to the top finisher/s of feeder races. And I can also see underperforming NSSCRA drivers being dropped by their teams onto the feeder series.

Also, whatever is done with the guaranteed charters, I still say all puppets, including new ones who may come in next season, must only have one chartered and one unchartered driver.

by **Strike** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:10 pm

The Sherpa Empire wrote:Casinos in Macau are taking bets whether the top team in the feeder series will be GFR, VTM, Tropicorp, UrGa, or Cassadaigua.

I would put my money on "the field" at this point

by **The Sherpa Empire** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:21 pm

Saint Kanye wrote:I am assuming you won't be fielding a team? Or maybe putting in Beiyang instead?

Of course I won't.

Also, whatever is done with the guaranteed charters, I still say all puppets, including new ones who may come in next season, must only have one chartered and one unchartered driver.

I don't see the point of that. The 2nd unchartered driver doesn't get in the way that much, and puppets do tend to get a little RP. It's the guaranteed charters that really take up space.

by **Saint Kanye** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 9:58 pm

Yeah, but it will still free up some space for new users. While puppets do make for extra RP opportunities and are scored separately from main countries, they shouldn't be treated equal to the mains. Hence fewer spots to be given to them. That means the most charters a user (not country) could have at the start of the season is four, or three if we do cut down charters for the main countries to two. That's less intimidating to newcomers methinks. Still, RP could be used to gain spots.

by **The Sherpa Empire** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:24 pm

Saint Kanye wrote:Yeah, but it will still free up some space for new users. While puppets do make for extra RP opportunities and are scored separately from main countries, they shouldn't be treated equal to the mains. Hence fewer spots to be given to them. That means the most charters a user (not country) could have at the start of the season is four, or three if we do cut down charters for the main countries to two. That's less intimidating to newcomers methinks. Still, RP could be used to gain spots.

I wasn't disagreeing about limiting puppets to one charter. I just don't see the reason to tighten the limits on unchartered drivers.

by **Saint Kanye** » Fri Jul 10, 2020 10:56 pm

Now that I think about it, yeah, we could give them two unchartered. Newbies get priority when granting new charters anyway, right?

by **Valentine Z** » Tue Jul 14, 2020 2:20 pm

Just want to let you all know that I am still going to do an epilogue post soon enough. I want to close this up with a rather nice RP for the Valentians. :3

Thank you to everyone, for everything, once again! You guys have been really fantastic, and I have a lot of fun with the RP. ♥

by **Saint Kanye** » Wed Jul 15, 2020 7:55 am

Alright, my own farewell post is up.

by **Valentine Z** » Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:47 am

I think I missed my chance to write mine, because at this point, it's soooooo long overdue. Ah well, I will leave it up for a tentative NSSCRA 10. Have been very, very busy lately. That, or I am not finding the motivation to write one. >.<

by **Hapilopper** » Fri Aug 14, 2020 10:48 am

So, I've had an idea in my head for a few weeks now, and I was wondering about y'all's thoughts about it.

I was wondering if there would be any objections to me running the HASCAR series (my domestic stock car series) alongside NSSCRA next season as a "super-domestic" league. My idea behind this is that I could use this series to complement NSSCRA. The field would primarily consist of Hapiloppian drivers, but could also include some of your drivers, if you want an opportunity to build them up ICly before an open charter appearance or before a rookie NSSCRA campaign.

Curious as to y'all's thoughts behind this, yea, nay or otherwise.

by **Strike** » Fri Aug 14, 2020 11:11 am

Its more work for you, doesn't take anything away from NSSCRA, doesn't make it harder for the NSSCRA host to do their job and affords more RP collaboration opportunities for some folks.

So, sure, there is no reason not to do it except for your own commitment and sanity.

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