The World Cup Discussion Thread (OOC, Version IV)

[Cassadaigua]

Yes, there is still a Final that I didn't RP. Yes I've been kicking around for a very long time exactly what to do with it and Yes I still intend to do it and hope I dont get a warning for Gravdigging or whatever when I do.

Now you mention it, WC47 never got a Final RP... that would be a gravedig of about as epic a proportion as is possible in this subforum.

And Margaret has cursed you with a long World Cup drought because of it!?

[Squornshelous]

Now you mention it, WC47 never got a Final RP... that would be a gravedig of about as epic a proportion as is possible in this subforum.

And Margaret has cursed you with a long World Cup drought because of it!?

That must be why I haven't won since 31.

[Krytenia]

And Margaret has cursed you with a long World Cup drought because of it!?

That must be why I haven't won since 31.

No idea what my excuse is.

[Kelssek]

I've had half a day to think about this. While I kind of shrugged when I learned about it at first, as I had the chance to look through the posts above I find the motives behind the breakaway region and, the manner in which the breakaway was conducted, less and less understandable or acceptable.

This is an error in judgment that I hope those involved will reflect and learn from. You've caused a lot of upset and anger unnecessarily. Did none of the 49 participants (I don't know how many real people, this is just the number of nations in the region) think to question whether secrecy was a good idea? How you could accomplish your goals in a better way? How your actions would be perceived, and how they might affect others?

Although I am not directly involved this affects me by extension of affecting many (if not most) of the people in the primary RP setting in which I interact. I'll leave it at that.

[Commonwealth of Baker Park]

I'm leaving any comment on the topic to my IC posts, but this has definitely generated a lot of peripheral RP from nations that probably never thought about regional issues before. And just like RL, outside nations taking sides, or not taking sides is also good for storylines.

[Mriin]

I've had half a day to think about this. While I kind of shrugged when I learned about it at first, as I had the chance to look through the posts above I find the motives behind the breakaway region and, the manner in which the breakaway was conducted, less and less understandable or acceptable.

This is an error in judgment that I hope those involved will reflect and learn from. You've caused a lot of upset and anger unnecessarily. Did none of the 49 participants (I don't know how many real people, this is just the number of nations in the region) think to question whether secrecy was a good idea? How you could accomplish your goals in a better way? How your actions would be perceived, and how they might affect others?

Although I am not directly involved this affects me by extension of affecting many (if not most) of the people in the primary RP setting in which I interact. I'll leave it at that.

I've been biting my tongue in public forums for a while, as in the grand scheme of things I'm a minor part of the move as someone who was already planning to tail off their activity for a while. And that part of it—this isn't my project, I'm not invested in it as much as everyone else, and stand to gain the least from it since I'm not even in the WC to RP about it in the moment—meant I didn't push on many points in the internal talks when the whole Anaia thing was being planned.

But since you asked, I do want to go on the record that my response to the plan being revealed to me was 1) making the blackjack & hookers meme, of course, and then 2) asking if this had already been discussed with Vilita. Even at that early stage the tentative plan was to tell him shortly before, and I tried to say that communicating earlier would be important so that the announcement wouldn't feel... well, like a mic drop moment (my words from back then). Like it was some big, bombastic denouncement of AO. Being on the inside, looking through the documents, talking with the other members, I knew that wasn't the case, but I also knew that we could very easily set ourselves up for it to be misconstrued badly. It's what ended up coming to pass, because again, I didn't feel like it was my place to push on the topic.

So that's where I have to put in the unpopular opinion as a denizen of Anaia: I think we should apologize. It is our fault that that misconstrual happened. It stings that people immediately went for bad-faith reads of potential motives for the move, but we held the door open for that to happen by not making any actual announcements or attempts to actually explain it until after people went "wait what the fuck?"

Kels is right—this was a fuckup. I still think the reaction on the other side went overboard, and that the AOers deciding to assume to worst of us lead to a spiral into a siege mentality for the Anaians that's just lead to bad blood and an inhospitable environment on the NSS discord for both sides. But that there was a negative reaction in the first place? Completely understandable. And it doesn't sit right to stand there and say it isn't, that there's no reason someone should be upset over these events.

