The World Cup Discussion Thread (OOC, Version IV)

[Dreamplanet]

1) Your are talking about MNM as if they did not RP in the Cup of Harmony. They did. They posted a roster, and they posted an RP. They just didn't RP often.

2) The nation they played against in the Final had the exact same amount of RP contribution to the CoH thread, so I am not sure what the purpose of calling them out repeatedly is

3) MNM could have chosen to not participate in the CoH however judging by their activity level on NS the past 2 weeks which was actually rather high as they were RPing in other things beside the CoH, It is reasonable to assume they didn't anticipate only RPing once.

4) Nations will never be disqualified for not RPing. Remember the hierarchy here. The World Cup started out as a Random event. 100% of the result was 100% Random. Then we added other factors: Rankings. Roleplay. Roleplay bonus is only a small percentage of the scorination contribution. For a while, particularly in the early days, your Roleplay bonus actually didn't even take effect until the next tournament you played.

the scores and results are what RPs are based on, not the other way round.

This.

5) The requirement for entry into the Cup of Harmony is to post at least an RP in the World Cup RP thread prior to Cup of Harmony selection. Thats it. You are not required to be an "active" roleplayer, you are just required to have RP'd. You are also not required to RP in the Cup of Harmony and there are regularly nations who do not RP at all in the CoH.

- However, as already stated, MNM was not one of them as they did RP in the CoH, so stop saying they didn't. Perhaps going back and reading the thread again to see this would make you feel better about the situation.

Just once. Once? That’s ok with you lot? In a tournament that is meant to reward active role players? Absolute joke.

You can bring up results all you like but it’s a fact, this is meant for roleplayers to have a second chance and having someone that entered a roster and maybe did 3 words for RPing win the entire competition is an absolute farce, are standards so low that just posting once is enough to win you a cup? Well fuck me i should’ve just not roleplayed in the CE and i would have a star by now, seriously why is this ok?

Of course real life comes first but you just don’t throw yourself in these kinds of competitions if you know you can’t get shit done, Brusseldorf had it right when he said these type of nations should be disqualified to prevent this. So what if RP bonus is small, it might not need to exist if this happens, again this is a tournament that promotes roleplaying, hell of an event this where the winner can do the bare minimum and win.

Your post is an embarrassment, you’re justifying a lack of engagement and that’s unforgivable.

[The Sherpa Empire]

I think you're overreacting, Dreamplanet.

Sometimes people sign up for something and they are planning to RP, but it just doesn't happen for whatever reason. Sometimes people get busy, sometimes people get writer's block, or whatever.

[Vilitan Origins]

Just once. Once? That’s ok with you lot? In a tournament that is meant to reward active role players? Absolute joke.

Your initial complaints were all based on the repeated inaccurate statement that MNM had not contributed anything to the CoH. I was simply advising you and the others that this was not true, they did contribute the same amount if not more than other participants, including the nation they defeated in the Final.

The Cup of Harmony rewards those that Roleplayed in the World Cup by giving them a second chance. You see how it is dependent on something that happened in the past, not something that could happen in the future. MNM RP'd in the World Cup RP thread but did not advance. Hence, as a reward, got invited to the CoH. End of dependency.

someone that entered a roster and maybe did 3 words for RPing

It's evident you still haven't gone back and read the thread to see what they actually contributed because the one RP they did post was quite longer than 3 words.

just posting once is enough to win you a cup?

Actually, there is no requirement to post at all. It is possible (though highly unlikely) to win a cup without posting at all.

these type of nations should be disqualified to prevent this

Nations who post a roster and roleplay in the RP thread for a tournament will never be disqualified.



Yes, it would have been great if MNM had posted more. It sounds like they are still planning to post more in the future in the CoH thread because, once again, Roleplay is something that comes *AFTER* the results, not before. If Roleplay was what determined the results, we would have no need for scorinators whatsoever.

[Nephara]

MNM had a roster. Since they had a roster, you could RP about them fine. You were not in any way held back by them.

Put your head down, keep producing the words, and the results will come for you. Venting off a little steam at your own misfortune is understandable, in moderation. I would be a hypocrite to suggest otherwise. Whining about the success of others is incredibly unseemly, and makes you come across as a child with a grudge. MNM deserved to be in the CoH, fulfilled the obligation of a roster despite what sounds like a punishing schedule, still managed an RP on top of that... why begrudge them? Why publically attack them?

RL comes first, and there's no obligation to hamstring oneself by pulling out of the CoH if they can't guarantee daily RP. That's an insane expectation. Shit happens.

[Eastfield Lodge]

Dreamplanet, you do realise rank is still an important part of the equation, right? It's not like MNM had a low rank - they were in Pot 1 for the group stages, and had the third highest rank on their side of the knockouts. They walked a group that had relatively little RP from the higher seeds, so got an easier draw in the knockouts as well. Beyond that, the only upset they themselves had was the semi-final against Omerica - everything else went to form.

