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The World Cup Discussion Thread (OOC, Version IV)

A battle ground for the sportsmen and women of nations worldwide. [In character]

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Krytenia
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Postby Krytenia » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:56 am

Second WC86 bid.

(BTW, if anyone who isn't me wants to bid, go for it!)
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Hosts: Cup of Harmony VII, AOCAF I, Cup of Harmony XV, World Cup XXIV, AOCAF XIII, World Cup XXIX, AOCAF XVII, AOCAF XXIII, World Cup XL, Cup of Harmony XXXII, Baptism of Fire XXXII, AOCAF XXVII, Baptism of Fire XXXVI, World Cup L, Baptism of Fire XL, Cup of Harmony LXIV, AOCAF XLVIII, World Cup LXXV, AOCAF LX
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Busoga Islands
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Postby Busoga Islands » Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:54 am

I will be honest, and I'd appreciate discussion/clarification from KRY and others on the topic
.
It is extremely odd to me that we have one user(KRY).involved in multiple, competing bids for the same tournament.

Idk if this has ever happened before- I'll fully admit that I'm unaware if there's precedent here, and I do not believe it's against the WCC Constitution. I do think that having nations putting multiple bids for the same tournament, effectively competing against themselves, is not the best look. Which one does the nation in question even support?

Obviously I have all the respect in the world for KRY, even if I've inherited his semifinal luck. or maybe I'm being a square resistant to change. But I think it's reasonable to ask why you would throw a bid competing against yourself with two seperate bid partners, and how you can effectively advocate for both/either when they're your competition at the same time.

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Newmanistan
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Postby Newmanistan » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:32 am

There will be another bid coming probably today. Don't commit to your shade of sky blue yet. :)
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Sarzonia
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Postby Sarzonia » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:34 am

I don't know if there's precedent established or not, but I have a BIG problem with the idea of the same *user* being involved in two competing bids.

*If we're going to establish a new policy against this, I strongly recommend that we make clear that a user's puppet is not allowed to compete against a user's main in another bid.

I don't know if anyone else shares my or Busoga's concerns, but I see this as a problem.
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Free Republics
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Postby Free Republics » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:49 am

I don't know that we necessarily need to ban this when anybody who has an issue with it has the right to vote against both bids.
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NSWC Signups
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Postby NSWC Signups » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:05 am

With two bids submitted, World Cup 86 signups are now OPEN.
Last edited by NSWC Signups on Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Banija
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Postby Banija » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:22 am

I'll say for myself, I think a ban is unnecessary and overbearing... But I do think asking for an explanation of the "why" in this case is imminently reasonable.
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Twicetagram and JYPe
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Postby Twicetagram and JYPe » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:30 am

My view:
I understand Kry may not have bad intentions by having two bids under the same nation. However, it can give off a feeling that you want to host the World Cup, no matter which bid wins.

I feel that this may be unfair because now both bids have Krytenia involved one way or the other. Unless another bid without him/her joins, I may find it a tad unreasonable to have two bids.

I'm still fine with Krytenia hosting, it's the problem of the chances of him hosting that makes me a bit worried.
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Starblaydia
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Postby Starblaydia » Tue Jul 14, 2020 6:52 am

There's currently nothing in the constitution that says you can't bid more than once for the same thing. There was nothing in the consitution that said you couldn't bid for all three tournaments in a WCC cycle, either, but Kry and I did that for WC40 anyway. The Cyan One has form for this kind of thing. WCC members (anyone participating in WC84 and 85 and posting at least a roster) all have votes, and can easily vote against either of these options, with RON or it seems by picking a third, upcoming, Newmanistan-flavoured option.

The content of the bids, specifically in regard to RP Bonus, is the crucial bit, here, for me. Logo and text formatting notwithstanding, this does not appear to me to just be a copy/paste idea to try and get the hosting job under any circumstances:

KRY-DEL is fairly standard...

Krytenia wrote:How will RP bonus be calculated?
Will be set with a "floor", a minimum RP bonus for posting something of substance (as opposed to a single sentence or just stats with no prose content). We've calculated RP points for qualifiers as 14.5KPB at 80% of max; this means that we expect high-RPing teams to collect this many KPB points in RP over the course of qualifiers. It also means a "ceiling" of 18KPB total. Points available per MD will be 18/total number of MDs. Roster bonus will have a max of 3 KPB separate from this calculation. Roster bonus will carry over to the finals; RP bonus will not, as we will be using the post-qualification KPB ranks.


While KRY-LGL is much more unusual, and fairly true-to-form bearing in mind the other co-host...

