IWPF // Water Polo Discussion Thread

[The International Water Polo Federation]

Are the rankings from each Water Polo Championship added together or is each season counted as a brand new ranking?

Ah, yes -
Both infact.
Essentially, they're added together, then every thee WPIC cycles, they're devalued by half in time for the BOW.

[Equestrian States]

WPIC 3 everything thread has been posted

[West Phoenicia]

Its kind of unfair to have teams who competed in the Bow also compete in the WPIC 3 during the same cycle.

They get points from both competitions. Whilst those in the WPIC 3 who did not participate in the BoW are only awarded points from WPIC. Thus a nation who won the BoW or came in the top 4 as a newbie could suddenly push someone out of the top 5 due to receiving 2 lots of points within the space of a short time.

[The International Water Polo Federation]

Its kind of unfair to have teams who competed in the Bow also compete in the WPIC 3 during the same cycle.

They get points from both competitions. Whilst those in the WPIC 3 who did not participate in the BoW are only awarded points from WPIC. Thus a nation who won the BoW or came in the top 4 as a newbie could suddenly push someone out of the top 5 due to receiving 2 lots of points within the space of a short time.

Ah, yes -
Make propose an amendment for the constitution to be put to vote then.
Secondly, voting is still ongoing for the IWPF presidential elections everyone, please submit your votes!

[West Phoenicia]

Proposed Amendment to the IWPF Constitution.

As it appears that a new unranked nation now has the opportunity to participate in the Baptism of Water (BoW) which allow them a ranking score before deciding if they want to participate in the Water Polo International Championships.

1. To ensure fairness for all participating nations. A newer nation who enters the BoW should refrain from entering the Water Polo International Championships (WPIC) in the same cycle to avoid receiving double points (Points from both the BoW and the WPIC) which places established ranked teams at a disadvantage that season due to only receiving points from the WPIC and allows newly entered teams the ability to unfairly gain double points that would have them jump ahead in world standings in a single cycle over nations who have participated in prior WPIC.

[Northwest Kalactin]

Proposed Amendment to the IWPF Constitution.

As it appears that a new unranked nation now has the opportunity to participate in the Baptism of Water (BoW) which allow them a ranking score before deciding if they want to participate in the Water Polo International Championships.

1. To ensure fairness for all participating nations. A newer nation who enters the BoW should refrain from entering the Water Polo International Championships (WPIC) in the same cycle to avoid receiving double points (Points from both the BoW and the WPIC) which places established ranked teams at a disadvantage that season due to only receiving points from the WPIC and allows newly entered teams the ability to unfairly gain double points that would have them jump ahead in world standings in a single cycle over nations who have participated in prior WPIC.

This doesn’t effect the nations that just competed in the BOW right

[Equestrian States]

1. To ensure fairness for all participating nations. A newer nation who enters the BoW should refrain from entering the Water Polo International Championships (WPIC) in the same cycle to avoid receiving double points (Points from both the BoW and the WPIC) which places established ranked teams at a disadvantage that season due to only receiving points from the WPIC and allows newly entered teams the ability to unfairly gain double points that would have them jump ahead in world standings in a single cycle over nations who have participated in prior WPIC.

Opposed.

The easier (and better) solution would be to simply change the weighting of the BoW in the current rankings formula. If you're going to say that a new nation can only participate in the BoW OR WPIC, nobody will choose to participate in the BoW. Speaking of the rankings, I'd like to see the actual table used to calculate the rankings in the future just so that we're operating with total transparency in that regard.

[West Phoenicia]

The issue is nations like your Equestrian States and Newmanistan are suddenly thrust up higher on the ranking teams than WPIC competing nations from the last two cycles all because you participated in the BoW that should not have carried such weighty ranking points.

The BoW proved to be a dud in the water. And quite frankly should be scraped if its only purpose is to allow newer teams the ability to earn double points in a cycle giving them a better edge on the world standings.

Baseball, Basketball and Football on here don't allow that unfair advantage. You build up rankings as you go.

