The World Cup Discussion Thread (OOC, Version IV)

[Taeshan]

Back after 3 years, good to see this is still going strong, looks like we have BoF 72 just finished. Is it too late to sign up for the next NSWC?

Are some of the old legends still around? Arch (aka Alasdair, Star, Krytenia, Valanora, Audio, Bears Armed, Vilita?

What DBC are we up to now?

Mostly,

Also Krytenia in the same conversation as the rest seems a bit...Too much.

Also you can sign up whether or not there will be a spot...That said it would take the spot i'm trying to prevent my puppet from taking potentially with cte's and such.

Also come join us on discord.

https://discord.com/channels/2470250143 ... 6769283083

[Blouman Empire]

Back after 3 years, good to see this is still going strong, looks like we have BoF 72 just finished. Is it too late to sign up for the next NSWC?

Are some of the old legends still around? Arch (aka Alasdair, Star, Krytenia, Valanora, Audio, Bears Armed, Vilita?

What DBC are we up to now?

Mostly,

Also Krytenia in the same conversation as the rest seems a bit...Too much.

Also you can sign up whether or not there will be a spot...That said it would take the spot i'm trying to prevent my puppet from taking potentially with cte's and such.

Also come join us on discord.

https://discord.com/channels/2470250143 ... 6769283083

Thanks, I'll have to jump on the discord as well.

Just found WC 85 looks like it is pretty much about to start, I'll wait for WC86 since not likely to get into 85. Gives me a chance to find my old RP notes on Bloumany and the way football is organised in the Empire.

[Cassadaigua]

Congratulations to our Rushmori neighbor on the BoF win!

[Mavinet]

Thank you to everyone participated and the hosts for a very pleasant experience. It's been fun and I'm looking forward to the WC qualifiers.

[Valentine Z]

Thank you for having me as well. I err... I will hopefully write a follow-up RP to close the Valentian defeat and to go back home in stride.

Can't have your team (and your nation leaders) abandoned on a football field!

With that said, I might not be joining anything new for the time being. Don't get me wrong, it's not because of anything; I'm just going through the last term of my university and I just want to focus on NSSCRA 9.

Once again, a big thanks! ♥ I know things... didn't go according to plan at times, but I can say that it's pretty enjoyable, for what it's worth.

[Commonwealth of Baker Park]

Thank you to everyone participated and the hosts for a very pleasant experience. It's been fun and I'm looking forward to the WC qualifiers.

Congrats on the win. Your nation will live on in history now!

[Terre Septentrionale]

Congrats Mavinet for winning the BoF, and commiserations to Zeta Reka and Tequilo, you came really close.

[Twicetagram and JYPe]

Thank you to everyone participated and the hosts for a very pleasant experience. It's been fun and I'm looking forward to the WC qualifiers.

Nice achievement! I hope to battle you next time.
I would like to thank all of my group mates: Tequilo, Kohnhead, Baggieland, Havynwilde, South Newlandia, and Revatnagar for making this short-lived campaign go well.
I still shall avenge you, Havynwilde, for that H2H loss

[Delaclava]

Congrats to Mavinet for the win today - as well as Zeta Reka, Tequilo, and Riena who concluded great performances today, and thanks to all teams for participating. It was an honor to take on the responsibilities of the largest BoF we've seen, and a pleasure to review such a high level of RP, both in quantity and quality.

Big thanks also to my co-hosts, Ethane and Appalachia/Xanneria, for allowing me to be a part of such a dynamic hosting experience when I was only just returning to the game. No doubt the three-way bid was unconventional, but it was a privilege to work alongside one of the more frequent WCC hosts of the past few years in Ethane, and an enthusiastic and willing junior co-host in Xanneria. This comeback was somewhat on a trial basis - but following this tournament, my plan now is (perhaps after a bit of time to catch my breath) to stay for an extended period of time.

We now hand the keys over to the four-headed monster - if the RP quality and amount of Margaret-induced absurdity from the BoF is any indication, you're in for a wild ride!

Oh, and one last word to all the BoF participants - enjoy being ranked ahead of one of your own hosts for the time being. I'm coming for you.

