The World Cup Discussion Thread (OOC, version III)

[Vilita]

Just to follow up on that, I'm only about 1/4th of the way through my RP currently for the World Cup, and currently attempting to get a UICA Season in before the deadline will take precedence.


Besides, after waiting 9 years, 2 months and 15 days for the chance to write another one of these things, whats another week or so?

[Farfadillis]

Just to follow up on that, I'm only about 1/4th of the way through my RP currently for the World Cup, and currently attempting to get a UICA Season in before the deadline will take precedence.


Besides, after waiting 9 years, 2 months and 15 days for the chance to write another one of these things, whats another week or so?

I can see you're kind of happy about winning the World Cup.

[Barunia]

Cup of Harmony winning (or in this case 'refusing') RP finally up; apologies for the delay - my recent NS Sports time was largely spent working as a mod on the Rugby League puppet controversy.

I'm adding a link here since others may conceivably want to refer to my IC'ly refusing to accept the trophy (and melting it down into 30 pieces of silver) in the next Cup of Harmony: viewtopic.php?p=19949215#p19949215

I stress that this is an IC refusal only. No RL slur is intended on either the hosts or my fellow WCC members; for the record, I rather enjoyed the Cup of Harmony this time around - more so than I enjoyed the World Cup proper.

And naturally I expect that a new trophy will be available in time for CoH 61.

After reading this, I was expecting more 'outrage'. That seemed rather mild by recent standards.

[Starblaydia]

58 entrants for the DBC means 26 pieces of gelatinous chaff have to be separated from the 32 gloriously noble kernels of wheat. Details on that later.

[Jeckland]

58 entrants for the DBC means 26 pieces of gelatinous chaff have to be separated from the 32 gloriously noble kernels of wheat. Details on that later.

You can toss out my puppet if it helps.

[Legalese]

All right, I'm back, and ready to answer things:

Oddly enough, were I to re-write the formula now (something which I had no serious intention of doing any time soon), I would probably have gone down a similar path to that which Legalese has. Indeed, the last time I returned, I had an intention of making an excel-based football scorinator that would allow the user to alter both of these factors to any limits that they wished to increase/decrease goals/random. Fancy calling this the SLIS formula? (Qutar didn't really have much input on it, IIRC, just had a copy for all the times I was away.).

Works for me. SLIS is just SQIS with modified constants, after all.

Why would one adapt the scorinator to result in more goals?

Admittedly, the numbers on this were a tad higher in qualifying than I expected. My theory is that the overall performance against really weak teams helped push the increase higher than expected. That said, the numbers for the Finals themselves looked pretty normal to me, and I'm not exactly concerned about a modest increase in qualifying - it's probably closer to what might happen if you had teams whose NTs consist of virtually the entire population of footballers being drawn against a group that includes a series of powerhouses and other reliable contenders.

That said, if I were to do anything, I might propose varying style mods in a way to make the defensive ones more powerful - as in, a +3 max for offensive to a -5 for defensive. But that would require a whole other discussion on those vile things anyways, so I'll leave it at that for now ;-)

But if the formula is supposed to make results less random, how come they seem to have been perceived as being more random? The basic mathematics and tests suggest that this should not be the case.

This would be the RP bonus, definitely. While the point values were relatively normal in comparison - the max bonus, which nobody reached, was a reasonable 1-2 KPB per day - the ramp-up, a feature I derived during the WC67 bid - allowed teams to potentially reach it by midway. This, combined with random, is probably why the results may have played a factor in why certain sides didn't like this cup so much, and other surprising results happened.

I also feel that it's worth noting that a single scorination in qualifying this time around resulted in 192 teams each making 12 attacks, meaning that xkoranate was generating over 2,000 random numbers between 0 and 1. With that many numbers going around, it doesn't surprise me that there was the potential for them to come up in sequences that would lead to outcomes one would not expect - which was also exactly why we implemented the Percival Playoff System to put more teams into the mix near the end, as it would help balance out some of the flukes from the group draw and the actual results, but still reward teams who performed well in the group stage of qualis.

