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The World Cup Discussion Thread (OOC, Version IV)

A battle ground for the sportsmen and women of nations worldwide. [In character]

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Bolgano
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Postby Bolgano » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:46 am

Sarzonia wrote:Personally, I'm not a fan of a 48-team World Cup proper.

HOWEVER, I would prefer that we discuss the idea based on merits or provide specific reasons why we oppose expansion to 48 teams rather than simply say "I hate this idea" and shut off discussion.

The advantage of adding more teams to the proper is the possibility that it might reward players who RP actively. One disadvantage is that it might "reward" a player who posts a roster and a single RP (or doesn't RP at all) and by the grace of Margaret qualifies.


Although the format that FIFA will use if it is the real prolema, 16 groups of 3 teams where the 2 best qualify and in case of a tie there are penalty shots, I see that for the money FIFA is able to ruin a tournament with a lot of history like It is the World Cup, on the other hand, in case this idea is accepted (which I think is unlikely) we can think of a better format than FIFA wants to make.
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Recuecn
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Postby Recuecn » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:07 pm

Sarzonia wrote:
Recuecn wrote:I think we should have a WCC vote to see who is in favor of a change to the 48-team format. And then anyone who votes for it can have their membership stripped since they clearly shouldn't be making WCC decisions.


If this is a joke, it's the sort of "joking" that can drive people away from this game within a game.

If not, this is exactly the sort of thing we don't need around here.

Sorry I thought it was clear that it was just meant as banter. Definitely just a joke, and hopefully nobody takes it too seriously. I'm all for discussing new ideas, it can only make things better.
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Banija
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Postby Banija » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:25 pm

I would, personally, be in favor of maintaining the World Cup at 32. It's a good number and a good size for our community. Regardless of what FIFA does in the real world, since television deals and inventory aren't really a concern of ours in the wide world of NS Sport, we should do what's best for our community.

In regards to what is best for our community, of course, that's a community discussion. Personally, things I like are that we have pretty consistently competitive qualifying, and after a long qualifying campaign, a 32 team World Cup is always going to be a reasonable length as we recover from the Qualification marathon. I also think making a World Cup too large can dilute the excitement of qualifying, and increase the disappointment of not qualifying. Unlike IRL(your Tahitis of the world were never going to qualify under 32 team format) most nations will eventually have a chance at making the Finals, even if it takes a few cycles to do so.

Audio mentioned the Cup of Harmony- we'd have to have discussions around that, since obviously extra qualifiers means we'd dip from the CoH pool. Would we be cool with smaller Cups of Harmony? And by smaller, I mean, you'd probably have some cycles where you'd have about 16 teams in a CoH if you had 48 in the Finals- obviously a much different task.

There's no mandate that we have to follow RL formatting. NS Sport doesn't follow RL formatting in almost anything else it does, so we shouldn't feel pressure.

That said, I welcome the discussion. Things can grow stale when you just do the same thing repeatedly because "that's the way it's always been done", and if somebody has a rationale for why 48 teams would be stronger than 32, I'd love to here it.
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Sarzonia
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Postby Sarzonia » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:03 pm

I don't like the idea of diluting from the Cup of Harmony based on sheer numbers, but a smaller CoH could help bring it more toward the original idea of having a team have to earn its way there as opposed to automatically inviting anyone who posted a roster and at least one RP.

On a slightly different tangent, I was brainstorming an idea of having a tournament for unranked sides prior to a World Cup qualifying cycle similar to what the Baptism of Fire Cup is for new nations.

Clearly, it wouldn't assign KPB points for those teams unless it ever receives formal sanction from the WCC, but just an idea I had.
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Newmanistan
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Postby Newmanistan » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:05 pm

BOLGANO wrote:Question Rapid
Remembering that FIFA announced that as of the 2026 World Cup the numbers of teams will rise to 48, the NS World Cup should also have these same numbers of teams?


Sure! Starting with approximately World Cup 115 in 2026!
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Zwangzug
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Postby Zwangzug » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:03 pm

Sarzonia wrote:I don't like the idea of diluting from the Cup of Harmony based on sheer numbers, but a smaller CoH could help bring it more toward the original idea of having a team have to earn its way there as opposed to automatically inviting anyone who posted a roster and at least one RP.