If you want an RL example, it's like England reaching the semi-final of the WC last year. No right to be there based on the squad, but managed it because all the big boys messed up and either ended up in the other half of the draw or lost to other weak opponents.

[Brusseldorf]

You lot are the best community I've come across so far on NS, so it tears me apart to see us like this.

How about we discuss the best moments of the World Cup instead! Were their any standout contenders to you? Any hilarious RP's you want to remind us of? What has happened in this cycle that made you smile?
For me it was watching the young guns like Flavovespia and Timuria! They did incredibly well this cycle and stood out to me with their well-executed and engaging RPs right through the qualifiers and into the Cup of Harmony!

[Dreamplanet]

I think you're overreacting, Dreamplanet.

Sometimes people sign up for something and they are planning to RP, but it just doesn't happen for whatever reason. Sometimes people get busy, sometimes people get writer's block, or whatever.

Well yes, but I think it should be pretty obvious that you're not gonna win if you don't try.

Your initial complaints were all based on the repeated inaccurate statement that MNM had not contributed anything to the CoH. I was simply advising you and the others that this was not true, they did contribute the same amount if not more than other participants, including the nation they defeated in the Final.

The Cup of Harmony rewards those that Roleplayed in the World Cup by giving them a second chance. You see how it is dependent on something that happened in the past, not something that could happen in the future. MNM RP'd in the World Cup RP thread but did not advance. Hence, as a reward, got invited to the CoH. End of dependency.

Actually, there is no requirement to post at all. It is possible (though highly unlikely) to win a cup without posting at all.

Nations who post a roster and roleplay in the RP thread for a tournament will never be disqualified.

Yes, it would have been great if MNM had posted more. It sounds like they are still planning to post more in the future in the CoH thread because, once again, Roleplay is something that comes *AFTER* the results, not before. If Roleplay was what determined the results, we would have no need for scorinators whatsoever.

Dreamplanet, you do realise rank is still an important part of the equation, right? It's not like MNM had a low rank - they were in Pot 1 for the group stages, and had the third highest rank on their side of the knockouts. They walked a group that had relatively little RP from the higher seeds, so got an easier draw in the knockouts as well. Beyond that, the only upset they themselves had was the semi-final against Omerica - everything else went to form.

What disgusts me is that you guys are willing to turn a blind eye to the fact that he did basically nothing because he's a higher pot, you're all too willing to say "muh rank" and "muh scorinator" but you're failing to address engagement, player engagement is what makes the World Cup as great as it is, by the way you guys are talking maybe we should do away with it altogether, why have roleplaying at all if it does basically nothing? You'll have results, you'll have a winner but you won't have anyone who cares. The so-called "winner" shouldn't be given a pass just because "oh they RP a lot in the past oh they're good trust me", it should be about the performance in the Cup of Harmony that determines the CoH, then what's the point of anyone trying at all, yes I understands the WC carries into this but you should be able to be the master of your own destiny, it's meant to be a second chance after all.

And what I find funny is that it's all the pot 1 and 2 teams coming out in defence of not having to care, I get it, you want to stay at the top but then you're just gonna have a system that sucks ass and prevents upwards mobility, why even have roleplaying if it does nothing and the bigwigs are all too willing to just say "try again next time har har" other than actually giving a solution to a clearly broken system.

It's evident you still haven't gone back and read the thread to see what they actually contributed because the one RP they did post was quite longer than 3 words.

I'll be quite honest with you, I genuinely didn't even notice him posting at all because his post was just flooded out by people posting about him, i.e. people that actually tried to do something, personally I dislike weebs and anime and the only thing that sticks out from his posts to me is whenever he slaps on a shitty anime girl and calls it a day, I don't like it but i know it's a choice and i'll recognise it as such, but yet for a post so minimal it's easy to be flooded out by the people that got shafted by something so unfair, yes go on and say life isn't unfair and muh scorinator, but you guys are the ones in control, effort needs to be rewarded rather than discouraged by people barely doing anything and winning.

Sometimes people sign up for something and they are planning to RP, but it just doesn't happen for whatever reason. Sometimes people get busy, sometimes people get writer's block, or whatever.

RL comes first, and there's no obligation to hamstring oneself by pulling out of the CoH if they can't guarantee daily RP. That's an insane expectation. Shit happens.

I was busy this whole month due to college and assignments

I was ok with this until i found this thing called post history. The Cup of Harmony ran from the 6th to 15th of September, during this time you wrote quite a lot of posts, yes they weren't much but they were something, during the CoH, that one guy wrote a grand total of 31 posts in IC threads, guess how many of those were in the CoH? You guessed it, just one, one golden post of 1912 characters enough to win an entire competition with 34 other nations, and yet people think this is ok just because he posted once and because he's a pot 1 team it's excusable, no it's fucking not. You gotta maintain pot 1, not just let the scorinator suck you off with barely any effort.