[Filindostan]

The issue is nations like your Equestrian States and Newmanistan are suddenly thrust up higher on the ranking teams than WPIC competing nations from the last two cycles all because you participated in the BoW that should not have carried such weighty ranking points.

For all its worth, then the BoW shouldnt have been created. Why? Ranking points for the WPIC do not justify the need fot a boost to newer nations entering, unless we're talking KPB points type of a gap here.

I'd rather have the BoW scrapped rather than having it in the ranking points. I just don't feel the need for this, and I'm pretty sure that I'm not just one of the users who have the same sentiment as I do.

[Equestrian States]

The issue is nations like your Equestrian States and Newmanistan are suddenly thrust up higher on the ranking teams than WPIC competing nations from the last two cycles all because you participated in the BoW that should not have carried such weighty ranking points.

I have absolutely no problem with the rankings formula being changed so that the BoW is less significant, that's exactly the point I was trying to make. I'm just saying that your proposal doesn't do that. Your proposal would make it so that new nations are forced to choose between participating in the WPIC or the BoW.

To be completely honest, I'd prefer to see the BoW abolished. In my opinion, it's a completely unnecessary tournament, much like the Baptism of Iron was in the World Bowl before we abolished that tournament. It's not going to see much RPing, if any, and just pushes back the WPIC even further.

[Radanax]

1. To ensure fairness for all participating nations. A newer nation who enters the BoW should refrain from entering the Water Polo International Championships (WPIC) in the same cycle to avoid receiving double points (Points from both the BoW and the WPIC) which places established ranked teams at a disadvantage that season due to only receiving points from the WPIC and allows newly entered teams the ability to unfairly gain double points that would have them jump ahead in world standings in a single cycle over nations who have participated in prior WPIC.

Opposed.

The easier (and better) solution would be to simply change the weighting of the BoW in the current rankings formula. If you're going to say that a new nation can only participate in the BoW OR WPIC, nobody will choose to participate in the BoW. Speaking of the rankings, I'd like to see the actual table used to calculate the rankings in the future just so that we're operating with total transparency in that regard.

Herro ther EQS -
The rankings table currently only displays WPIC 1, but ranking system remains unchanged, I just do rankigns on here because my Google Docs constantly lags on my computer.

The issue is nations like your Equestrian States and Newmanistan are suddenly thrust up higher on the ranking teams than WPIC competing nations from the last two cycles all because you participated in the BoW that should not have carried such weighty ranking points.

I have absolutely no problem with the rankings formula being changed so that the BoW is less significant, that's exactly the point I was trying to make. I'm just saying that your proposal doesn't do that. Your proposal would make it so that new nations are forced to choose between participating in the WPIC or the BoW.

To be completely honest, I'd prefer to see the BoW abolished. In my opinion, it's a completely unnecessary tournament, much like the Baptism of Iron was in the World Bowl before we abolished that tournament. It's not going to see much RPing, if any, and just pushes back the WPIC even further.

This is a fair point, however, unfortunately, we'd need to amend the IWPF Constitution for this to take place.

The issue is nations like your Equestrian States and Newmanistan are suddenly thrust up higher on the ranking teams than WPIC competing nations from the last two cycles all because you participated in the BoW that should not have carried such weighty ranking points.

For all its worth, then the BoW shouldnt have been created. Why? Ranking points for the WPIC do not justify the need fot a boost to newer nations entering, unless we're talking KPB points type of a gap here.

I'd rather have the BoW scrapped rather than having it in the ranking points. I just don't feel the need for this, and I'm pretty sure that I'm not just one of the users who have the same sentiment as I do.

^ See above ^

[Todd McCloud]

Honestly, the BoW is kind of needless until this develops a following consistent with that which is football. Just divide the weightings by 2 for BoW and allow them to compete - honestly, much like how Vekaiyu ran the second tourney, RP >>> making a team and hoping for the best. We're not seeing a diatribe, but let's be honest, the reason why this competition exists is because 1. All interested nations like water polo 2. It's fun to read the RP's. Therefore, I believe going forward that Rp prowess should far and outweigh any roster, and indeed any rankings. You want the top spot? Continue to RP well, full stop.

