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The World Cup Discussion Thread (OOC, Version IV)

A battle ground for the sportsmen and women of nations worldwide. [In character]

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Krytenia
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Founded: Apr 22, 2004
Capitalizt

Postby Krytenia » Mon Jul 12, 2021 3:32 pm

As the other co-host of AOCAF 60, I will say this; I'm extremely wary of public RP grading in WCC tournaments.

That's not to say I'm completely averse to it, mind. Regionals have a much different atmosphere to them, mainly because most users tend to interact with their regionmates than those elsewhere. That's not a criticism, or an accusation of there being regional "cliques"; it's just an observation that you're more likely to interact with your friends down the street than the ones two towns over. As such, there's a lot less scope for negativity in public grading for these tournaments. Expand that to the WCC stage, especially with new users not used to the quirks and foibles of our little corner of the forum, and as Squorn said, there's a lot more chance of these users being disheartened.

Burnout is a worry, true, but it's one with more than one root cause. My advice to people is to find a level you are comfortable with. Be happy in your own writing, and do it for the enjoyment of storylines, characters, and interplay with others. RP bonus is just that; a bonus. It isn't, and never has been, a guarantee of winning. If you're RPing to grind bonus, that's probably not healthy in the long term. Nobody will judge you if you miss an RP cutoff, or if you just decide to write something short. I'd say my RPs usually fall into the "medium" length category: they're rarely essays, but they are equally rarely less than 300-400 words (on that note, IIRC, Casari's 500 word threshold would have been with me in World Cup 29).

More transparency from the hosts in how they intend to grade would be useful, but there is also the caveat that grading RPs is a subjective thing. Certainly people should not be afraid of asking questions on this; we must be mindful, though, not to turn this into a mechanical "this is what we like" kind of thing.

1.5 KPB bonus for playoffs makes sense to me. I think this came up at some point in the recent past and I thought it was a good idea then, too. Similarly, weighting the CoH heavier would also make sense; IMO, there has long been a bit of a glass ceiling around the 16-20 KPB mark that can be quite hard to break out of. It also allows newer users in their first cycle (who I feel the CoH should by rights be a springboard for) the ability to get themselves a better boost, and maybe reduce the time taken to get to the top.

I will also, at this point, reiterate my idea from WC86 that the signup process itself should be shorter (around 21 days max). I feel it would lead to slightly smaller cups - and potentially fewer MDs in qualifying - and it's an area we can condense without either majorly increasing chance of burnout or impinging on other competitions.

The biggest thing though, is that we should at least listen to other ideas. A healthy debate will achieve much more than various sides choosing a hill do die on and digging in, even if we don't all agree on X or Y.
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Kandorith
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Postby Kandorith » Wed Jul 14, 2021 12:34 pm

I'll just pinch in here for a minute before I disappear again:

I do think the RP grading has caused my complete burnout on the tournaments. As of the past CoH and WC I felt no more enjoyment in writing and not just because of the, in my opinion stupid, results. I do think that an RP can be graded for effort however, but isn't good subjective? (correct me if I am wrong about this BTW)

I however noticed that I forced myself to try and write more bombasticly and more out of my comfort zone, which eventually led to not enjoying the tournaments any more, especially with consistent terrible results.

In the end it caused me to blame myself, thinking that whatever I wrote was just not good enough.

There's my two cents. No anger by the way, just an observation in my stance towards the recent events.
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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:08 pm

Chromatika wrote:
Strike wrote:Well, that will stop real fast if a list of who achieved max bonus was released every MD (for example). Because now, your comparison point isn't (Who else wrote the longest, bestest RP) but "Of all the RPs that scored Max bonus last MD, which one fits the length, quality and style of what I reasonably have time to contribute today".


Though I agree with this in principle, I am absolutely against listing names of nations that earned max RP. I am not calling out anyone in particular here - in fact I would hope nobody would be this way - but this can lead to "Why in the world was my RP not given max RP bonus when I think I wrote better than country xyz" leading to either conflict with the host or internal strife which can lead to the sentiment of "Why do I even bother".

Perhaps just state the lowest length of RP post for anybody who was given the maximum RP bonus?
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Sarzonia
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Postby Sarzonia » Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:25 pm

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Northwest Kalactin
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Postby Northwest Kalactin » Thu Jul 15, 2021 11:27 pm

I’m a bit late to this conversation, but I would be opposed to Public RP Bonus.