Busy this whole month or just not giving a shit?

[Cassadaigua]

Dreamplanet, it can be frustrating when we don't like the results of a tournament, but remember this is just a game within a game and like has been said, there is a lot of randomness associated with it.

Also consider that RP bonus is quality and not quantity. I looked at a couple of your CoH RP's and then looked at MNM's one RP. I think MNM wrote about as much in that RP then you did, combined. I can't speak for how the the CoH hosts applied RP bonus, bu you do a lot with your RP's to make them appear bigger then they really are. The header can be copy and pasted from RP to RP, as can the schedule you create, and the group table that is copied. If I were hosting, you're not getting a RP bonus consideration for that beyond your first RP. Otherwise, pictures can be taken from the internet, and scorelines can be put in a smaller font. Looking at the substance, it's not bad RP but it's not like what MNM put out in his one RP, a well thought out story that likely took him quite some time to write.

I wish you the best, but again, quality > quantity, and from what I see, you two would not be too far apart in the RP bonus you accumulated if it were me.

[Dreamplanet]

Dreamplanet, it can be frustrating when we don't like the results of a tournament, but remember this is just a game within a game and like has been said, there is a lot of randomness associated with it.

Also consider that RP bonus is quality and not quantity. I looked at a couple of your CoH RP's and then looked at MNM's one RP. I think MNM wrote about as much in that RP then you did, combined. I can't speak for how the the CoH hosts applied RP bonus, bu you do a lot with your RP's to make them appear bigger then they really are. The header can be copy and pasted from RP to RP, as can the schedule you create, and the group table that is copied. If I were hosting, you're not getting a RP bonus consideration for that beyond your first RP. Otherwise, pictures can be taken from the internet, and scorelines can be put in a smaller font. Looking at the substance, it's not bad RP but it's not like what MNM put out in his one RP, a well thought out story that likely took him quite some time to write.

I wish you the best, but again, quality > quantity, and from what I see, you two would not be too far apart in the RP bonus you accumulated if it were me.

A game is fun when it's just balanced enough to be challenging, when it becomes unfair and predictable it doesn't become fun, it's funny that you say that there's alot of randomness to go with it, but by the likes of what Vilita and Eastfield Lodge are saying, I should've seen it coming because he was in Pot 1, not so random now is it?

Thing is, I'm not the most creative person on the planet but I'm not saying either that I deserved to win, yes I'd like to go further and this was just a slap in the face and makes me question why I even try but I could give you a list of people that aren't me that could've won but didn't because of this system. If him and I are on par as you say we are, where's his Group Stage exit? Or even better yet where's his Round of 16 or Quarter-Final exit if rankings basically determine the whole thing?

[Timuria]

You lot are the best community I've come across so far on NS, so it tears me apart to see us like this.

How about we discuss the best moments of the World Cup instead! Were their any standout contenders to you? Any hilarious RP's you want to remind us of? What has happened in this cycle that made you smile?
For me it was watching the young guns like Flavovespia and Timuria! They did incredibly well this cycle and stood out to me with their well-executed and engaging RPs right through the qualifiers and into the Cup of Harmony!

That's incredibly kind, but I hardly count as a 'young gun' more a returning 'veteran' of sorts. Flavovespia and Recuecn did incredibly well and deserve all those props. Also a quick thanks from me to all the hosts for this cycle for running it all so smoothly.

[Flavovespia]

You lot are the best community I've come across so far on NS, so it tears me apart to see us like this.

How about we discuss the best moments of the World Cup instead! Were their any standout contenders to you? Any hilarious RP's you want to remind us of? What has happened in this cycle that made you smile?
For me it was watching the young guns like Flavovespia and Timuria! They did incredibly well this cycle and stood out to me with their well-executed and engaging RPs right through the qualifiers and into the Cup of Harmony!

Thanks for the recognition. Disappointing to end up the only 'pointless' team in the Cup of Harmony, but it was good to even make it there. I just need my team to turn those losses into draws and draws into wins.

Also thanks to Timuria as well for the recognition

[Indusse]

I congratulate MNM for his COH win!!!!
if he had RPed just once or had posted just a roster, and won a lot of matches and even the cup. In a way it is a bit dissapointing to someone who tried his best with big and better RPs.. I understand that dreamplanet got frustrated after MNM won the cup with just an RP, anyone who did his best will feel like that,even i felt that when i lost to eshan in the free republic-banija hosted worldcup qualifiers... Eshan also just posted a roster and nothing else came by.....NS Sports is a game of luck and ofcourse Roleplays... I understood that after many weeks after that incident....Anyway it was MNM's luck to win the cup.... WE shouldnot discourage someone as i was discouraged by some nations, many may feel bad too.... I even lost a helpful nation's friendship after my plagarizing incident.So i request dreamplanet not to take up this issue up again..