[Vilita]

Since there is a bit of a lull in the discussion i figured I'd spice it up with something that could be borderline controversial - but maybe not. Without all the bells and whistles that go with it, this is a thought that had been kicked around in this day in age of approaching 200+ Signups for the World Cup, always struggling to get CoH Bids on time, etc.. etc..

:: The Vilitan Plan for a 4-host World Cup System

Instead of the traditional 2-host bid for a World Cup Finals, where one host takes one half of qualifying, and the other takes a second half of qualifying, The Vilitan Plan calls for a 4-host system. In this system, 2 hosts, preferably a senior and a junior host, take one half of the qualifying groups and divides the matchdays between them. 2 additional hosts, preferably a senior and a junior host, take the other half of the qualifying groups and do the same.

At the conclusion of qualifying, 2 hosts, as proposed in the original bid, move on to host the World Cup Finals. This would either be the 2 senior hosts, or, 1 Senior and 1 Junior host. The Other 2 hosts, concurrently, move on to host the Cup of Harmony.

The intent of this structure is to:
[*] Reduce the overall burden on individual hosts during the qualifying campaign
[*] Increase the amount of potential hosts by allowing junior hosts to gain experience hosting the (more grueling) aspect of World Cup Qualifying without having to commit to hosting the World Cup Finals
[*] Increase the amount of experience allotted to Cup of Harmony hosts
[*] Remove any uncertainty about the status of the Cup of Harmony bids as the end of qualifying approaches
[*] Provide a more seamless transition between the WCQ and CoH (Those that graded in part the WCQ RP will also be those that send CoH Invitations)
[*] Give the opportunity for a more intimate RP setting if potential hosts opt to split the RP thread along the hosting lines
[*] Allow a WCF host to enter a WCQ puppet without being forced to scorinate or judge and match or RP related to that puppets matches or group matches

How Would Such a Host Bid Look?
WCQ: 4 hosts split into 2 pairs. 1 from each pair scorinates on each matchday.
WCF: 2 hosts, 1 from each WCQ pair
COH: 2 hosts, 1 from each WCQ pair

WCC Constitutional Note:
:: No Constitutional changes are required to have 4-hosts scorinate during the WCQ, or for the 4-host "World Cup Cycle Hosting Team" plan proposed.
:: By voting for a host using this system in the World Cup Host vote, it could at the discretion of the acting President, preclude the need for having an additional CoH vote during the WCQ. Otherwise, a vote of validation could be held if no contesting bids formulate.

I could put forth an example host bid but I don't want to force too much of how I personally think a bid using this format would work. There are still many things that the hosts can decide on their own that could make such a bid more or less preferential to different parties. My big assumption is that nothing in the World Cup Finals is affected by this system. Really, the only thing that changes is that the CoH hosts are elected at the same time as the WCQ hosts, and, as such, they are available to assist in scorination during WCQ.

I welcome any feedback, suggestions or discussion. And, I welcome anyone to use this outline/structure in consideration of putting together a 'Hosting Team' for future World Cup cycles. I'm not in any way trying to exclusively lay claim to this format nor am i at this time trying to recruit 3 other hosts to put together a World Cup 69 bid (Though that doesn't mean I wouldn't listen to offers from other teams). If people are confused who want more clarification, I can at a later time post my thoughts of what a sample host bid using this structure would look like. But I'd like to leave some room for creativity first without throwing out a blueprint.

Here is what a sample bid might look like, in very simplistic form:

A Bid for the World Cup 99 Cycle Host Team

VILOV::99
VILITA & LOVISA :: WORLD CUP 99

SPYTT::83
SPAAM & YTTRIBIA :: CUP OF HARMONY 83

Scorination:
The hosts will be using xkoranate with the SQIS and style mods for all scorination. Scorination would take place daily with each team playing each other once, before a mid-qual day off, returning with each team playing each other once more at the home of the team that was away during the first half of qualification.