I used to be a proponent of the system, however, after using it in other tournaments, I no longer feel like it is effective.

One of the reasons why NSS is so different than other forum based RPs- and one of the reasons why I think people stick around here for so long, is the variety in RP Styles. In the end, NSS RP is about having fun writing, but you have a lot more fun when you are winning. If a user does not feel like their RP style rewards them within the scorinator enough due to poor grading by a host or just a RP style that does not bode well with the RP Grading Style of the host, they may think that they have to change their style if they want to do well and have fun in NS Sports, which in the end, could really turn off a user from future RP Participation if they do not like or enjoy their new RP Style.

That’s just my 2 cents on the issue, but I would take this opinion with a pinch of salt considering I’ve been retired for 3 months and I haven’t been paying too much attention to what goes on around here.
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Banija
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Postby Banija » Fri Jul 16, 2021 10:40 am

Just as an update. After further reflection on how long these things will take, I will make sure to put signups up for the World Cup at some point next week. At which point I am not sure yet- and will likely not reveal until they are actually open (because where's the fun without the surprise!)

Still, of course, will ensure that the timeline ensures that actual World Cup Qualifying does not interfere with the Summer Olympiad. And, of course, I will set a bid deadline date when I post the signups like I did last time(which is not a common occurrence for this competition).
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Valanora
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Postby Valanora » Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:29 am

DBC Announcement

There have been some discussions between Star and myself about the state of the DBC. We have agreed that there are some issues that could use some addressing, namely that of the sign-up process. There are editions where it has taken days to fill out the tournament and others where it is filled up in mere hours. As a result, the upcoming DBC, whose sign-ups will be posted next week, will be doing things a little differently. We will be removing the puppet ban, though you must declare the puppet upon entering as you do in most other tournaments with a limit of one. Additionally we are removing the 32 field cap, though I would not expect a cap to raise beyond 64, with 48 our currently projected preferred field. Lastly and perhaps most importantly, to sign up for the tournament, a roster will be used as the entry. This is to deter those who might decide to use filler entries or abuse the newly lifted puppet ban. These changes are for this edition only as it is a trial run to see how it plays out and if successful might become the norm moving forward. Additionally we have also decided to cohost the tournament as we try this new format.
Last edited by Valanora on Fri Jul 16, 2021 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Valanora
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Postby Valanora » Mon Jul 19, 2021 1:45 pm

The DBC is now open for signups.
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NSWC Signups
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Founded: Jul 04, 2005
Democratic Socialists

Postby NSWC Signups » Wed Jul 21, 2021 10:05 am

WCC Membership list has been updated.

EWCC Membership list has been updated.

I am not infallible and nor do I claim to be. If you should be on either of these lists (or if anyone should be on either of these lists) are not, please reach out to me and we can solve this issue.

Thank you so much!
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NSWC Signups
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Democratic Socialists

Postby NSWC Signups » Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:11 am

Cassadaigua wrote:

Host Announcement


Today, it came to our attention that the nations of Malandrin and Deniria are undeclared puppets. This was suspected earlier in the day, and a GHR did get send to the admin team, but then the linked post was a public admission by Malandrin that he and Deniria were puppets, so we did not need to wait for the GHR response. Each of these nations are first time nations, so the user in question was only allowed to have one nation. Even if they were a returning nation, they still would have been in the wrong as the puppet was not declared in the signup thread.

Addressing this in the middle of the World Cup qualifiers is unprecedented, and there has been a lot of discussion today on discord (the discussion was kept on discord due to the fact that the GHR was still active and we did not the speculation here) about what the punishment should be for this infraction. Several different theories, all very good suggestions, were made. Valid points and counterpoints were made on those suggestions.

In the end, it has been decided that the results that these teams have already gained up to the halfway point will stand, and their games for the second half of the stand. There will be no forfeits, which was discussed. These nations will receive 0 KPB for the duration of the duration, and will receive a score of 0 for their WC Qualifiers.