[Blouman Empire]

That discord link given to me earlier seems to not be working. Has someone got an invite link?

[Electrum]

That discord link given to me earlier seems to not be working. Has someone got an invite link?

I've sent one to you on discord

[Blouman Empire]

Yes thanks

Also I just saw this U21WC55 (DBC34). DNF

Anyone know what happened there?

[The Jovannic]

could some one send me that world cup discord Link?

[Qusmo]

I was just thinking about loopholes, upstanding citizen that I am.

Specifically, I was thinking about how, technically, I was able to sign up two first-time nations for the World Cup because I was not a first-time user, & I chose not to re-enter my main. I was wondering: Has anyone ever entered two nations in the BoF? As far as I can see, if a returning user did basically the same thing that I did, but signed their two new nations up for both the WC & BoF (& also didn't ask for their nations to be placed at the bottom of the priority pool), they would be able to do that. Under certain, albeit uncommon, circumstances – perhaps something similar to the recent Squornshelous/Squornshelan Remnant States dispute, or perhaps something akin to the breakup of one country into multiple – it might even make some narrative sense to do something like this, instead of simply waiting another cycle (or longer), like the vast majority of cases when a single user enters the BoF several times. So, is this something that's happened before, or would such a dual appearance in BoF 73 be a first?

[Mriin]

I was just thinking about loopholes, upstanding citizen that I am.

Specifically, I was thinking about how, technically, I was able to sign up two first-time nations for the World Cup because I was not a first-time user, & I chose not to re-enter my main. I was wondering: Has anyone ever entered two nations in the BoF? As far as I can see, if a returning user did basically the same thing that I did, but signed their two new nations up for both the WC & BoF (& also didn't ask for their nations to be placed at the bottom of the priority pool), they would be able to do that. Under certain, albeit uncommon, circumstances – perhaps something similar to the recent Squornshelous/Squornshelan Remnant States dispute, or perhaps something akin to the breakup of one country into multiple – it might even make some narrative sense to do something like this, instead of simply waiting another cycle (or longer), like the vast majority of cases when a single user enters the BoF several times. So, is this something that's happened before, or would such a dual appearance in BoF 73 be a first?

There was a discussion about this very topic on discord a few days ago; the consensus seemed to be "entering two nations into the BoF simultaneously breaks the spirit of the constitution." And the constitution does have wording to give that sort of leeway. So no, a user having two nations entered into the same BoF would likely be rejected. Practically, the choice is between having one enter the WC while forgoing the BoF or delaying their entrance a cycle.

[Sarzonia]

I'm not sure of prior precedents, but my understanding is that any player seeking to enter a puppet nation is expected to declare the status of said puppet.

Perhaps we should clarify whether we want an established player to effectively sign up with two puppets if they aren't using their main. Personally, I prefer that we not maintain that as a precedent given that it could potentially keep a deserving true newbie out.

That said, I'm comfortable with the rules in place for someone who isn't quite so upstanding.

[Strike]

I was just thinking about loopholes, upstanding citizen that I am.

Specifically, I was thinking about how, technically, I was able to sign up two first-time nations for the World Cup because I was not a first-time user, & I chose not to re-enter my main. I was wondering: Has anyone ever entered two nations in the BoF?..... perhaps something similar to the recent Squornshelous/Squornshelan Remnant States dispute

These are two different situations.

In your situation, in the past, it would have been interpreted either through letter or spirit of the rule that you can't do that.

2.3.1 Entry
The conditions for entry into the World cup are:
i) A nation must have signed up for the World Cup in the appropriate Signup Thread
ii) A user may only sign up one nation in their first entry, but may from their second entry onwards sign up a second nation known as a puppet.

The spirit/intent of this forbids what you describe. You seem to have signed up two nations which are in their first entry to the World Cup, which you could interpret as violating the constitution. If you read it that way of course then they would never both be allowed to both be in the BoF. Squornshelous situation is the more obvious loophole as written, as regardless of the interpretation and despite the break in competition, Squorn were not in their first entry so you could interpret SRS entry in the same tournament to be valid and it would be possible to then interpret both nations as BoF eligible. This would certainly be a rare occurance.

