The World Cup Discussion Thread (OOC, Version IV)

[The Sherpa Empire]

If someone posts a match report before I get around to RPing, mentioning my goalscorers is a plus, but it's not something I feel strongly about.

[Valanora]

I'd also recommend Dormill ease up on the permissions, specifically Choose Goalscorers. It's going to be very difficult to RP matches against you in which you score without mentioning the goals, and with so little time between matches, it isn't practical to TG you and wait for reply

This goes as a general notice / recommendation to new users. With regards to the Choose Goalscorers permission, anything besides a blanket Y is going to be very limiting to other nations, even if that's not the intent. It's easy not to mention injuries or cards; not so much goals.

Honestly, that shouldn't even be an option anymore. I think it should be removed from the standard permissions box.

I would respectfully disagree, while it is not ideal, if someone is that adamant about controlling the narrative of *their* characters, it should be within their prerogative to do so.

[Unified Hispania]

It's pretty bad form when you don't mention players name while having the authorization to do so, although there's a solution for this in order to just dodge said restriction of not choosing a particular player, by just mentioning "A rival player scored at certain minute" while it can be really poor in terms of creativity and writing, it may be an effective alternate route for those who doesn't want to change it's position.

That was an alternative, it doesn't reflects my real view on it, although, I'm a supporter of Star and Darmen's stance in it.

On the range of choosing to not-choosing goalscorers, I'm at the end where I'd actually rather people chose mine first - I'm interested to know what outsiders think of my team, their write-ups, who sounds like good match-ups against their defenders, etc.

Very much so this. I actually get mad when others RP first and don't mention my goalscorers by name, especially since my RP Permissions don't prohibit them from doing so.

Aside from letting you now what's the image of the other nation about your team, it does create a friendlier RP environment that might enhance creativity, especially for a nation in BoF, by finding a path that might be more interesting than one expected for certain player, or might be RPed as a weird exception from a naturally bad player. Those were two chances on what you can go by forming an identity or building a character since the beginning, or being also a point of inflection that would impact your character for the upcoming WCQ, CoH, or wherever it happens.

[Semarland]

If someone posts a match report before I get around to RPing, mentioning my goalscorers is a plus, but it's not something I feel strongly about.

I would suppose if the other user were to mention your goalscorers in a match report before you could RP - you could always take it as an opportunity to RP that they misidentified the goalscorers or something - as long as you don't go against what they RPd for THEIR own team, then it shouldn't be a huge problem imho.

[Mytanija]

It's pretty bad form when you don't mention players name while having the authorization to do so, although there's a solution for this in order to just dodge said restriction of not choosing a particular player, by just mentioning "A rival player scored at certain minute" while it can be really poor in terms of creativity and writing, it may be an effective alternate route for those who doesn't want to change it's position.

I'm very much of the stance that the choosing goalscorers permission be removed. I don't believe it serves a worthwhile purpose and I think it could be off-putting for newer members of the sub-forum.

Having said that, one thing I'd like to note (and I'm sure experienced hosts already know), is that if somebody role-plays as Unified Hispania suggests, i.e. "A rival player scored at certain minute" - it is important to check their opponent's RP permissions box. If the opponent does not allow for their goalscorers being chosen, then what could be perceived as laziness in failing to name a goalscorer could actually be down to an opponent's restrictive RP permissions. This is of course crucial in fair attribution of RP bonus, nobody should be penalised because their opponent limits the permission to choose a goalscorer.

As Arch said, having a 'no' for the choosing goalscorers permission can encourage creative workarounds, but I'd argue that this is in fact not the case for many entry-level role-players who are perhaps coming into the NS Sport sub-forum for the first time and are unfamiliar with how things work. Scoring goals is an inherent part of football as a sport and goals define games, so being unable to choose goalscorers in order to RP a result seems especially limiting, particularly if said opponent is not even role-playing the tournament themselves. The most basic of sports role-plays are based on reporting results or demonstrating the feelings of the players as things happen/post-game (I'm thinking match reports or first person accounts from the players). Obviously these types of role-plays necessitate the most basic details from the games - one of which, quite clearly in football, is who scores the goals.