RP Bonus:
RP bonus will be two fold. Each user will have the roster rated from 1-5. This will count towards the RP Bonus but not as an "RP". Each user that RP's in the RP Thread will also receive a 'flat' RP Bonus that will remain active for the duration of the cup (A small boost to any RPer over any non-RPer). RP Frequency and quality will then be determined throughout the tournament by the formula put into the xkoranate that has been used for multiple host tournaments in the past.

Format:
202 Nations Accepted :: 200 Nations will compete in 20 groups of 10; +2 WCF hosts

Qualifying:
Vilita & Yttribia will scorinate groups 1-10
Spaam & Lovisa will scorinate groups 11-20

The top team in each group will advance directly to the World Cup Finals. (20 Teams) Second placed teams will be drawn against each other and the 10 winners will also advance. (10 Teams) The two hosts of the World Cup Finals (Vilita & Lovisa) will occupy the 2 remaining spots and will not compete in WCQ.

Note:
Vilita's puppet Turori as well as Yttribia and its puppet will compete in qualifying groups 11-20.
Spaam & New Spaam will compete in qualifying Groups 1-10


Finals:
The finals will be contested in a traditional 32 team format with 8 groups of 4 split into two regions to be hosted by Vilita (A-D) and Lovisa (E-H).

Cup of Harmony:
The Cup of Harmony will be contested in a traditional 32 team format with 8 groups of 4 split into two regions to be hosted by Spaam (A-D) and Yttribia (E-H). Invitations will be sent by the CoH hosts over the final few matchdays of qualifying and final invitations after the playoffs have concluded. If Spaam/Yttribia do not qualify for the WCF, they will be placed in opposite regions of the Cup of Harmony draw from that which they are scorinating.

Tie-breakers:
1) Head to Head Points
2) Head to Head Goal Difference
3) Goal Difference
4) Wins
5) Goals Scored

[Bears Armed]

Would the 2 hosts who renounced their right to qualify for that World Cup, and went to run the CoH instead, have their KPB Point levels adjusted in some way to compensate for the fact that they were missing that cycle's play completely and would therefore {if there was no adjustment] suffer an automatic drop in points?

[Vilita]

Would the 2 hosts who renounced their right to qualify for that World Cup, and went to run the CoH instead, have their KPB Point levels adjusted in some way to compensate for the fact that they were missing that cycle's play completely and would therefore {if there was no adjustment] suffer an automatic drop in points?

No one is renouncing their right to qualify for the World Cup.

The two hosts who were not hosting the world cup, would compete in qualifying just like any other nation. They would simply compete in the half of qualifying hosted by the opposite pair, just as a puppet of the WCF host would do in their attempt to qualify...

[Greater Watford]

This may possibly be a stupid question, so apologies if it is, but which hosts compete in WC Qualifying? Also, can a team host the Cup of Harmony, if they don't compete in it?

[Vilita]

This may possibly be a stupid question, so apologies if it is, but which hosts compete in WC Qualifying? Also, can a team host the Cup of Harmony, if they don't compete in it?

Yes, Cup of Harmony hosts regularly do not compete in the tournament itself. If they qualify for the finals instead, their place in the CoH simply goes to the next deserving team on the invitees list.

Only the hosts of the World Cup Finals do not compete in WC Qualifying (this is true for any World Cup). It is primarily rooted for In-Character Purposes (Just as in real life, the elected host of the World Cup Finals automatically qualify for the World Cup that are being held (IC or IRL) in the stadiums of that nation, and do not compete in qualifying, as they do not need to qualify*)

It also has some load-reducing effect, allowing the host to focus on scorination rather than RP. However, as it is now normal and almost a given for a World Cup host have a puppet entered in qualifying anyway, this is not seen as a restricting factor.