Sure, NS might just be a game. The physical act of moving regions is small beans. You don't owe the code that represents a collection of nations anything. It's that there's members of the community—who sure, maybe you haven't collaborated with since before Vdara was born, but you still interact with on a regular basis be it in on discord or facing off in a tournament—and they deserve to not be blindsided by things that have a huge impact on how they interface with the site. The Anaia split, inarguably, will have a big effect on how AOers will interact with NSS and with their own region. Springing something like that on someone just isn't going to go well. The lack of coordination inevitably set this up for failure.

Would it have been annoying explaining to Vilita that no, there's no problems with AO that need to be "fixed," no, you can't convince us to stay, etc? Yeah, probably. Would that be infinitely better than having to have those same discussions in a frantic twelve hours before a drop-dead date and the ensuing clusterfuck afterwards? Absolutely.

The reason I'm making this post now is that there was discussion among the Anaians about the quoted Kelssek post being off-key in some manner, which just broke the camel's back for me. The post was reasonable, the conclusion very much worth considering, and that it was getting dismissed out of hand means the Us vs. Them mentality has gotten too ingrained. Now I feel like I have to speak up, just to try and clear the air in what little way I can and hope we can find some common ground to move forward with.

---

With that, I'm going to put something of an ultimatum of where I'd like to see this conversation go from here. If you think I'm full of shit, feel free to explain why—I'm no more infallible than anyone else here. This is just what I think will lead to the healthiest outcome for the community.

But before that, to Vil, ESF, EQS, and everyone else who felt wronged by this—you have my apologies for not doing more to help avoid this. It was handled poorly, and y'all got the short end of the stick. I can only ask that you believe that despite the messages being bungled, this was actually meant with the best of intentions, and that we can move forward under that pretense.

1. I'd very much like to see a similar apology from Audio. I didn't sign up to be his conscience, but at some point I was appointed to the role, and for all the reasons I listed above I think it's warranted. The plan went to pot and we can't move forward until that's admitted.
2. For the AOers who phrase the the Anaian ambitions as "we were bored" and say that's a bad reason, I have to ask for an agreement to disagree on that. Being bored, wanting to do something new, whatever. That's entirely a valid reason for hopping regions, else nobody would feel the impetus to move. A big part of being on NS is the ability to create and sometimes a new perspective is just necessary to get the creative process going.
3. Anaia needs to be its own thing. No sharing a map with AO. The entire point of doing something new is voided if we're locked into the same situation as before. If we're actually going to follow through on the mission statement, the entire reason for this move to happen, there needs to be a blank slate to be etched into that new vision. Anything less than a clean break isn't going to be sustainable into the future.
4. That doesn't need to mean connections need to be severed over this. As Osarius made a jab of, a Jamaican being born in England isn't nonsensical because they're in different regions. AO and Anaia nations can still interface and keep those close relations if they like. Or they can be severed for IC reasons, if you want to go that way. It's sports RP, the options are endless.
5. Except, I would say, for war RPs. Because war RPs absolutely require mutual consent to function in even the most basic form. And unless someone I haven't heard about is really rearing for some II action, none of the Anaians want to do that.

tl;dr I still think the idea and the heart behind the creation of Anaia is a good thing, but the execution was deeply flawed and the cleanup for the mess it made was even worse. I don't know if there's anything to do but apologize and try to move on.

[Nephara]

I'm excited for the new RP opportunities Anaia will bring - and already have brought - the forum. I hope it proves a refreshing change of pace and breath of life into Anaia's residents and, indeed, to AO's. I have full confidence the decision was made in good faith, and after careful thought.

[Krytenia]

It was never our intent to cause upset, and for those who are upset, I express my apologies for the pain this has caused.

That being said, AO nations are currently displaying more regional activity right now than I've seen in years. Outsiders will see this flurry of activity from the likes of Baker Park, Sarzonia, Valanora, Banija, S&T...hell, even Pacitalia has got involved. The IC fallout has spread to II, giving the region visibility in a new place. I'd be genuinely shocked if this doesn't convince fresh blood to come to AO to inject new life and replace us old duffers.

There are a few IC questions that remain and people on both sides of this divide looking to sort those out in a mutually beneficial way.

Let's not let a messy birth get in the way of what could be exciting times for all concerned. Look for the opportunity in crisis.

[Sarzonia]

I don't mind the idea of an RP angle or doing political ramifications for a move that -- regardless of IC reasons -- has the potential for great storylines and for doing something completely different from simply sport results.