Furthermore, I don't buy that retaining this RP permission is the best way for people to control narratives about their players. I know that several people including myself usually feature a 'most likely to' section in their roster that deals with this sort of thing. Anyone who wishes for a certain player to score the majority of their goals can still do this without their opponent being especially limited by being unable to choose goalscorers - allowing more creative, detailed and immersive role-plays.

A 'yes' to choosing goalscorers is, in my opinion, something that encourages role-play more, from my personal experience it means I do more research and attempt to find more detail about characters in order to create - what I consider to be - a more realistic story. It encourages more collaborative role-plays and that's the entire basis of NS Sports, really.

[Eastfield Lodge]

It's pretty bad form when you don't mention players name while having the authorization to do so, although there's a solution for this in order to just dodge said restriction of not choosing a particular player, by just mentioning "A rival player scored at certain minute" while it can be really poor in terms of creativity and writing, it may be an effective alternate route for those who doesn't want to change it's position.

I dunno, if I was going to be properly anal about not allowing others to choose my goalscorers, I'd say that even doing that infringes on my permissions, because you've still selected who's playing and what time people are on the pitch, and therefore limiting my own choices about who scored.

[Bostopia]

Whose property are the characters in each RP written? Do they belong to the writer, another nation, Max Barry, or whomever hosts this forum based on the Ts and Cs? I would argue they belong to whoever created them. It would be rude to go around using other peoples characters without their permission.

Has anyone stopped to consider whether there could be stories weaved around who scored the goals? Gosh, the player someone else decides score could ruin an RP being written where the star striker/centre-half is injured just before the game! The make-or-break penalty miss that sends the captain down a path of depression?

Sure, it discourages writing RPs involving their players, but that is their loss. There are enough talented writers discussing this, let alone participating in the WC to be able to get around not naming a goalscorer. It'll be boring but we have to respect peoples choices within the current framework.

If opinions are this strong on the matter, I humbly suggest someone petition to vote on amending the RP box to ban 'choose my goalscorers' going forward and we'll see how well it goes.

[The Archregimancy]

... there are legitimate RP reasons why the no option on 'Choose Goalscorers' might be picked...

Can you please provide an example? I honestly cannot come up with any.

Internal RP reasons mean that you would prefer to see goals assigned / not assigned to a specific player or players in an individual match or matches. The possibilities are only limited by the imagination.

Some random examples I've come up with quickly...

Your nation is ruled by the oppressive and capricious dictator Il-Kung Sim, who only allows certain players to score during a match, but not necessarily the same player(s) each match; it depends on who holds the dictator's favour each match day - but no one can know in advance who this is going to be.

Your nation is controlled by a complex ritualistic caste system which impacts which caste is allowed to score on a particular day according to an unpredictable and possibly unrepeatable astronomical calculation.

You have a complicated interactive plot line with another nation involving members of your team turning out to be undercover agents / replaced by androids / infected by a bizarre alien virus, which impacts their ability to score - but you need to keep it an internal secret until the big reveal.

I fully agree that this shouldn't necessarily be common, but I think it's entirely legitimate if used judiciously.

I would respectfully disagree, while it is not ideal, if someone is that adamant about controlling the narrative of *their* characters, it should be within their prerogative to do so.

Precisely.

It's certainly not a prerogative we should arbitrarily remove.

[Farfadillis]

Can you please provide an example? I honestly cannot come up with any.

Internal RP reasons mean that you would prefer to see goals assigned / not assigned to a specific player or players in an individual match or matches. The possibilities are only limited by the imagination.

Some random examples I've come up with quickly...

Your nation is ruled by the oppressive and capricious dictator Il-Kung Sim, who only allows certain players to score during a match, but not necessarily the same player(s) each match; it depends on who holds the dictator's favour each match day - but no one can know in advance who this is going to be.

Your nation is controlled by a complex ritualistic caste system which impacts which caste is allowed to score on a particular day according to an unpredictable and possibly unrepeatable astronomical calculation.