Krytenia wrote:RP BONUS
The Kry-Legal bid for World Cup 86 recognizes that all things need balance. RP is encouraged, and we strive to reward quality RPs with bonuses that help improve your nation’s odds by adding to your rank. That said, the pressure to RP frequently is there for a number of reasons -- both to figure out where you stand in terms of a Cup of Harmony bid (if your qualifying run isn’t going so well) as well as to keep up with everyone else and give yourself a puncher’s chance against the big kids, so to speak. To help with the pressure, we’re planning to implement two measures for qualifying:

Public RP bonuses. Bonuses for each MD will be posted publicly, on a google sheet set up by the hosts, so that you know where you stand on each day.

The BAR. RP bonuses will be allocated using the BAR system.
What does BAR mean? Best, Average, Recent. Together, these three pieces plus the roster will be worth a possible total of 16 points. Each MD of RP will be scored on a 0-2 scale, as will the rosters, and applied as follows:
  • Best: The best MD of RP for your team will count for the entirety of qualifying. This will be worth up to 2 points, added to your pre-qualifying rank.
  • Average: The average of your RP days (that is, days in which you submit something), throwing out your best and worst score. This is doubled, and will be worth up to 4 points to your pre-qualifying rank. Kicks in with your third RP, since the best and worst are not counted.
  • Recent: The sum of the bonus from the last four MDs (for MD1-3, this would be just the days completed so far); this will add up to eight points to your rank.
What does this mean for you? A preference to quality over quantity, but with a recognition of effort.

ROSTERLESS PENALTY
Post-RP rankpoints are cut for any team that does not post a roster in the WC Roster thread after a grace period. This will be 10% for Matchdays 2 and 3, 25% for 4 and 5, and 50% for each matchday thereafter, based on MD1 being at least one week after the RP thread is opened. The only exception will be BoF teams that posted a roster in the BoF thread, but forget to add it to the WC thread as well, as these teams do at least have a roster available for the cycle.


The 'out there' bids with unusual, or untried mechanics, often crash and burn against a solid 'standard' bid from other nations, and by presenting both fairly standard and fairly out-there, I think Kry is making us ask ourselves a few questions:

  • Is it the cohosts or the bid format that's most important?
  • Is it worth trying something new with regards to RP Bonus?
Last edited by Starblaydia on Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Savojarna
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Postby Savojarna » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:18 am

In the light of this
NSWC Signups wrote:With two bids submitted, World Cup 86 signups are now OPEN.

I wonder if Kry may just have double-bid to get signups opening as quickly as possible ;)

On a more serious note, I think that indeed, there is no need to prevent double bidding, especially not when the bids are functionally different. I don't see any way in which this could be abused, as you'd still need to present a bid that has majority approval. If anything, it lowers Kry's chance of hosting, as pro-Krytenian votes could get split between bids.
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Legalese
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Postby Legalese » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:36 am

Hi! One of the two co-hosts of the double bidder here. I can't speak for Del, but I was aware that he had also reached out around the same time I did about hosting 86 with Kry, and have absolutely no problem with what Kry's doing here (I also did not know any details of their bid before it was posted). You'll see that both include one thing that Kry feels strongly about (The Plan, which I'm also a fan of), and as Star noted, each has their own flavor that makes sense knowing each of us. For me, it was looking at some of the results of the Kelssek survey and my own thinking on where things stand, and proposing implementing a few that I think could work. If you're a fan of a Krytenian hosted world cup, and can't choose, I'd encourage you to rank our bids 1-2.
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Audioslavia
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Postby Audioslavia » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:01 am

They're two very different bids. I've no problem with Kry being part of both of them. For anyone about to lay out a 'slippery slope' hypothetical what-if-one-user-doing-many-bids-but-too-much scenario, I'm also okay with that.

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Krytenia
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Postby Krytenia » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:34 am

Well, looks like I've stirred up some controversy here; I had a feeling this may happen.

When I made the call for a potential co-host after posting my ideas for speeding up the World Cup cycle, Legal and Del both contacted me almost simultaneously...this was the point at which I thought "I've got a few ideas here, why not both?"

There's no ulterior motive here, both co-bidders have been aware of the situation the whole way through, and I have absolutely no issues if I lose the vote. Hell, the fact I'm in both bids could actually hamper my chances.

What I do hope is that the bids encourage others to play it less safe in WC86 bidding. I have planted my flag(s); now is the time for others to do the same. (emphasis mine)

If anyone has further questions, TG me or hit me up on Discord if you're on the server.

BTW, I'm a little bit absolutely livid that signups are open, considering the first line of both the BAR and C&C bids.
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Delaclava
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Postby Delaclava » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:46 am

As the other “co-bidder” here, I also can confirm that I was informed about the existence of the other bid. I’d like to echo that I believe the presence of the two bids makes sense given the differences in scorinator and RP bonus system, with the two bids united by the common thread of scheduling and time frame. I am confident that Krytenia is fully committed to both bids, and will be fully committed to either bid that is eventually selected.