[Dreamplanet]

I congratulate MNM for his COH win!!!!
if he had RPed just once or had posted just a roster, and won a lot of matches and even the cup. In a way it is a bit dissapointing to someone who tried his best with big and better RPs.. I understand that dreamplanet got frustrated after MNM won the cup with just an RP, anyone who did his best will feel like that,even i felt that when i lost to eshan in the free republic-banija hosted worldcup qualifiers... Eshan also just posted a roster and nothing else came by.....NS Sports is a game of luck and ofcourse Roleplays... I understood that after many weeks after that incident....Anyway it was MNM's luck to win the cup.... WE shouldnot discourage someone as i was discouraged by some nations, many may feel bad too.... I even lost a helpful nation's friendship after my plagarizing incident.So i request dreamplanet not to take up this issue up again..

It is a bit of a frustration because it makes me and people like me wonder why we even try, I'm not saying that I deserve an award for newspaper clippings, those are genuinely the best I can do, but other nations like Timuria, Flavovespia and Brusseldorf deserve more. And again I'm not trying to discourage the "winner" of the tournament, I just dislike his style of RPing and the fact that he won this with minimal effort (Kita-Hinode also bested me with little effort but again he was gone from NS as a whole during the time and not just picking to RP elsewhere like the 1-hit-wonder that was apparently too busy) and I believe that things have to change for the better.

As a matter of fact I believe that this win is actually discouraging roleplayers because if this can happen, why bother wasting time writing roleplays if the higher pot teams will always steamroll you without any effort, for example I couldn't get past Eura in the World Cup qualifiers despite me trying my best (and even trying to write a story but I think people can tell that I should just stick to newspaper clippings) but I still accepted it because the World Cup has never been kind to me, but when this happens in a tournament that you have to be a roleplayer to get in the competition in the first place it's just insulting.

Here's a solution for you guys, you need a balance of quality and quantity, of course you can't just have someone write once and have them win but you need someone that is consistently good winning. All champions are consistently good throughout their respective tournaments, it's not like they have 1 good match and it's their memory of that match that made them win it.

[Farfadillis]

As Vilita pointed out: RPing is what you have to do to get into the CoH. Once you're in, you're not obliged to RP. Yes, it's much better if the invited nation RPs, in much the same way it's better when any nation RPs in any competition.

Besides that, I have to say I can empathize Dreamplanet's frustration. I've been on both sides. When you care too much about results, there will come a time when rand does some bullshit that you have to put up with. I cannot empathize with the outburst and the attempted public shaming of MNM, though, specially since he has ostensibly done nothing wrong beyond committing the crime of being busy.

[Vilitan Origins]

What disgusts me is that you guys are willing to turn a blind eye

No one is turning a blind eye. No one has said "Everyone is happy they won, the system is working great and every cup should turn out just like this". All we've said is that you are on the wrong end of extreme because while results like this may not happen often, they are designed to be allowed to happen as the balance between RP/Rank/RANDOM exists. The results are the results. AFTER they are posted, we write about them. It happens that two nations who posted one larger RP instead of a number of smaller ones got into the Final, and one of them had to win at that point. It was MNM. Congratulate them and move on.

I'll be quite honest with you, I genuinely didn't even notice him posting at all

And I think this is the root of the issue here. They weren't engaged in the thread in the way YOU wanted them to be, and you apparently weren't even engaged enough to notice they were there. Instead of seeking this information out, you jumped into the WCDT to chastise another user and the system in general which, honestly, is coming out as a huge loss for you which could have been avoided with a few deep breaths and maybe taking a few minutes to make sure your claims were valid before posting them

but by the likes of what Vilita and Eastfield Lodge are saying, I should've seen it coming because he was in Pot 1, not so random now is it?

For clarities sake, I never once mentioned Rank or Pot 1 in any of my posts here and the fact that MNM was in Pot 1, which I was not aware of, had absolutely no bearing on my responses nor does it change their validity.

why bother wasting time writing roleplays

Thats a question you have to ask yourself. Many of us write Roleplays because we are building character arcs, stories, companies, nation building. Good results are just a bonus and they will come in time. If you are writing solely for the purpose of increasing your chance to win you will be upset for a very, very long time because even the best nations don't win every time. If you expected to be gifted a free tournament victory simply by posting more quantity then you were mistaken in how the scorination formulas work.

[Kelssek]

I think the key point I wanted to reiterate is that NS Sports is not a roleplaying competition, it is roleplaying about imaginary competitions.

It is entirely reasonable to be upset that the one thing that you can control, which is your own posting of RPs, does not translate into an expected outcome. I get what you're saying that the CoH seems like it should be a roleplaying competition. But it isn't, either. As others have said, it's a way to give people who RP more opportunity to RP. More imaginary competitions to write about. There is no obligation to do so, other than the social expectations you have very clearly expressed.