[Newmanistan]

I was actually pretty surprised to see where we were ranked just off of the Baptism of Water title. Taking off my sky-blue colored glasses, that is too high, and we shouldn't be that far ahead of some established teams.

The Baptism of Water was a fun tournament for me, because it really fit an idea that just worked for me to a tee. I don't think it is a particularly necessary tournament, though.

[Radanax]

Damn -
EQSvRazenthuria gonna be litty.

Honestly, the BoW is kind of needless until this develops a following consistent with that which is football. Just divide the weightings by 2 for BoW and allow them to compete - honestly, much like how Vekaiyu ran the second tourney, RP >>> making a team and hoping for the best. We're not seeing a diatribe, but let's be honest, the reason why this competition exists is because 1. All interested nations like water polo 2. It's fun to read the RP's. Therefore, I believe going forward that Rp prowess should far and outweigh any roster, and indeed any rankings. You want the top spot? Continue to RP well, full stop.

If you see the rankings, currently, they are divided by two.
Perhaps though, removing the BOW would be the best thing to do at the moment.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

The issue is nations like your Equestrian States and Newmanistan are suddenly thrust up higher on the ranking teams than WPIC competing nations from the last two cycles all because you participated in the BoW that should not have carried such weighty ranking points.

For all its worth, then the BoW shouldnt have been created. Why? Ranking points for the WPIC do not justify the need fot a boost to newer nations entering, unless we're talking KPB points type of a gap here.

I'd rather have the BoW scrapped rather than having it in the ranking points. I just don't feel the need for this, and I'm pretty sure that I'm not just one of the users who have the same sentiment as I do.

It really isn't necisary at this point. If we get 200 nations, sure go for it; otherwise why bother?

[West Phoenicia]

I noticed that Northwest Kalactin put a name down for WPIC President. A Will Jackson.

Did Northwest Kalactin pull out of the nomination as he is not listed on the nominees.

[Razenthuria]

I noticed that Northwest Kalactin put a name down for WPIC President. A Will Jackson.

Did Northwest Kalactin pull out of the nomination as he is not listed on the nominees.

Erm -
I made ti quite clear non-IWPF members can't run for President. He wasn't in the IWPF until he participated in the BOW, thus, at the time of his post, he was ineligible.
Not to mention sign-ups had passed.
So, yes, I saw him.

For all its worth, then the BoW shouldnt have been created. Why? Ranking points for the WPIC do not justify the need fot a boost to newer nations entering, unless we're talking KPB points type of a gap here.

I'd rather have the BoW scrapped rather than having it in the ranking points. I just don't feel the need for this, and I'm pretty sure that I'm not just one of the users who have the same sentiment as I do.

It really isn't necisary at this point. If we get 200 nations, sure go for it; otherwise why bother?

Please see my post from yesterday

[West Phoenicia]

West Phoenicia sets an amendment in motion to dissolve the Baptism of Water. Under Section VI of the IWPF.

The Baptism of Water has shown;

1. That the way it is scored can cause a nation who participates in both the Bow and the WPIC as a first timer to have an unfair advantage that causes them to jump ahead of currently ranked teams of the WPIC I and II cycle. Which was shown when two teams leaped up to 6th and 7th place just on BoW alone and have the ability to jump into the top 4 after just completing WPIC III.

2. That while it was created to assist new people to join in the sport of Water Polo, actual Roster posting and roleplays was less than a normal cycle of Water Polo. Causing a waste of time for the host and pushing back a WPIC event.

3. That total members of Water Polo is still quite small, with only minimum participation from a majority of signed up nations. It does not have the numbers to support a secondary league.

4. The BoW is not needed. A new person can simply start playing. As there has only been two additions so far of the WPIC, it is not hard for a new person to get on the ranking ladder and start having an impact if they post a roster and roleplay.