It is recognized that it stinks for anyone who dropped points to these nations, but do understand that these spots still would have been filled in the group by a pot 10 team that would have had either equal, if not more points, than Malandrin and Deniria had. We also needed to consider the fact that giving all teams forfeit wins in the affected groups could catapult the second place team in one of these groups into one of the six automatic qualifier spots for second place teams, and that was a pretty big deal. In the end, this should be about punishing Malandrin/Deniria and not rewarding the nations in their groups.

Thank you for your understanding. In the end, this was always going to be a decision that would not have 100% agreement, but in the end, we believe it was the best decision.


To build on this.

With this cycle functionally not counting for Malandrin/Deniria in terms of the World Cup, it follows that it should not count in terms of their WCC membership. So this is enforced as follows.

A. Obviously the user behind these nations is allowed (and encouraged!) to sign up for World Cup 89 (or their next World Cup) with one nation only. Since this WC cycle did not count for them, they still cannot sign up two users for the World Cup.

B. Since this did not count for WC purposes, it follows that it also does not count for WCC purposes. Therefore, Malandrin/Deniria will not get a WCC cycle credited to them (as otherwise they would since Malandrin posted a roster).

C. Malandrin maintains eligibility for the Baptism of Fire if he so wishes to participates, since the WC cycle did not count for him. Deniria, however, as they did participate in the BoF legally, have used up their BoF eligibility.

Concerns/questions/comments should be posted here or direct at my main nation of Banija.
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Otksarin
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Anarchy

Postby Otksarin » Tue Jul 27, 2021 8:12 am

Mini Clarification note:
It has came to our attention that a similar-looking nation signed up for the WC and the BoF. This is not us, btw. We are a member state of The Gothanita Isles, that isn't.
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Valanora
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Postby Valanora » Wed Aug 04, 2021 7:29 am

The DBC is currently sitting at 34 entrants, I would like to hit 40 before closing the signups. I was hopeful for 48 but it does not look likely at this point and I would like to be conducting the draw by monday in order to start the tournament at the end of next week.
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Northern Sunrise Islands
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Postby Northern Sunrise Islands » Wed Aug 04, 2021 4:44 pm

So, I saw the earlier stir right now, figured I'd say it even if I doubt you'll take it in any other way besides "it's a hobby *wave of hands*" or something.

I saw the whole argument of how you shouldn't take number of words under account and all but... that's actually how everywhere else in a competitive fashion sorta rolls, you're given some incentive for large texts with punishments for stolen or irrelevant text.

Although if you want to insist that this isn't a bunch of competitive stuff but rather an co-ordinated joint RP behemoth, then I guess you might want to make the grading public mostly so people can improve on their stuff?
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Bears Armed
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Postby Bears Armed » Thu Aug 05, 2021 7:37 am

Valanora wrote:The DBC is currently sitting at 34 entrants, I would like to hit 40 before closing the signups. I was hopeful for 48 but it does not look likely at this point and I would like to be conducting the draw by monday in order to start the tournament at the end of next week.

In that case, I'll try to put a team together: The main problem that I face here is deciding how much time passed for the Bears IC during their OOC absence from the international footballing scene. Going by the apparent age of Errisabearr Fane Urrsen during the recently-completed Quidditch World Cup, I think that only one World Cup cycle can have passed for them since their last COH games, meaning that they're going to be confused [again] when they see how many cycles later this contest actually is according to the teams that didn't miss any of those chances...
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(includes The Ursine NorthLands) Demonym = Bear[s]; adjective = ‘Urrsish’.
Population = just under 20 million. Economy = only Thriving. Average Life expectancy = c.60 years. If the nation is classified as 'Anarchy' there still is a [strictly limited] national government... and those aren't "biker gangs", they're traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies', generally respected rather than feared.
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Barunia
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Postby Barunia » Sat Aug 07, 2021 8:18 am

Otksarin wrote:Mini Clarification note:
It has came to our attention that a similar-looking nation signed up for the WC and the BoF. This is not us, btw. We are a member state of The Gothanita Isles, that isn't.


Not making any accusations here, and certainly not saying I don't believe you, but being in different regions is hardly sufficient evidence of independent ownership. You'll note neither this nation or our official puppet is in the same region.
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Banija
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Postby Banija » Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:00 am

You all have 13 hours to get your votes in for the World Cup and Baptism of Fire. Remember BoF votes go to Drawkland and World Cup votes go to the Busoga Islands
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Bears Armed
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Bears Armed » Sun Aug 08, 2021 2:13 pm

Bears Armed wrote:
Valanora wrote:The DBC is currently sitting at 34 entrants, I would like to hit 40 before closing the signups. I was hopeful for 48 but it does not look likely at this point and I would like to be conducting the draw by monday in order to start the tournament at the end of next week.