But it's also not true to say that RPing is not rewarded. I'm not being flippant in saying "try again next edition". You're going to move up the rankings and you'll have a better chance next time, because you have consistently RPed not just this cycle but the previous ones you've taken part in, and that also translates into rank. You can see rank as a form of solidified past-RP bonus. That said, just my own WC history as someone who was top 20 for a significant time might put things into perspective.

Dreamplanet, you seem like you are otherwise a very fine person, but I think you are angry right now and need to step away for 48 hours to clear your head, at least to the point you stop lashing out at people. I know I definitely say stuff I later regret when I'm upset, especially when I feel like I've been taken advantage of or victim of an injustice. It seems to me that's what you're doing here. This is a mistake.

If you want something with no ranks, the Winter Olympics are coming up soon. If you don't know anything about those sports, it can be a chance to learn. It can be a writing challenge. Come up with a bunch of names and you'll more than likely have a medal or a few to write about.

[Free Republics]

What disgusts me is that you guys are willing to turn a blind eye

No one is turning a blind eye. No one has said "Everyone is happy they won, the system is working great and every cup should turn out just like this". All we've said is that you are on the wrong end of extreme because while results like this may not happen often, they are designed to be allowed to happen as the balance between RP/Rank/RANDOM exists. The results are the results. AFTER they are posted, we write about them. It happens that two nations who posted one larger RP instead of a number of smaller ones got into the Final, and one of them had to win at that point. It was MNM. Congratulate them and move on.

This isn't even remotely close to the most unlikely result I've seen because of rand(). During my last season as NSCF commish, there was an unranked nation that won the entire tournament outright despite having a 0 in the scorinator (because NSCF bonuses, at that time, were reset completely after conference play). I don't remember their RPs being particularly good during conference play but they still managed to win their conference and thus earn a spot in the playoffs and then fluked their way to several upsets back to back to win the NSCF championship.

I was the one scorinating this and it wasn't something that I wanted to see but that's the result the scorinator produced and there was no issue with the way the scorinator was set up so the black swan result had to stand. Assuming that each upset had a 1% chance of happening (which is roughly accurate for the gridiron scorinator iirc) and that there were 3 playoff matches against opponents that had some RP bonus (I don't remember if they faced another no rank, no RP team in the quarterfinals), that was literally a 1 in a million event.

[Audioslavia]

Hello everyone. I'm wearing my mod hat.

Also that "next time" comment is in pretty poor taste, now I've heard the "there's always next time" or in my club's version "there's always next year" line so many times...

Before I start, 'next time' is a completely innocuous comment for most people. I understand that if you're a fan of, say, Spurs, Sporting, Liverpool or Feyenoord it might be annoying as hell, but it clearly wasn't meant to be a dig.

Dreamplanet, Most of us have gone through situations like this on one side or the other. It's frustrating to lose out to someone who didn't put nearly the work that you put in and it's frustrating to not have the time or inspiration to RP and to usurp someone who's put in more effort than you have.

It's okay to be upset. It's okay to be upset and angry. It's even okay (though skirting the line a little) to be upset and angry and to write a furious post on the WCDT blaming the co-hosts, your opponents, the system and the teams in pot one for everything that's happened to you. It's not okay, however, to continue to escalate and escalate and escalate.

You have said your piece. Now it is time to move on. If the community wants to do something about this, we can't do it while you're shouting in our ears.

[Zwangzug]

You lot are the best community I've come across so far on NS, so it tears me apart to see us like this.

How about we discuss the best moments of the World Cup instead! Were their any standout contenders to you? Any hilarious RP's you want to remind us of? What has happened in this cycle that made you smile?
For me it was watching the young guns like Flavovespia and Timuria! They did incredibly well this cycle and stood out to me with their well-executed and engaging RPs right through the qualifiers and into the Cup of Harmony!

Cheers Brusseldorf! I really enjoy RPs where different users bounce off each other, so while I'll admit I wasn't following the Baker Park/Banija arc super closely, the amount of back and forth that went on there was very impressive (especially with Banija also caught up in hosting). The Holy Empire's "beach hunk calendar" was fun for me and hopefully several others to respond to, and I appreciate Sargossa taking CommentaryBot and running with it.

[Dreamplanet]

As Vilita pointed out: RPing is what you have to do to get into the CoH. Once you're in, you're not obliged to RP. Yes, it's much better if the invited nation RPs, in much the same way it's better when any nation RPs in any competition.

Then what's the point of trying? Again, it's like people don't want others to try their hardest and they sure as shit don't want to try at all if they're in the 1st pot, it's absolutely shambolic when you have a tournament with no desire and the ones that do have the desire to thrive get floundered by the bigwigs.

Besides that, I have to say I can empathize Dreamplanet's frustration. I've been on both sides. When you care too much about results, there will come a time when rand does some bullshit that you have to put up with.