( Example in World Baseball Classic by three cycles West Phoenicia was already in the top 8. Even know this event is on its 41 edition)

5. BoW teams who are signed up for WPIC III as not to pull the carpet from out of them to have their scores combined and recalcualted to balance them out for their final ranking at the end of the WPIC III to ensure fairness to established players of current participating nations.

Can we get this seconded by up to 3 people so we can take it to vote and scarp the BoW.



On a side note West Phoenicia has opted out of voting for a new president this cycles. A president of a sporting body's nation should really be leading by example to encourage others to roleplay which i have not seen from these nations who are nominated.

[Todd McCloud]

Damn -
EQSvRazenthuria gonna be litty.

Honestly, the BoW is kind of needless until this develops a following consistent with that which is football. Just divide the weightings by 2 for BoW and allow them to compete - honestly, much like how Vekaiyu ran the second tourney, RP >>> making a team and hoping for the best. We're not seeing a diatribe, but let's be honest, the reason why this competition exists is because 1. All interested nations like water polo 2. It's fun to read the RP's. Therefore, I believe going forward that Rp prowess should far and outweigh any roster, and indeed any rankings. You want the top spot? Continue to RP well, full stop.

If you see the rankings, currently, they are divided by two.
Perhaps though, removing the BOW would be the best thing to do at the moment.

I wouldn't be that hasty. The people who participated in BOW should have some credit for that. Perhaps divide by four instead of two.

[Todd McCloud]

West Phoenicia sets an amendment in motion to dissolve the Baptism of Water. Under Section VI of the IWPF.

The Baptism of Water has shown;

1. That the way it is scored can cause a nation who participates in both the Bow and the WPIC as a first timer to have an unfair advantage that causes them to jump ahead of currently ranked teams of the WPIC I and II cycle. Which was shown when two teams leaped up to 6th and 7th place just on BoW alone and have the ability to jump into the top 4 after just completing WPIC III.

2. That while it was created to assist new people to join in the sport of Water Polo, actual Roster posting and roleplays was less than a normal cycle of Water Polo. Causing a waste of time for the host and pushing back a WPIC event.

3. That total members of Water Polo is still quite small, with only minimum participation from a majority of signed up nations. It does not have the numbers to support a secondary league.

4. The BoW is not needed. A new person can simply start playing. As there has only been two additions so far of the WPIC, it is not hard for a new person to get on the ranking ladder and start having an impact if they post a roster and roleplay.

( Example in World Baseball Classic by three cycles West Phoenicia was already in the top 8. Even know this event is on its 41 edition)

5. BoW teams who are signed up for WPIC III as not to pull the carpet from out of them to have their scores combined and recalcualted to balance them out for their final ranking at the end of the WPIC III to ensure fairness to established players of current participating nations.

Can we get this seconded by up to 3 people so we can take it to vote and scarp the BoW.



On a side note West Phoenicia has opted out of voting for a new president this cycles. A president of a sporting body's nation should really be leading by example to encourage others to roleplay which i have not seen from these nations who are nominated.

On second thought, let's get rid of the BOW (I'll edit my above post). Just too complex and the scoring moving forward would either benefit newbie nations or fall to their detriment.

Should the president nominations be opened down in the future, Vekaiyu will throw a body to the wall and see if they stick. Though I personally believe in strong RP first, rankings second when it comes to bonuses and winning competitions. That way a new nation who RP's well can move up the rankings quickly and perhaps surpass a nation that just shows up and makes a roster each time.

[The International Water Polo Federation]

Damn -
EQSvRazenthuria gonna be litty.If you see the rankings, currently, they are divided by two.
Perhaps though, removing the BOW would be the best thing to do at the moment.

I wouldn't be that hasty. The people who participated in BOW should have some credit for that. Perhaps divide by four instead of two.

Look, man -
My rp is a bit limited right now, my Grandma apparently has Cancer and I'm going to shrinks for suice-prevention right now - you'll have to excuse me if rping isn't my greatest concern atm.

West Phoenicia sets an amendment in motion to dissolve the Baptism of Water. Under Section VI of the IWPF.