That said, doing that simply because "we were bored" is not justification for foisting this angle upon those of us who aren't part of the Discord (or in my case, have no desire to be part of ANY Discord). The fact that this has engendered so many bad OOC feelings is what I find most upsetting about this.

This could provide good IC context for bad blood between Jhanna and Woodstock, so I welcome an RP angle that explores that tension. It could also present options to either strengthen IC ties between the countries involved or justify their unraveling.

My main issue with how this played out has more to do with the logistics. Pacitalia isn't playing in the World Cup, and in general, we haven't allowed people who don't compete in it to participate in the RP thread. That's part of why I did the thread in International Incidents. It allows people who are involved in the region, but aren't World Cup nations to have an avenue to get involved.

I don't care if Audio apologises or not. I don't care if anyone else apologises or not. Apologies are fucking worthless in my opinion. Frankly, I don't necessarily think anyone needs to apologise to those who aren't involved or are only tangentially so. I'm a big boy. I can move on with or without an apology.

Finally, if there are actual grievances, do the responsible thing and hash them out without blindsiding the rest of us. That's the secondary part that bothers me with all of this.

This had potential, even though it wasn't my preference to get involved. We all can be better. Let's start now.

[Audioslavia]

Aye, I'm not going to waste anyone's time by trying to offer excuses. I'm responsible for the decision to do it secretly, and I'm sorry. Doing this secretly wasn't a good idea from the start and became progressively less good of an idea with time. I can also confirm that Mriin's second comment was 'have you told Vil'.

[Sarzonia]

That must be why I haven't won since 31.

No idea what my excuse is.

Margaret just hates you.

[Valanora]

I won't speak for anyone else, but it will take a lot of effort and quite a bit of time for trust and good will to be earned again for those from AO that participated in this. The move itself is not the issue, it has been the execution of this maneuver as it comes across very cloak and dagger and less of a geographic split and instead an AO 2.0 with the friends of Audio and Star as those invited. Given that we were supposed to be friends and were not deemed worthy enough to be given a heads up despite some of us having RPed together for between five and fifteen years, it really is disappointing and upsetting.

This is compounded by the response to those of us left behind at being upset, with being told we have no right nor reason to be. There has been assertions that myself, Vil, and EQS are liars, as well as a lot of lies and misinformation being spread about those left in AO. The public discourse would have you believe it has been egregious on the AO side but the insults and lies have been equally if not more spread on the Anaia side of things.

I dont know how some of the things said and actions taken can be walked back. Maybe in time things heal, but for the time being no amount of words can erase the misery and sense of betrayal.

[Krytenia]

I won't speak for anyone else, but it will take a lot of effort and quite a bit of time for trust and good will to be earned again for those from AO that participated in this. The move itself is not the issue, it has been the execution of this maneuver as it comes across very cloak and dagger and less of a geographic split and instead an AO 2.0 with the friends of Audio and Star as those invited. Given that we were supposed to be friends and were not deemed worthy enough to be given a heads up despite some of us having RPed together for between five and fifteen years, it really is disappointing and upsetting.

This is compounded by the response to those of us left behind at being upset, with being told we have no right nor reason to be. There has been assertions that myself, Vil, and EQS are liars, as well as a lot of lies and misinformation being spread about those left in AO. The public discourse would have you believe it has been egregious on the AO side but the insults and lies have been equally if not more spread on the Anaia side of things.

I dont know how some of the things said and actions taken can be walked back. Maybe in time things heal, but for the time being no amount of words can erase the misery and sense of betrayal.

We can all be better.

Let's start now.

[Sarzonia]

I won't speak for anyone else, but it will take a lot of effort and quite a bit of time for trust and good will to be earned again for those from AO that participated in this. The move itself is not the issue, it has been the execution of this maneuver as it comes across very cloak and dagger and less of a geographic split and instead an AO 2.0 with the friends of Audio and Star as those invited. Given that we were supposed to be friends and were not deemed worthy enough to be given a heads up despite some of us having RPed together for between five and fifteen years, it really is disappointing and upsetting.

This is compounded by the response to those of us left behind at being upset, with being told we have no right nor reason to be. There has been assertions that myself, Vil, and EQS are liars, as well as a lot of lies and misinformation being spread about those left in AO. The public discourse would have you believe it has been egregious on the AO side but the insults and lies have been equally if not more spread on the Anaia side of things.