That is certainly true

I cannot empathize with the outburst and the attempted public shaming of MNM, though, specially since he has ostensibly done nothing wrong beyond committing the crime of being busy.

I don't buy that as I have shown in [url]this[/url] post that he had been active on the days of the tournament, could've written anything and chose not to unlike Hinode that had been completely away from NS during that time, so that one was just taking the piss, you can call it public shaming but I'm just bringing attention to the fact that this is not right, him doing nothing and getting away with it shouldn't be excusable just cause he's Pot 1.

---

No one is turning a blind eye. No one has said "Everyone is happy they won, the system is working great and every cup should turn out just like this". All we've said is that you are on the wrong end of extreme because while results like this may not happen often, they are designed to be allowed to happen as the balance between RP/Rank/RANDOM exists. The results are the results. AFTER they are posted, we write about them. It happens that two nations who posted one larger RP instead of a number of smaller ones got into the Final, and one of them had to win at that point. It was MNM. Congratulate them and move on.

If you aren't turning a blind eye, tell me what's more important, results or player engagement? Results like this may not happen often but I've been on the end of them in the Campionato Esportiva and in the World Cup qualifiers, they may not happen often but they could start becoming the norm when Pot 1 teams stop caring and just coast to victory off of their rankings, the lower ranked nations never stood a chance.

And I think this is the root of the issue here. They weren't engaged in the thread in the way YOU wanted them to be, and you apparently weren't even engaged enough to notice [blah blah blah]

So one post is enough engagement in your eyes? One post is enough to justify a cup winning run. Just one? One will do, gotcha.
I was engaged on getting my group done yes but honestly I didn't even know he was in the tournament until I saw him in the Round of 16, he didn't necessarily walk the group either like Eastfield Lodge said, only getting past thanks to the 3rd placed teams rule.

For clarities sake, I never once mentioned Rank or Pot 1 in any of my posts here and the fact that MNM was in Pot 1, which I was not aware of, had absolutely no bearing on my responses nor does it change their validity.

But Eastfield Lodge did, he dropped the P1 bomb, and you imply that RP bonus is barely important, then why have RP threads at all? Why not just pump out results based on rankings? As I've said, you will have results and a champion, but you won't have an audience.

Thats a question you have to ask yourself. Many of us write Roleplays because we are building character arcs, stories, companies, nation building. Good results are just a bonus and they will come in time. If you are writing solely for the purpose of increasing your chance to win you will be upset for a very, very long time because even the best nations don't win every time. If you expected to be gifted a free tournament victory simply by posting more quantity then you were mistaken in how the scorination formulas work.

No, I never said that quantity will gift you a tournament but I never said that I should've won, I know that my roleplays are ultimately forgettable and I know I'm just doing what I can to get by because unfortunately this is my limit, but what does this mean for the nations that have limitless potential and they get consistently shafted by nations that just coast off their rankings point, that's not a good thing because effort should always be rewarded.

---

I think the key point I wanted to reiterate is that NS Sports is not a roleplaying competition, it is roleplaying about imaginary competitions.

It is entirely reasonable to be upset that the one thing that you can control, which is your own posting of RPs, does not translate into an expected outcome. I get what you're saying that the CoH seems like it should be a roleplaying competition. But it isn't, either. As others have said, it's a way to give people who RP more opportunity to RP. More imaginary competitions to write about. There is no obligation to do so, other than the social expectations you have very clearly expressed.

Well yes, I'm glad that we have established this, however nations that don't do anything (or next to nothing in this case) should never be awarded with a tournament win regardless of ranking, yes rankings are important but there's got to say

But it's also not true to say that RPing is not rewarded. I'm not being flippant in saying "try again next edition". You're going to move up the rankings and you'll have a better chance next time, because you have consistently RPed not just this cycle but the previous ones you've taken part in, and that also translates into rank. You can see rank as a form of solidified past-RP bonus. That said, just my own WC history as someone who was top 20 for a significant time might put things into perspective.

Dreamplanet, you seem like you are otherwise a very fine person, but I think you are angry right now and need to step away for 48 hours to clear your head, at least to the point you stop lashing out at people. I know I definitely say stuff I later regret when I'm upset, especially when I feel like I've been taken advantage of or victim of an injustice. It seems to me that's what you're doing here. This is a mistake.

I certainly know what I'm doing right now, it really is an injustice but trust me, this is no mistake on my part.
I could've lashed out at the end of the CE24 but I didn't because I knew that Kita-Hinode was genuinely busy. Hell, he even offered me his title but I refused because I was happy with 2nd already, I had no business being in that final.
I could've lashed out at failing to qualify for the World Cup but i didn't because it's never been kind to me.
This time, I have a genuine concern, I believe that there's an issue and nobody will change it if it doesn't harm them.

If you want something with no ranks, the Winter Olympics are coming up soon. If you don't know anything about those sports, it can be a chance to learn. It can be a writing challenge. Come up with a bunch of names and you'll more than likely have a medal or a few to write about.