The Baptism of Water has shown;

1. That the way it is scored can cause a nation who participates in both the Bow and the WPIC as a first timer to have an unfair advantage that causes them to jump ahead of currently ranked teams of the WPIC I and II cycle. Which was shown when two teams leaped up to 6th and 7th place just on BoW alone and have the ability to jump into the top 4 after just completing WPIC III.

2. That while it was created to assist new people to join in the sport of Water Polo, actual Roster posting and roleplays was less than a normal cycle of Water Polo. Causing a waste of time for the host and pushing back a WPIC event.

3. That total members of Water Polo is still quite small, with only minimum participation from a majority of signed up nations. It does not have the numbers to support a secondary league.

4. The BoW is not needed. A new person can simply start playing. As there has only been two additions so far of the WPIC, it is not hard for a new person to get on the ranking ladder and start having an impact if they post a roster and roleplay.

( Example in World Baseball Classic by three cycles West Phoenicia was already in the top 8. Even know this event is on its 41 edition)

5. BoW teams who are signed up for WPIC III as not to pull the carpet from out of them to have their scores combined and recalcualted to balance them out for their final ranking at the end of the WPIC III to ensure fairness to established players of current participating nations.

Can we get this seconded by up to 3 people so we can take it to vote and scarp the BoW.



On a side note West Phoenicia has opted out of voting for a new president this cycles. A president of a sporting body's nation should really be leading by example to encourage others to roleplay which i have not seen from these nations who are nominated.

On second thought, let's get rid of the BOW (I'll edit my above post). Just too complex and the scoring moving forward would either benefit newbie nations or fall to their detriment.

Should the president nominations be opened down in the future, Vekaiyu will throw a body to the wall and see if they stick. Though I personally believe in strong RP first, rankings second when it comes to bonuses and winning competitions. That way a new nation who RP's well can move up the rankings quickly and perhaps surpass a nation that just shows up and makes a roster each time.

I officially third this -
As such, a vote for a constitutional amendment will thus be available in 24 hrs.

[Todd McCloud]

What's important in the scope of this competition only is to figure out the BOW scoring, make sure the Third Water Polo Championships work out well, and some kind of president is determined. Any significant real-life event shouldn't put this competition or any facet of NS on the radar in comparison. Suggesting a more RP-centered competition should only be considered in the scope of this competition, not as it interferes with real life.

[West Phoenicia]

Is anything going to happen with the constitutional amendment. I know people have real lives but its been well over 24hrs.

Also according to the WPIC Constitution under Rankings Cluase 1,

A national team shall be assigned a ranking upon the basis of their performance in the previous WPIC.

Seeing that the BoW was a water polo event but a seperate entity from the WPIC. Certain nations should have gone in unranked not ranked. Some especially as high as they were which have affected the results.

[Newmanistan]

Where in the Constitution does it say the Baptism of Water is a required tournament? I'm reading the Constitution that's in the IWPF Factbook. If it's not in there, we can't dissolve it with an amendment because it was not part of the constitution to begin with.

A better amendment would be saying something to the effect of, "There will be no preliminary tournaments for the IWPC for unranked nations that affect the rankings for the upcoming IWPC tournament [unless the Committee agrees with a 75% majority that such tournament should be held based on the nature of the signups. In such a case, the ranking points will be to simply rank the nations amongst themselves, and the maximum value attained for the tournament should not exceed the minimum ranking point value of an established team that had entered]."

The part in [] is optional.

And yes, despite my IC position and benefiting from it, I do believe the points earned from the BoW were excessive.

[New Lusitania and the Algarves]

1) To be honest, the Baptism of Water at this stage is still a pointless tournament as the number of IWPF members are still quite low.
2) As for rankings, it would make sense for it to be a "UEFA-style" rankings which phases out each year/round every said number of years. (currently it's 5 years and the ranking counts 2013-14 to the current 2017-18).

Anyway these are just my opinions, I support Newmanistan on the BoW subject anyhow.