You have a complicated interactive plot line with another nation involving members of your team turning out to be undercover agents / replaced by androids / infected by a bizarre alien virus, which impacts their ability to score - but you need to keep it an internal secret until the big reveal.

I fully agree that this shouldn't necessarily be common, but I think it's entirely legitimate if used judiciously.

Of the three you mentioned, only the last one actually needs to restrict the opponent when choosing goalscorers. It is a valid example, but I hope you don't take offense in my pointing out it is very contrived, and very far from anything we've seen on this forum in, at least, the last six years.

Still, taking into account that at some point in the future some user might just come up with a contrived idea like that one, I suppose a better proposal would be that not allowing your opponent to choose your goalscorers is only allowed with proper justification. The reality is that most cases are not properly justified. It's almost always new nations that don't allow others to choose their goalscorers, and it's almost always because they want to have exclusive control of their narrative, even if it makes no difference whatsoever to them. The truth is, however, that they don't have full control over their narrative anyway: the scorinator doesn't do what they want. This is fundamentally not a single-player game precisely because of that.

[Liventia]

It's not codified anywhere that it should or shouldn't be there, and it should be up to hosts whether or not to include it as a permission (or whether or not to enforce it). If it's that divisive an issue, ask about it when scrutinising host bids and people can make up their minds then.

Pretty simple, really; it needs no voting on despite what Bos suggests. You can't vote to remove something that isn't required to be there, although you can certainly vote on including something that isn't currently codified.

Has anyone stopped to consider whether there could be stories weaved around who scored the goals? Gosh, the player someone else decides score could ruin an RP being written where the star striker/centre-half is injured just before the game! The make-or-break penalty miss that sends the captain down a path of depression?

Then let's get rid of the rule that once your opponent RPs, you have to follow what they say. Basically what you're suggesting, isn't it? God forbid someone RPs something and it wasn't how you wanted the game to go.

[Unified Hispania]

It's pretty bad form when you don't mention players name while having the authorization to do so, although there's a solution for this in order to just dodge said restriction of not choosing a particular player, by just mentioning "A rival player scored at certain minute" while it can be really poor in terms of creativity and writing, it may be an effective alternate route for those who doesn't want to change it's position.

I dunno, if I was going to be properly anal about not allowing others to choose my goalscorers, I'd say that even doing that infringes on my permissions, because you've still selected who's playing and what time people are on the pitch, and therefore limiting my own choices about who scored.

Basically, it doesn't, since most rosters specify a Starting XI, you've got the pattern already, the violation to your permissions wouldn't be there, since you allowed to have eleven possibilities on scorers, writing what I posted above wouldn't inflict damage to your choice, since you gave the chance to have those possibilities, what I'm doing there is to respect those possibilities, although marking the obvious, only one of those eleven scored, but not saying explicitly who did it, just pointing out.

In case there's no a clearly marked XI on roster, checking in said tournament RPs in search of keys or an explicitly written XI would also respect your choice of not choosing, although, it limits into the terms of what you've allowed beforehand.

[Apox]

I’m not entirely sure that this issue is big enough to warrant this level of discussion.

I shall be changing my RP permissions to Mareibat’s current ones henceforth. “No deaths, no career threatening injuries. Other than that, go wild”

[The Sherpa Empire]

I’m not entirely sure that this issue is big enough to warrant this level of discussion.

I'm sure it's not, but everyone loves a good kerfuffle.

In practice it doesn't come up very often because most people just say yes to choose their goalscorers.

[Starblaydia]

I’m not entirely sure that this issue is big enough to warrant this level of discussion.

I'm sure it's not, but everyone loves a good kerfuffle.

This has, all in all, been a rather pleasant debate, I'd thought, by NS Sports standards.

[Nephara]

I think there's two arguments here. Whether or not we choose to ban 'removing the Choose Goalscorers permission', I think we all agree it's one of those things that can theoretically be used artfully (I remember Shytysle's sole permission was that all of his goals had to be scored by an otherwise ordinary penguin, because Paradystopia was wild like that). Where I feel strongly is the fact that it should be removed from the default Permissions box.