I've been put off by the fact that I don't know pretty much anything about those sports, and even that Football is my native sport I don't know how to do anything better than newspaper clippings, I know those won't win me anything but I like them, I just feel that it's unfortunate that the nations that tried get eliminated by nations that did nothing.
just don't give me a hope of a medal

---

Before I start, 'next time' is a completely innocuous comment for most people. I understand that if you're a fan of, say, Spurs, Sporting, Liverpool or Feyenoord it might be annoying as hell, but it clearly wasn't meant to be a dig.

It is fair to say that I genuinely hate that phrase and never want to hear it, I know it wasn't a dig but it didn't sit well with me.

Dreamplanet, Most of us have gone through situations like this on one side or the other. It's frustrating to lose out to someone who didn't put nearly the work that you put in and it's frustrating to not have the time or inspiration to RP and to usurp someone who's put in more effort than you have.

It's okay to be upset. It's okay to be upset and angry. It's even okay (though skirting the line a little) to be upset and angry and to write a furious post on the WCDT blaming the co-hosts, your opponents, the system and the teams in pot one for everything that's happened to you. It's not okay, however, to continue to escalate and escalate and escalate.

While it is a common issue and upsets do happen, they usually never happen to this level, yes Free Republics mentioned an incredible fluke but still, this is starting to become a worrisome trend with Kita-Hinode and the more recent one winning with minimal effort, atleast I can understand Hinode's absence, the latter I simply cannot because he chose not to post in the thread but posted elsewhere.

You have said your piece. Now it is time to move on. If the community wants to do something about this, we can't do it while you're shouting in our ears.

In conclusion, I believe that something has to be changed to prevent nations to just coast off their ranking points as this can discourage new/rising users from even trying because just seeing stuff like this repeatedly happen to me and other more-deserving people is just frustrating, it's even more frustrating when other people make it seem like it's ok to coast off of your rankings and not try. I recognise that quality > quantity, but there has to be a certain balance, 1 massive RP shouldn't make you set for a title but neither should 50 one paragraph RPs.

[Liventia]

Please stop missing the point that no one should be forced to RP, nor made to feel bad they won something without RPing, and that NS Sports as a whole is here to provide us with opportunities to RP, instead of anything else.

Until you get that, this argument is going nowhere, and I doubt anyone would take your suggestions seriously as anything other than just angry reaction to a result you didn't like even though it had no direct impact on you.

[Dreamplanet]

Please stop missing the point that no one should be forced to RP, nor made to feel bad they won something without RPing, and that NS Sports as a whole is here to provide us with opportunities to RP, instead of anything else.

Until you get that, this argument is going nowhere, and I doubt anyone would take your suggestions seriously as anything other than just angry reaction to a result you didn't like even though it had no direct impact on you.

I was willing to let it go until I saw this. Holy fuck how can you say that I missed the point and yet go on to miss the point yourself.
Ok, first off, I have named 2 instances where idle nations have beaten me to the punch, and I'm saying this for the nations that were affected by this and deserved better (like Brusseldorf added on), the real winners here were the teams that actually tried their best to RP and got shafted by the system, I've already stated my concerns with the scorinators and issued a solution and I hope that over at the NSS Discord they're actually doing something useful to get shit done and maybe if it's not too much to ask, try to find a system that hits the sweet spot of balance while rewarding roleplayers, quality > quantity always but there has to be a balanced level of both quality and quantity, is it too much to ask for Pot 1 teams to RP throughout their matches instead of just once before the tournament and ride off into the sunset? Also don't bring the "he was busy" excuse because I debunked that multiple times as he posted various times in non-CoH (or even NSS related threads in general) IC threads.

Secondly, you saying that the argument got nowhere and just stating my reaction as an "angry reaction to a result you didn't like" even though I stated multiple times as to why this is cause for concern that higher ranked nations can just coast from their pot placements just makes it seem like you're either white knighting for someone else or just extremely butthurt because maybe this hits close to home for you, or maybe you're just clueless and wanted to snap at me for not knowing what you're talking about and being unable to read, this system pretty much ensures that competitions become impossible for smaller nations to progress, stopping upwards mobility, so until you get that, your post is going nowhere and will make you seem clueless (which you really are, proving that you read nothing) and I doubt anyone would take your post as anything other than an example as to why you shouldn't jump into arguments without knowing what you're even saying.

So here's my point to you, please stop missing the point that nations that do nothing shouldn't be awarded title reads and maybe use the opportunities to read by reading better instead of anything else, cheers.

[Starblaydia]

Posting this first section with my modhat firmly in place.