I dont know how some of the things said and actions taken can be walked back. Maybe in time things heal, but for the time being no amount of words can erase the misery and sense of betrayal.

We can all be better.

Let's start now.

Thanks for stealing my quote, Kry.

[Kelssek]

That being said, AO nations are currently displaying more regional activity right now than I've seen in years.

I would refrain from making a claim like this again because it implies one can only spur activity if you upset people. In the past I referred to it as akin to nuking Vanuatu to encourage small island nations to participate in diplomacy. More, and I doubt you meant it in this way, but that's the argument that region invaders use to justify what they do, and it's a particularly ill-chosen point to make in this context. I was on the receiving end of that many years ago with invaders who were maliciously destructive so that strikes a nerve a little.

That aside, I appreciate the efforts to reach out and clear the air and I think this has been productive at least.

[Farfadillis]

I initially found the idea intriguing and interesting; my first reaction upon being informed, and other people (for example, Mriin) can confirm, was "I'm gonna go ahead and say this sounds like it could be fun" and "I think it can shake things up and be interesting!" I'm quoting myself verbatim here. I still think this has the potential to turn out to be fun, but I have to admit you guys have been increasingly rubbing me the wrong way with how you've been handling the very, very understandable fall-out. I'd be lying if I said I'm sure none of you had slightly more duplicitous intentions here. There's just something about scheming behind everyone's back, not having the slightest regard for what those offended have to say, and then pretending you're the victim that really did not sit well with me.

I appreciate and accept the apology, and I think it'd be healthiest to just move on and keep being internet buddies (to whatever degree everyone's comfortable with that). I just wanted to share my thoughts regarding the whole debacle a little, and make it clear I was, well, kind of disappointed.

[St Trinians]

That being said, AO nations are currently displaying more regional activity right now than I've seen in years.

I would refrain from making a claim like this again because it implies one can only spur activity if you upset people. In the past I referred to it as akin to nuking Vanuatu to encourage small island nations to participate in diplomacy. More, and I doubt you meant it in this way, but that's the argument that region invaders use to justify what they do, and it's a particularly ill-chosen point to make in this context. I was on the receiving end of that many years ago with invaders who were maliciously destructive so that strikes a nerve a little.

That aside, I appreciate the efforts to reach out and clear the air and I think this has been productive at least.

Also, for me at least, I feel if I were to join in in an IC context, I would get dragged in to the OOC drama. I'm not involved, and I don't want to be, so I'm staying well out of it.

EDIT: Realised I posted this as St Trinians. Take this as a comment of Barunia (currently residing in AO for now at least)

[Sarzonia]

I initially found the idea intriguing and interesting; my first reaction upon being informed, and other people (for example, Mriin) can confirm, was "I'm gonna go ahead and say this sounds like it could be fun" and "I think it can shake things up and be interesting!" I'm quoting myself verbatim here. I still think this has the potential to turn out to be fun, but I have to admit you guys have been increasingly rubbing me the wrong way with how you've been handling the very, very understandable fall-out. I'd be lying if I said I'm sure none of you had slightly more duplicitous intentions here. There's just something about scheming behind everyone's back, not having the slightest regard for what those offended have to say, and then pretending you're the victim that really did not sit well with me.

I appreciate and accept the apology, and I think it'd be healthiest to just move on and keep being internet buddies (to whatever degree everyone's comfortable with that). I just wanted to share my thoughts regarding the whole debacle a little, and make it clear I was, well, kind of disappointed.

I agree with you on the first paragraph. Whether it was borne from a sense of "you can't sit with us" or something else, people felt excluded and broadsided. And people are justifiably upset about it.

I disagree with the second point that we should "just move on." It smacks of squelching people who may still have strong feelings about this.

[Alasdair I Frosticus]

I've switched nations just so there's no confusion over what capacity I'm typing this in, but...

Appreciating the depth of feeling, I'm not entirely sure that the WCDT is the best place to hash out issues relating to a dispute between two regions that - while acknowledging that the regions are very active in NS Sports and the older region has a storied NSWC history - isn't specific to the NSWC or WCC activities.

This is a conversation that some of you clearly need to have with each other - this isn't remotely an attempt to close down the discussion - but perhaps this is best discussed elsewhere?