Choose Goalscorers is like any other weird permission that might be specific to a nation, like THE's Dreamed Realm rules or 'I have one player which is a giant tree' (Para again. God, I miss him). If your nation or your plot or something needs Choose Goalscorers remove, it's a special permission. Put it as an extra thing. But it shouldn't be in the default set of permissions which we accept can be switched off without explanation.

If you need your goalscorers to be a certain way just for the sake of your narrative, the only way to guarantee it is the only way to guarantee anything but the result in a match report; RP before the other guy.

[South Covello]

It's worth noting that even when the vast majority of one's goals are scored by a certain player, sometimes having another player score that goal can drive a storyline along. For instance, back when Associated Godlands was here (aka San Llera) he had most of his goals scored by Jesus Christ, presumably due to the fact that he was allegedly God, so I responded by marking him with eight players for the duration of the match so he couldn't go anywhere. However, Barack Obama did score a goal for him and proceeded to bow to Mecca, thereby revealing him as the secret Muslim on the team (which was already known to everyone OOC-ly, but not IC-ly) and setting off a whole storyline. Which San Llera/Associated Godlands was totally OK with. Now, if there's somehow something more weird than that, go for it, but it shouldn't be a default permission.

I think the comparison to the Dreamed Realm weirdness is a good one - it's fine with a good explanation as an additional thing, but I think we all agree "Make My Home Games Exist Outside the Fabric of Space and Time Plus Other Fantastic Weirdness" shouldn't be a thing that can be turned on without explanation. But hey, ridiculous weirdness is good. If all your goals need to be scored by a random penguin, then just say so and I'd imagine that would create a bunch of interesting RP opportunities for your opponent if they RP first. But simply turning it on with no explanation stifles RP for no good reason.

[Alenburg]

i think that was the worst i could ever done RP before and participated on other tourtamemts(moslty A Football) and on those tourtaments the matches never took place at the host stadium lol though this was the same lol if there is a forfeit by Farfadillis i will accept it

[The Archregimancy]

I’m not entirely sure that this issue is big enough to warrant this level of discussion.

I don't either, really.

Tempest in a teacup; and not a particularly big tempest, either. It's a symptom of us being between World Cups - and after a RL World Cup; minor issues suddenly seem terribly important.

Getting to the nub of the issue, if people want to assert control over their own characters, they should be able to. It's not particularly in the spirit of the NS World Cup, but I don't think we should stop them from doing so if they really want to just because some people find it mildly inconvenient.

There are plenty of ways of RPing around the issue with a bit of goodwill and imagination. It's never bothered me on those occasions when it does come up.

[Rannoria]

Hey guys, sorry for asking a dumb question, but what constitutes as a "goalscoring event". I didn't give it much thought earlier, but now I'm typing a post. My opponent Oscioru said "no" to this permission, so does that mean that I can't choose how he scores, how I score, or is there more?

Again, sorry for the stupid question. I just want this clarified so i don't screw up in the actual WC

[Union of Socialist Alpine Republics]

Hey guys, sorry for asking a dumb question, but what constitutes as a "goalscoring event". I didn't give it much thought earlier, but now I'm typing a post. My opponent Oscioru said "no" to this permission, so does that mean that I can't choose how he scores, how I score, or is there more?

Again, sorry for the stupid question. I just want this clarified so i don't screw up in the actual WC

From his roster:

I Give My Opponent Permission To:
=================================
Choose My Goalscorers: Y
Godmod Goalscoring Events: N

You can choose his goalscorers because he said yes.

"Godmod Goalscoring Events" means describing unusual goals, which is godmodding. For example "the player kicks the ball it bounces on the referree's head and goes into the net". Or "the goalkeeper kicks the ball and the ball hits a bird and falls in the opposite goal" That's godmodding and he said no to it. So you need to describe normal goals only.