On a slightly different tangent, I was brainstorming an idea of having a tournament for unranked sides prior to a World Cup qualifying cycle similar to what the Baptism of Fire Cup is for new nations.

Clearly, it wouldn't assign KPB points for those teams unless it ever receives formal sanction from the WCC, but just an idea I had.
do you envision this running at the same time as the bof? Like, for returning teams who have already played a bof and are restarting from zero? I'm not sure there would be enough critical mass but I could run some stats. (If it would be just a few teams, maybe icly bill it as a friendly series?)
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Havynwilde
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Postby Havynwilde » Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:41 pm

Newmanistan wrote:Sure! Starting with approximately World Cup 115 in 2026!


EDIT: My comment came across as snarky n it wasn’t intended to slide like dat took it down as to avoid conflict after discussion with Audio.
Sarzonia wrote:On a slightly different tangent, I was brainstorming an idea of having a tournament for unranked sides prior to a World Cup qualifying cycle similar to what the Baptism of Fire Cup is for new nations.

Clearly, it wouldn't assign KPB points for those teams unless it ever receives formal sanction from the WCC, but just an idea I had.

What’s the idea behind it? Seems like a tournament without purpose is it like a BOF for non-new nations? Not really sure the idea behind this although it’s interesting to consider it.
Last edited by Havynwilde on Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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The Sarian
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Postby The Sarian » Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:19 pm

Havynwilde wrote:
Newmanistan wrote:Sure! Starting with approximately World Cup 115 in 2026!

maybe build a constructive response as to why you support or are against this idea instead of being an ass

I don’t think he was being an ass - this conversation comes up with some frequency and is normally resolved with the understanding that it’s best saved until the RL World Cup changes format.
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Kita-Hinode
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Postby Kita-Hinode » Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:22 pm

I politely disagree with the notion that we need to expand the World Cup to match whatever FIFA goes along with. Especially on the miffed moral grounds that the tournament is even being expanded, to begin with. We're not FIFA and thank your deity of choice for that.
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Recuecn
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Postby Recuecn » Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:23 pm

Havynwilde wrote:
Newmanistan wrote:Sure! Starting with approximately World Cup 115 in 2026!

maybe build a constructive response as to why you support or are against this idea instead of being an ass

I for one thought it was pretty funny, but then, my attempt at humor bombed too
Edit: dialed down the unintended snark
Last edited by Recuecn on Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Audioslavia
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Postby Audioslavia » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:04 pm

There is a snippiness to the discussion here that we are all better than.

Is there anyone decidedly in favour of moving to a 48-team World Cup some time during the next decade?
Last edited by Audioslavia on Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Apox
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Postby Apox » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:06 pm

Audioslavia wrote:There is a snippiness to the discussion here that we are all better than.

Is there anyone decidedly in favour of moving to a 48-team World Cup some time during the next decade?


I'd argue that this is a valid discussion to be having in 2025 when the change to a 48 team RLWC is imminent.
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Postby Free Republics » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:48 pm

I'm a firm no on the 16 groups of 3 format because 2 match group stages are too short.

I'm open to allowing 48 teams with a different format. I expect expansion to get voted down in 2025 unless the WCC membership's median stance on the issue changes dramatically between now and then.

Expansion, unless there's also an increase in numbers back to early to mid 10s numbers, could mean really poor CoH fields, BoF and unranked teams routinely qualifying and top seeds never missing out. (How many 1 seeds finish 4th or lower in their WCQ groups?) Depending on your perspective, that might be bad or it might be good.
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Zwangzug
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Postby Zwangzug » Thu Jan 09, 2020 4:55 pm

Free Republics wrote:I'm a firm no on the 16 groups of 3 format because 2 match group stages are too short.

I'm open to allowing 48 teams with a different format.

Agreed with both of these.
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Sarzonia
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Postby Sarzonia » Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:26 pm

Audioslavia wrote:There is a snippiness to the discussion here that we are all better than.


That was precisely what I chimed in to say with my earlier post on this issue.

I would be 100 percent against groups of three for the reasons outlined here.

I would be open to two possibilities right off the bat: One, twelve groups of four teams each with the top two in each group advancing to the knockout rounds. The eight group winners with the best records earn a bye into the Round of 16 whilst the four remaining first place sides and the second place sides face off in a second round.

The second possibility would feature eight groups of SIX teams each, top two qualify for the knockout rounds, but you add two group stage matches.