[Eastfield Lodge]

So, for all those who ever feel they are being undone by Margaret Just remember this. She be fickle but if you stick around long enough, she can also be fair (and rewarding... takes rare opportunity to polish a world cup trophy)

(Image)

Really? This is news to me!

[Zwangzug]

Appreciating the depth of feeling, I'm not entirely sure that the WCDT is the best place to hash out issues relating to a dispute between two regions that - while acknowledging that the regions are very active in NS Sports and the older region has a storied NSWC history - isn't specific to the NSWC or WCC activities.

This is a conversation that some of you clearly need to have with each other - this isn't remotely an attempt to close down the discussion - but perhaps this is best discussed elsewhere?

Earnest question, not trying to troll or point-score, and with the knowledge that not everyone in Anaia or AO is a world cup team, where do you recommend this be discussed? RMBs are out for obvious reasons. Not everyone is on discord (and even if they were, it can sometimes be rather fast-paced and casual, which isn't optimal for more serious asynchronous discussion). Would an OOC thread in this forum be locked for being "not sports"? Could we do that in NS or II, with the understanding that not every affected user is currently in Anaia or AO?

[Sarzonia]

Earnest question, not trying to troll or point-score, and with the knowledge that not everyone in Anaia or AO is a world cup team, where do you recommend this be discussed? RMBs are out for obvious reasons. Not everyone is on discord (and even if they were, it can sometimes be rather fast-paced and casual, which isn't optimal for more serious asynchronous discussion). Would an OOC thread in this forum be locked for being "not sports"? Could we do that in NS or II, with the understanding that not every affected user is currently in Anaia or AO?

I could create an OOC thread for the RP thread I did in International Incidents if that would help the discussion along.

That said, an OOC thread for that would likely be more for coordinating the events of the IC thread.

I appreciate Arch's desire to reach an equilibrium, but I don't think confining this discussion off-site is the right approach.

[The Sherpa Empire]

Appreciating the depth of feeling, I'm not entirely sure that the WCDT is the best place to hash out issues relating to a dispute between two regions that - while acknowledging that the regions are very active in NS Sports and the older region has a storied NSWC history - isn't specific to the NSWC or WCC activities.

This is a conversation that some of you clearly need to have with each other - this isn't remotely an attempt to close down the discussion - but perhaps this is best discussed elsewhere?

Earnest question, not trying to troll or point-score, and with the knowledge that not everyone in Anaia or AO is a world cup team, where do you recommend this be discussed? RMBs are out for obvious reasons. Not everyone is on discord (and even if they were, it can sometimes be rather fast-paced and casual, which isn't optimal for more serious asynchronous discussion). Would an OOC thread in this forum be locked for being "not sports"? Could we do that in NS or II, with the understanding that not every affected user is currently in Anaia or AO?

I'd prefer not to have in the lounge on Discord because it's been setting a bad tone for everyone -- including Esportiva, Rushmore, and independent people -- and making it difficult to use that space for relaxation and friendly chatter that it is intended for.

[Alasdair I Frosticus]

Earnest question, not trying to troll or point-score, and with the knowledge that not everyone in Anaia or AO is a world cup team, where do you recommend this be discussed? RMBs are out for obvious reasons. Not everyone is on discord (and even if they were, it can sometimes be rather fast-paced and casual, which isn't optimal for more serious asynchronous discussion). Would an OOC thread in this forum be locked for being "not sports"? Could we do that in NS or II, with the understanding that not every affected user is currently in Anaia or AO?

I could create an OOC thread for the RP thread I did in International Incidents if that would help the discussion along.

That said, an OOC thread for that would likely be more for coordinating the events of the IC thread.

I appreciate Arch's desire to reach an equilibrium, but I don't think confining this discussion off-site is the right approach.

I'm not calling for an off-site discussion, only a better medium than the WCDT (and don't worry Zwangzug, I entirely appreciate your question was only a practical one).

I'm not currently wearing my mod hat, but I think you could likely have an OOC thread on this topic in NS Sports (given that the primary RP focus of both regions is sport) provided it was framed correctly. I think the OP would need to have language along the lines of 'this is a venue to discuss recent events in the NSSports-focused regions of Anaia and Atlantian Oceania, and the potential ramifications for both those regions and the broader NSSports community'; do that, and you're likely fine.

[Sarzonia]

OK, I've made a discussion thread for NS Sports.

There's also an OOC thread in I.I. for direct participants to discuss things like logistics or things related to the storylines.