In that case, I'll try to put a team together: The main problem that I face here is deciding how much time passed for the Bears IC during their OOC absence from the international footballing scene. Going by the apparent age of Errisabearr Fane Urrsen during the recently-completed Quidditch World Cup, I think that only one World Cup cycle can have passed for them since their last COH games, meaning that they're going to be confused [again] when they see how many cycles later this contest actually is according to the teams that didn't miss any of those chances...

Sorry, other things got in the ay... but it looks as though you've picked up a few more entries since then anyhows.
The Confrederated Clans (and other Confrederated Bodys) of the Free Bears of Bears Armed
(includes The Ursine NorthLands) Demonym = Bear[s]; adjective = ‘Urrsish’.
Population = just under 20 million. Economy = only Thriving. Average Life expectancy = c.60 years. If the nation is classified as 'Anarchy' there still is a [strictly limited] national government... and those aren't "biker gangs", they're traditional cross-Clan 'Warrior Societies', generally respected rather than feared.
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Postby Commonwealth of Baker Park » Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:09 pm

no one has mentioned it, but congrats to the WC and BOF winning host bids. Thanks to those who supported Twicetagria and myself in our bid.
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PotatoFarmers
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Postby PotatoFarmers » Wed Aug 11, 2021 6:03 pm

It has been brought up that there were 7 RoNs votes for the WCQ. And even though I am not the host, as someone who voted RoN myself, I felt that it is only nice that I come out to explain the reasoning behind my vote, rather than giving the hosts a hard time trying to figure out whether 7 RoNs means there could be some improvements to be made. I chose to put this in the WCDT because of 2 reasons - 1) I simply don't believe many people will look at a bumped host bid thread after the host vote, and comment on that one; 2) I believe there are possible some reasons and explanation that could be better addressed as a community, if it is with regards to how the WC should function. And my main reasoning largely follows the line of the 2nd point.

There has been some conversation, in small pockets or openly on discord/WCDT, about the frequency of WCs. The issue of suffering from RP burnouts. The issue of alignment with the IFCF. And my consideration in mind was about the RP burnout issue. Which relates to the format of the WCQ and the way RP bonuses are being awarded throughout the bid. Anyone who read the bid thread would probably have seen me ask a variety of questions, asking for explanations about various parts of the bid, including the use of SQIS (I know some people sigh at the sight of SQIS being used) and the RP bonus carryover. The latter is what interested me the most. And the part which I thought about for a long time.

If many people's concern lies in having RP burnout from domestics, then shouldn't the WCQ have something to do with it? We made the change from 1 MD/24 hours to 2 MDs/48 hours a few cycles back to deal with the issue of having to RP too frequently. And if the issue is still raised, then perhaps something could and should have been done. And a host bid has the liberty to do that. The arguments for RP carryover bonus is there, but I believe few cycles back some bidders also point out that the carryover typically is done in terms of the improvements in ranks before and after the WCQ. Which is also a valid point too.

I was slightly on the greedy side of things. Though I liked the explanation as to why such a method of RP bonus carryover was done, it didn't really give me the "okay, this is something I can get behind" kind of feeling. Which is kind of weird especially since, well, I believe the hosts are competent. Even without any WC hosting experience. And the way they chose to do it - asking 2 senior advisors to help them in various matters, is something I like. The funny thing is that I don't dislike the way it is being done. 2 MDs of carryover bonus, taking into account quality (1x max) and rewarding those who RP every cutoff consistently (1x average) - that sounds good. However, I wanted to see if a second bid will show up. Something that wows me even further. Something that allows me to say, "Okay this is the bid I want". And so, with only 1 bid in the voting slip, I promptly voted for RoN. I wanted to see if someone can address the issue of RP burnout in their host bid in a different way, whether it is in terms of being more generous in giving RP bonuses, increasing carryover, or something like that.