Personally, regardless of interpretation, I've simply always followed the "You can only enter one unranked nation" interpretation of the rule - and in the rare occasion that both of my nations were unranked, I entered only one, then, the subsequent cup, entered the second.

[Cassadaigua]

2.3.1 Entry
The conditions for entry into the World cup are:
i) A nation must have signed up for the World Cup in the appropriate Signup Thread
ii) A user may only sign up one nation in their first entry, but may from their second entry onwards sign up a second nation known as a puppet.

The spirit/intent of this forbids what you describe. You seem to have signed up two nations which are in their first entry to the World Cup, which you could interpret as violating the constitution. If you read it that way of course then they would never both be allowed to both be in the BoF. Squornshelous situation is the more obvious loophole as written, as regardless of the interpretation and despite the break in competition, Squorn were not in their first entry so you could interpret SRS entry in the same tournament to be valid and it would be possible to then interpret both nations as BoF eligible. This would certainly be a rare occurance.

Personally, regardless of interpretation, I've simply always followed the "You can only enter one unranked nation" interpretation of the rule - and in the rare occasion that both of my nations were unranked, I entered only one, then, the subsequent cup, entered the second.

Technically, the constitution states "the user" and not "the nation". In the Qusmo example: Qusmo, as a user, has signed up previously. Therefore, as a user, he can sign up two other nations as long as he identifies himself as the user behind them.

[Strike]

The spirit/intent of this forbids what you describe. You seem to have signed up two nations which are in their first entry to the World Cup, which you could interpret as violating the constitution. If you read it that way of course then they would never both be allowed to both be in the BoF. Squornshelous situation is the more obvious loophole as written, as regardless of the interpretation and despite the break in competition, Squorn were not in their first entry so you could interpret SRS entry in the same tournament to be valid and it would be possible to then interpret both nations as BoF eligible. This would certainly be a rare occurrence.

Personally, regardless of interpretation, I've simply always followed the "You can only enter one unranked nation" interpretation of the rule - and in the rare occasion that both of my nations were unranked, I entered only one, then, the subsequent cup, entered the second.

Technically, the constitution states "the user" and not "the nation". In the Qusmo example: Qusmo, as a user, has signed up previously. Therefore, as a user, he can sign up two other nations as long as he identifies himself as the user behind them.

Qusmo has signed up before, but they are already entering "One nation in their first entry" - IE: They are already submitting one nation that has never been entered before, which means by rule they can't enter a second nation that hasn't been entered before. Thats why I said its a matter of interpreting the Legalese and whether you apply the "User statement" multiplicative or additive to the statement as a whole - but regardless the intent certainly seems to prohibit two first time nations being entered by the same user.

[Appalachian Nation]

I'd say we should make the wording tighter and more clear before the next cycle.

Also I'd argue that it should be by Nation and not user. I feel an "Older User" getting two nations in the BoF seems cheap and goes against what I think the main concepts the BoF represent. (Getting new nation acclimated for the concepts of Roleplay in NSSPort, or allowing a returning user to get "caught up" a bit with their new nation or puppet) I feel it would unfair especially to a new user to allow a old user to enter twice.

[Legalese]

Thats why I said its a matter of interpreting the Legalese

You rang?

Agreed that the wording isn't great here. I read it as you can't enter two nations the first time you (as a user) enter, but it's fine beyond that. I'm more mystified with the way Qusmo claims both nations as puppets for this situation -- though that seems only to affirm that both nations are from a user that's entered before, which by my reading, makes it okay. That said, I also don't think that was the intent -- that is, the assumption was that you'd be adding a puppet to a nation that already exists. I also tend to support the idea that someone shouldn't have two nations in the same BoF.

I feel like there's a couple of choices here:
a) re-write what's here to explicitly say that a user can enter two nations if they've participated in a World Cup before.
b) re-write it to say explicitly that "a user cannot enter two nations that have never participated in a World Cup before in the same cycle."
c) add to a) that a user can only enter one nation in the Baptism of Fire
d) do nothing, have this conversation again the next time someone tries an interpretation that seems off.