Dreamplanet: having already been unofficially warned by a Moderator about this barely three and a half hours ago, again you are going beyond the usual line of what we qualify as robust debate in this particular thread. I'll remind you that this is a PG-13 forum and the occasional f-bomb can be put up with, however the tone of your posts is reading, to me, as unnecessarily antagonistic given the collaborative nature of this particular bit of game-within-a-game that we have had going here for fifteen years. You may feel perfectly reasonable and calm, but you're not coming across as such.

---

Now, writing purely as a player, I think this is a misunderstanding of the relationship between Ranks, RP and Randomness in as far as they work with our various scorination formula. It has been shown time and again in both recent and long-past history that, with consistent participation of RPing, you have a much easier and swifter rise up the rankings. Over World Cup Qualifiers in particular, the ranking points that are gained from adding RP Bonus into the scorination mix definitely has an effect on results in the long term. In short, the players who have high ranks have only got them by RPing consistently and (probably) well, and they only keep their ranks in the long term by maintaining a certain level of RPing. The rise up the ranks, and the ability to stay there, does not just rest upon the RP bonus and some sort of inherent unmovable rank boost just from being in the club of higher-ranked nations, because Margaret is a fickle bitch who can pull the rug out from under you at any moment. Witness Valanora's two nations, one of whom will go from 20th to between 7th and 2nd (depending on the remaining results), while the other is dropping from 12th down into 30th, all based on a single cycle of the World Cup.

It is possible, and indeed likely, that individual nations get an outlandish run of results to make, or even win, a final. I nearly won WC63 thanks to outrageous fortune having not posted a roster or RPing until the Semi-Final, despite being ranked horrendously in the 60s or something. These individual bits of luck - good or bad - usually equal themselves out fairly soon after, and it's unfortunate that you've been at the wrong end of that twice. There is a definite glide when a nation stops RPing, and the results start to catch up to the fact that other nations are starting to out-RP and out-do them, as the chasing pack gets closer and the rivals move further ahead. It is not immediate, even in the space of a tournament, and nor should it be, because it's damned hard enough to get there in the first place and we can't all constantly be voracious RPers, churning out novella after novella each time the World Cup comes along.

RP Bonus is, usually, added on to your rank in small increments per matchday. Individually great RPs are unlikely to shake the foundations of the scorinator, but over long tournaments like Qualifiers, the boost can be very significant, particularly at the lower end of the table. RP bonus is, crucially, not the deciding factor in whether a nation wins or loses a match. There have been debates since both Ranks and RP Bonus were introduced as to how the balance should be best aligned - we're still here, so they can't be all that much out of whack. The World Cup was never designed to be, and has never been, a writing competition. RP Bonus was only ever intended to be a mild incentive to RP, and a way to reward those who do with slightly better results without guaranteeing anything. Personally, I've gone from terrible low ranks to exciting high ranks four separate times in the lifespan of the World Cup (15-83) and I know that RPing pays off, because when I do my rank meanders it's way up and when I don't it saunters its way back down again. Individual match results are still just a flip of a reasonably-weighted coin, and all sorts of random shit happens while it's in the air. Now repeat that a few dozen, or hundred, times and I think you'll find there's a pattern.

Everyone finds themselves at a point where they don't RP, whether for a tournament or some other period of time. We all get busy, we all have real life or other games that take precedent, we all suffer from burnout, lose our RPing muse, or just end up not writing anything for a while. Sometimes our nations win when we do that, sometimes they lose. Rank and Randomness decides that, and we have literally no control over it. It is not Main Nation Ministry's fault that the scorinator spit them out to win the whole thing, indeed most of the consistently-posting RPers were dropped out of the CoH by the knockouts anyway as part of a cruel twist of fate. You also seem to be under the impression that because the Cup of Harmony is an invitation-only tournament based on your roleplaying, that roleplaying really matters much more in this particular tournament. It doesn't. The Cup of Harmony is there because when players who are actively involved in the WCQs get knocked out, it's nice for them to have something to continue to RP with and not make World Cup Qualification the end of the journey.

For a better perspective, I'd recommend co-hosting - or even just personally simming for fun - a sports event that you're familiar with, and see what sort of effects that any RP bonus on the various ranks. Your top team will not always win, your bottom team will not always lose, and the RP bonus you give them each round may have an effect on the output, or it may not. At that point, when you've seen what happens and why, that's the time to open a discussion about how we balance the Three Rs, and if different scorination forumulae would be a positive thing in our subforum.

I hope that all makes sense, because I think this post is longer than my latest RP and covers way more important content.

[The Archregimancy]

We can have the third mod with a Sports background weigh in if we really want to.

But I'll assume for now that's not what we want, and that the interventions from Audio and Star suffice.

[Liventia]

you're either white knighting for someone else or just extremely butthurt because maybe this hits close to home for you, or maybe you're just clueless and wanted to snap at me for not knowing what you're talking about and being unable to read

1) I don't participate in WCC events these days.
2) I have hosted multiple World Cups and Olympic Games. Trust me that I know what I'm talking about.