I believe that the 6 other users who voted for RoN have their reasons. I know the WC voting system is done in a way in which everyone is entitled to remain anonymous in their votes. But it is only with constructive feedback can we improve as a whole. And I hope that if the concerns are things which can be addressed immediately, then people can follow me, and step up to explain why they voted this way. And it will help our new hosts a bit more. Most importantly, make you feel happier that your concerns are addressed.
Last edited by PotatoFarmers on Wed Aug 11, 2021 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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IC posts in WA, unless otherwise stated, are made by David Jossiah Beckingham, Chairman of Poafmersia's World Assembly Board.
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South Newlandia
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Postby South Newlandia » Thu Aug 12, 2021 3:05 pm

The World Cup 89 Rosters Thread is now open.

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Graintfjall
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Postby Graintfjall » Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:12 pm

Why is there such a long delay for MD1?

Edit: Also, I don't like the change to the (suggested) permissions box. Confusingly worded. If you want to ban people from saying "Choose my goalscorers: N", just say that.
Last edited by Graintfjall on Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Solo: IBC30, WCoH42, HWC25, U18WC16, CoH85, WJHC20
Co-host: CR36, BoF74, CoH80, BoF77, WC91
Champions: BoF73, CoH80, U18WC15, DBC52, WC91, CR41, VWE15, HWC27, EC15
Co-champions of the first and second Elephant Chess Cups with Bollonich
Runners-up: DBC49, EC10, HWC25, CR42
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Legalese
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Postby Legalese » Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:45 pm

Graintfjall wrote:Edit: Also, I don't like the change to the (suggested) permissions box. Confusingly worded. If you want to ban people from saying "Choose my goalscorers: N", just say that.


I'll field this as the person who suggested it.

First off, the RP permissions box is an optional-but-recommended guide. You're talking to someone who takes a mostly non-standard route to my own. So folks are free to put in what they want; based on what I've seen in the roster thread, they have. And nothing about this prevents you from simply saying "No, I don't want you to say anything about my goalscorers" with the box set up as it is in the roster thread.

As for the change, it was for a simple reason: of the things that are most-commonly included in the permissions, the goal-scoring permission is the only one that allows one to hamstring their opponent's RP options in a way that's not congenial, polite, or even amicable; the others at least are reasonable requests for storyline purposes. By suggesting offering preferred Goalscorers, you're effectively saying "Don't pick any random folk, pick these folks please." That allows you to set goalscorers in a way that allows you to do your thing (like if all goals must be scored by Val Kylx in the first five minutes), but in a way that provides your opponent with a reasonable degree of freedom, which is the communal thing to do.
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South Newlandia
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Postby South Newlandia » Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:50 pm

Graintfjall wrote:Why is there such a long delay for MD1?


There is not, at least not an unusually long one.
Image
We, as hosts, would like to have a weekend to set up things.

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Graintfjall
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Postby Graintfjall » Sat Aug 14, 2021 1:59 pm

Legalese wrote:And nothing about this prevents you from simply saying "No, I don't want you to say anything about my goalscorers" with the box set up as it is in the roster thread.

It doesn't prevent it but it also doesn't offer it as a possibility. To a new player, the OP offers no sense that such a permission would be allowed. But the bigger point is that "preferred" is a lot vaguer than "Y/N". If someone does not pick from my "preferred" goalscorers, have they violated my permissions?

Just change it back to the proper wording, thanks! :)
South Newlandia wrote:We, as hosts, would like to have a weekend to set up things.

A weekend is 2 days not 11 (according to my killjoy boss). Anyway, just because some older WCs did it wrong too doesn't mean this one has to.
Solo: IBC30, WCoH42, HWC25, U18WC16, CoH85, WJHC20
Co-host: CR36, BoF74, CoH80, BoF77, WC91
Champions: BoF73, CoH80, U18WC15, DBC52, WC91, CR41, VWE15, HWC27, EC15
Co-champions of the first and second Elephant Chess Cups with Bollonich
Runners-up: DBC49, EC10, HWC25, CR42
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The Sarian
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Postby The Sarian » Sat Aug 14, 2021 2:12 pm

I think two days between the BoF final and the World Cup starting would be excessively short. We don't want new users to be thrust from the BoF to the WCQs without a short break. And frankly, as hosts, Tikariot, South Newlandia et al are more than entitled to start the WC when it is most convenient for them.
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