[Rannoria]

Hey guys, sorry for asking a dumb question, but what constitutes as a "goalscoring event". I didn't give it much thought earlier, but now I'm typing a post. My opponent Oscioru said "no" to this permission, so does that mean that I can't choose how he scores, how I score, or is there more?

Again, sorry for the stupid question. I just want this clarified so i don't screw up in the actual WC

From his roster:

I Give My Opponent Permission To:
=================================
Choose My Goalscorers: Y
Godmod Goalscoring Events: N

You can choose his goalscorers because he said yes.

"Godmod Goalscoring Events" means describing unusual goals, which is godmodding. For example "the player kicks the ball it bounces on the referree's head and goes into the net". Or "the goalkeeper kicks the ball and the ball hits a bird and falls in the opposite goal" That's godmodding and he said no to it. So you need to describe normal goals only.

Oh alright thanks.

[The Archregimancy]

"Godmod Goalscoring Events" means describing unusual goals, which is godmodding. For example "the player kicks the ball it bounces on the referree's head and goes into the net". Or "the goalkeeper kicks the ball and the ball hits a bird and falls in the opposite goal" That's godmodding and he said no to it. So you need to describe normal goals only.

Are those both godmodding?

The first strikes me as a somewhat unusual but hardly unprecedented goal.

The second is a bit more of a matter of personal taste, perhaps.

There are different perspectives on these things, of course, but if 'anthropomorphic bunny eats buttercups and goes on resulting drugged-up goalscoring rampage' doesn't count as godmodding within its own context, then it suggests that much counts on the nature of the teams playing. What counts as godmodding for one match might not count for another; the lines aren't always cut and dried, and there's some scope for subjectivity.

If in doubt, perhaps ask your opponent.

[Rannoria]

"Godmod Goalscoring Events" means describing unusual goals, which is godmodding. For example "the player kicks the ball it bounces on the referree's head and goes into the net". Or "the goalkeeper kicks the ball and the ball hits a bird and falls in the opposite goal" That's godmodding and he said no to it. So you need to describe normal goals only.

Are those both godmodding?

The first strikes me as a somewhat unusual but hardly unprecedented goal.

The second is a bit more of a matter of personal taste, perhaps.

There are different perspectives on these things, of course, but if 'anthropomorphic bunny eats buttercups and goes on resulting drugged-up goalscoring rampage' doesn't count as godmodding within its own context, then it suggests that much counts on the nature of the teams playing. What counts as godmodding for one match might not count for another; the lines aren't always cut and dried, and there's some scope for subjectivity.

If in doubt, perhaps ask your opponent.

Alright, thanks for this tip as well.

Oscioru hasn't posted anything asides his roster yet, so I think I should be fine. I'll ask though if I hit group stage since I lucked out and got two non-roster nations.

[Farfadillis]

Baptism of Fire Host Announcement:

Semarland will be grading and scorinating my half tomorrow. Things will go back to normal after that.

[Bears Armed]

"Godmod Goalscoring Events" means describing unusual goals, which is godmodding. For example "the player kicks the ball it bounces on the referree's head and goes into the net". Or "the goalkeeper kicks the ball and the ball hits a bird and falls in the opposite goal" That's godmodding and he said no to it. So you need to describe normal goals only.

Are those both godmodding?

The first strikes me as a somewhat unusual but hardly unprecedented goal.

The second is a bit more of a matter of personal taste, perhaps.

There are different perspectives on these things, of course, but if 'anthropomorphic bunny eats buttercups and goes on resulting drugged-up goalscoring rampage' doesn't count as godmodding within its own context, then it suggests that much counts on the nature of the teams playing. What counts as godmodding for one match might not count for another; the lines aren't always cut and dried, and there's some scope for subjectivity.

If in doubt, perhaps ask your opponent.

The described frequency of such events might also be a factor. For example: If somebody tries to RP that all of their opponents' goals occur through such flukes, rather than due to skill on the opposing teams' part, then I'd say that their opponents would have valid clause for complaint.

(Yes, I am still following this thread even though no longer [for now, at least] participating in the Cups...)