This also doesn’t prevent other bidders from entering - and it sounds like we will have at least one more entry - nor does it prevent voters from rejecting both bids if they feel they are not sufficient. But with two strong bids from a total of three experienced hosts, I don’t think you could go wrong with either option (although of course I have a preference ;) ).
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Zwangzug
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Postby Zwangzug » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:00 am

Thanks to Delaclava and Legalese for weighing in--if you guys are both cool with the unconventional bid structure, then I have no problems with it, and I appreciate you both putting forward thoughtful and capable bids.
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Graintfjall
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Postby Graintfjall » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:47 am

Just to loop back to Legalese's proposal for a moment...

At present is it the case that a player who has previously entered a World Cup can enter two nations into a World Cup even if they have not entered the previous World Cup, and that both of those nations could be nations that have not entered the World Cup previously? I'm setting aside the BoF question.

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Newmanistan
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Postby Newmanistan » Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:00 am

A third bid has arrived
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Postby The Sherpa Empire » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:12 am

I think it's refreshing to see Kry move things along like this instead of everyone just having the same debates over and over while nothing happens.
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Postby Free Republics » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:15 am

Graintfjall wrote:Just to loop back to Legalese's proposal for a moment...

At present is it the case that a player who has previously entered a World Cup can enter two nations into a World Cup even if they have not entered the previous World Cup, and that both of those nations could be nations that have not entered the World Cup previously? I'm setting aside the BoF question.


My understanding is that 1 of your nations must have entered a past World Cup (currently any World Cup from 1 to 85). You can't just enter 2 new nations into the World Cup at the same time.

The loophole is that you can enter 2 nations in the BoF if at least 1 of them previously went straight into the World Cup without a BoF and both were unranked. If somebody attempted to do this, however, the BoF host(s) could (and in my opinion should) use host discretion to require the removal of 1 or both nations.
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Legalese
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Postby Legalese » Tue Jul 14, 2020 11:21 am

Graintfjall wrote:Just to loop back to Legalese's proposal for a moment...

At present is it the case that a player who has previously entered a World Cup can enter two nations into a World Cup even if they have not entered the previous World Cup, and that both of those nations could be nations that have not entered the World Cup previously? I'm setting aside the BoF question.


Correct. Back when this discussion first came up, it seemed as if the general feeling was that this shouldn't be allowed (acknowledging that I did, in fact, do this for a short period last cup, signing up Novapsolu as a numbers puppet), so what I've proposed is to make that portion clear -- that is, saying "you, the player/user, can have two nations, provided one of them was entered in the previous cup."
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Graintfjall
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Postby Graintfjall » Tue Jul 14, 2020 12:34 pm

Thank you for clarifying things.

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Farfadillis
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Postby Farfadillis » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:25 pm

Very pleased to see four quality bids have been submitted (one proposing public RP bonus!) :)

The Sherpa Empire wrote:I think it's refreshing to see Kry move things along like this instead of everyone just having the same debates over and over while nothing happens.


Also, I'd like to echo this sentiment.

This whole thing has made me wonder, though: would it be legal if the same two users submitted two different bids, with entirely different formats? It strikes me as something that could be pretty cool to try out at some point down the line (giving the community more of a choice over the format, specially when there's only one bid).
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Commonwealth of Baker Park
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Postby Commonwealth of Baker Park » Tue Jul 14, 2020 7:36 pm

I admit I haven't looked at any of the bids yet, but more choices=better tourney.
I have no problem w/Kry being a part of two different bids (I thought maybe there'd been a change of co-host, but now I understand that they are separate).

I think we should focus on the content rather than the politics, at this point.

EDIT:

Krytenia wrote:

When I made the call for a potential co-host after posting my ideas for speeding up the World Cup cycle, Legal and Del both contacted me almost simultaneously...this was the point at which I thought "I've got a few ideas here, why not both?"

There's no ulterior motive here, both co-bidders have been aware of the situation the whole way through, and I have absolutely no issues if I lose the vote. Hell, the fact I'm in both bids could actually hamper my chances.


before I was involved in the WC84 bid, I had the intention of bidding for the BOF that cycle, and had reached out 3 different nations as co-hosts. As all of them expressed interest, I felt it was the correct thing to do to be upfront about the situation, and all three still were willing to be considered. Of course, in the end I had to back out, and felt guilty. I don't think anyone makes the decision to put a bid together with the idea that somehow it's a Top Secret agenda or that they would not act in good faith.

(unnecessary oration complete)
Last edited by Commonwealth of Baker Park on Tue Jul 14, 2020 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Blouman Empire
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Posts: 16147
Founded: Sep 05, 2007
Father Knows Best State

Postby Blouman Empire » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:11 pm

Starblaydia wrote: WCC members (anyone participating in WC83 and 84 and posting at least a roster) all have votes


Has the rules changed or is this just a typo? I thought it was participants in the last two world cups with a roster, not the two after the last one.
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