Personally, I'm inclined towards B or C -- both of which limit a user to one BoF participant at a time.

[Sarzonia]

It's plainly obvious that the wording needs to be tightened to prevent someone from possibly circumventing the rules.

Of the options Legalese suggested, I would be inclined to choose both B and C. If you return from a long absence, it's a completely different animal from starting as a brand new player. You walk in already having at least an idea of what to expect and you are more likely to realise what a fickle bitch Margaret is.

I wonder if we should also discuss whether or not someone who's been away from the game for such a long time should be encouraged to bid to host a major tournament in their return. I wouldn't say we shouldn't after Del's tenure as a host of the recent Baptism of Fire, but it wasn't something I would have considered even if I had Internet access beyond the limited data on my phone.

Just some food for thought.

[Legalese]

I wonder if we should also discuss whether or not someone who's been away from the game for such a long time should be encouraged to bid to host a major tournament in their return. I wouldn't say we shouldn't after Del's tenure as a host of the recent Baptism of Fire, but it wasn't something I would have considered even if I had Internet access beyond the limited data on my phone.

Just some food for thought.

Seems like it happens infrequently enough to leave that question to voters and a case-by-case basis (not that I'm suggesting you were proposing an explicit rule be put in place), IMO. That said, it really does depend. I've hosted a bit before, and if I stick around, will likely put my hat in the ring again sooner rather than later, so I feel comfortable in knowing if I'll be ready to take it on again. That said, at least getting a sense of it there's been any major sea changes (particularly with how RP bonus is treated relative to the current "in" formulae and scorinators) certainly doesn't hurt.

[Sarzonia]

Yeah I was definitely just interested in getting a conversation going. Your point about seeing if any sea changes happened during an absence is a valid point. I believe I had that in mind when I came back previously.

I saw enough changes in lacrosse hosting to make it unlikely that I would put in a host bid there, and I hosted, um, more than my fair share of WLCs back in the day.

[The Archregimancy]

I was just thinking about loopholes, upstanding citizen that I am.

Specifically, I was thinking about how, technically, I was able to sign up two first-time nations for the World Cup because I was not a first-time user, & I chose not to re-enter my main. I was wondering: Has anyone ever entered two nations in the BoF? As far as I can see, if a returning user did basically the same thing that I did, but signed their two new nations up for both the WC & BoF (& also didn't ask for their nations to be placed at the bottom of the priority pool), they would be able to do that. Under certain, albeit uncommon, circumstances – perhaps something similar to the recent Squornshelous/Squornshelan Remnant States dispute, or perhaps something akin to the breakup of one country into multiple – it might even make some narrative sense to do something like this, instead of simply waiting another cycle (or longer), like the vast majority of cases when a single user enters the BoF several times. So, is this something that's happened before, or would such a dual appearance in BoF 73 be a first?

There is a loophole on this that I'm likely one of the very few people capable of exploiting - and I assure everyone that I have absolutely no intent of ever exploiting it since it would also require me to go without entering the Holy Empire into the World Cup for several cycles.

Anyway, the loophole is as follows:

I think we still permit unranked nations who've previously entered the World Cup to enter the Baptism of Fire provided they've never previously entered the BoF (if we don't allow this anymore, then ignore this post).

The Holy Empire first competed in WC 1; the BoF obviously didn't exist then.

Though I no longer enter the Archregimancy into the WC, it first entered in WC 24 without first entering the BoF.

So if I withdrew the Holy Empire from the World Cup for long enough to lose all ranking points, I could then - hypothetically - enter both the Holy Empire and the Archregimancy simultaneously into the BoF as unranked nations with no previous BoF record.

I'd have to be absolutely insane to even think about it - so please don't go closing that loophole on my account - but hypothetically I think it's possible.


Elsewhere, apologies for the lack of a Holy Empire roster; I'm dealing with some difficult pandemic-related issues in RL, and just haven't had the time. But I hope to get the nation's WC campaign up and running tomorrow. I'll also get in touch with the nations who - at the end of the previous tournament - expressed an interest in joining the anti Cocoa-bo campaign, and have been patiently waiting ever since without a reply, around the same time.