My idea for the unranked teams would essentially be a substitute for the Baptism of Fire Cup for unranked sides that otherwise wouldn't qualify.
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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:39 am

BOLGANO wrote:Question Rapid
Remembering that FIFA announced that as of the 2026 World Cup the numbers of teams will rise to 48, the NS World Cup should also have these same numbers of teams?



There's realistically little need to discuss this now.

Clearly there are strong emotions on this topic, but it's a moot point at present. For one, it's more than likely that there will be a significant turnover of NSWC participants between now and 2026, and even if we did reach a conclusion now, that conclusion would likely then be revisited by the newer participants 6 years down the line, forcing us to have this same discussion all over again.

So I would gently suggest parking this topic until at least after the 2024 RL Olympics; as qualification for the 2026 RLWC ramps up in 2025, then we can perhaps revisit things.


For what it's worth, my own thinking is that while FIFA's proposed 48-team format is execrable, the NSWC and NS Olympics should always mirror the format of their RL counterparts as closely as is feasible. But I see no particular need to outline that point of view further until 2025; always assuming I'm still alive by that point.

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Flavovespia
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Postby Flavovespia » Fri Jan 10, 2020 10:53 am

I think the answer is obviously a 40 team format, with a Casaran group stage and a double elimination knockout system
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Sarzonia
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Postby Sarzonia » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:35 am

We've had playoffs in the past to decide which teams make it to the proper. We could incorporate that more fully if we're really committed to expansion.

Or we could simply emphasise the if feasible aspect of trying to mirror RL and decide it's just not feasible.

Either way, let's commit to having the discussion in a productive way without resorting to snark, whether intentional or otherwise.
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Postby Farfadillis » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:06 pm

I hate to be that guy, but how has a discussion that should be had in 2022 at the earliest, as others have pointed out repeatedly, taken up the last two pages?
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Postby Ko-oren » Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:09 pm

Farfadillis wrote:I hate to be that guy, but how has a discussion that should be had in 2022 at the earliest, as others have pointed out repeatedly, taken up the last two pages?


I'm not trying to rile anyone up or be intentionally snarky, but these kinds of posts are how the discussion has lasted for two pages.
And now this post could push it to three if it somehow gets a response.

I believe the consensus is to kick the can down the road until 2022, which I'm in favour of as well.
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Postby Free Republics » Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:02 pm

I believe something of more immediate importance got lost in the discussion about expanding the WC finals at some point in the distant future:

Cassadaigua wrote:

Congratulations to the 30 nations that have qualified to the World Cup to join Cassadaigua and Baker Park!

Please make note of the next couple dates:

Sunday, January 12th at 3pm Eastern Standard Time - Group Draw (will be done on discord again)
Saturday, January 18th- Matchday 1 (To coordinate with the timeframe of the Cup of Harmony!)


The draw for this World Cup is now about 45 hours away!
Last edited by Free Republics on Fri Jan 10, 2020 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Commonwealth of Baker Park » Sat Jan 11, 2020 6:47 am

Free Republics wrote:I believe something of more immediate importance got lost in the discussion about expanding the WC finals at some point in the distant future:

Cassadaigua wrote:

Congratulations to the 30 nations that have qualified to the World Cup to join Cassadaigua and Baker Park!

Please make note of the next couple dates:

Sunday, January 12th at 3pm Eastern Standard Time - Group Draw (will be done on discord again)
Saturday, January 18th- Matchday 1 (To coordinate with the timeframe of the Cup of Harmony!)


The draw for this World Cup is now about 45 hours away!


And it's gonna be Lit AF!!
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Cassadaigua
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Postby Cassadaigua » Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:29 pm

30 minutes until the group draw, live on discord
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Postby Cassadaigua » Sun Jan 12, 2020 1:47 pm

The group draw is complete.
Groups have been entered into the RP thread. We begin on the 18th!
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Banija
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Postby Banija » Sun Jan 12, 2020 10:12 pm

The deadline has passed to accept your Cup of Harmony invites! At 42 teams, we'll close invites.

The draw will be live on TikTokdiscord, Monday at 3 PM EST(or about 15 hours from the time of this post). Hosted by Xanneria.

I'll have the pots and schedule up tonight, and then once the groups are drawn, I'll make sure they are posted in the thread with linked rosters by the end of the night(or, if not, by Tuesday mid-afternoon). Best of luck to all participants!
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