* IRL South Africa competed in WCQ because it doubled as the African Nations quals, but that isn't a situation that exists on NS

[Boring Paradise]

-SNIP-
Format:
202 Nations Accepted :: 200 Nations will compete in 20 groups of 10; +2 WCF hosts
-SNIP-

Correct if I am wrong, which I probably will be, how would you actually decide which two World Cup Hosts would host Finals. Thinking that it should be decided before qualifying. Then you have the two hosts auto-qualified and then the other two would go into the qualifying?

[Vilita]

-SNIP-
Format:
202 Nations Accepted :: 200 Nations will compete in 20 groups of 10; +2 WCF hosts
-SNIP-

Correct if I am wrong, which I probably will be, how would you actually decide which two World Cup Hosts would host Finals. Thinking that it should be decided before qualifying. Then you have the two hosts auto-qualified and then the other two would go into the qualifying?

Correct. The potential hosts would identify that as part of their bid, obviously. There are still only 2 hosts of the finals, and those would, in my opinion, be the only two who would be allowed to auto-qualify to the finals.

Theres nothing preventing a host bid from proposing something differently, as has been done in the past (Usually with a host saying they will forgoe their auto-qual) - but I would not recommend it

[Glaser]

Correct. The potential hosts would identify that as part of their bid, obviously. There are still only 2 hosts of the finals, and those would, in my opinion, be the only two who would be allowed to auto-qualify to the finals.

Theres nothing preventing a host bid from proposing something differently, as has been done in the past (Usually with a host saying they will forgoe their auto-qual) - but I would not recommend it

Won't it make one pair of hosts more inferior to the other pair? I mean its quite fair that one pair scorinates the world cup finals and one pair scorinates the CoH, but to have one pair go up automatically and one not to is quite weird. That makes the pair destined to host the CoH just "helpers", not real hosts of the world cup qualifiers. And 4 nations qualifying automatically is a bit to much. I like the idea but it's quite confusing and weird.

[Karditan]

Won't it make one pair of hosts more inferior to the other pair? I mean its quite fair that one pair scorinates the world cup finals and one pair scorinates the CoH, but to have one pair go up automatically and one not to is quite weird. That makes the pair destined to host the CoH just "helpers", not real hosts of the world cup qualifiers. And 4 nations qualifying automatically is a bit to much. I like the idea but it's quite confusing and weird.

Well, yes, they are inferior. The Cup of Harmony is inferior to the World Cup by definition, and by extension, their hosts are for the duration of the competitions. They are helpers--the point of the four-way bid is to reduce stress for the World Cup hosts, but in the end, the other pair are just the Cup of Harmony hosts--they're just offering to help take some of the burden off. If the CoH hosts aren't okay with doing 1/4 of the qualifying work each without auto-qualing, then they don't do a 4-way bid and just put up a straight CoH bid.

[Mytannion]

Right, think this is best put simply and to the point really.

I'm going to have a break from NS, I'm not sure how long or short that will be and whilst I won't be missed as much as the likes of ASMV and Wight (as I've simply never had as big an impact), I sure will miss some of the fun I have had on here just as much as they probably have.

Good luck to everybody in future competition and endeavours, I'll likely see some of you on IRC from time to time but I don't have time for NS anymore with simply too much going on. Thanks all!

[San Jose Guayabal]

Right, think this is best put simply and to the point really.

I'm going to have a break from NS, I'm not sure how long or short that will be and whilst I won't be missed as much as the likes of ASMV and Wight (as I've simply never had as big an impact), I sure will miss some of the fun I have had on here just as much as they probably have.

Good luck to everybody in future competition and endeavours, I'll likely see some of you on IRC from time to time but I don't have time for NS anymore with simply too much going on. Thanks all!

Well, good bye buddy and good luck, you'll be missed.

[Super-Llamaland]

Right, think this is best put simply and to the point really.

I'm going to have a break from NS, I'm not sure how long or short that will be and whilst I won't be missed as much as the likes of ASMV and Wight (as I've simply never had as big an impact), I sure will miss some of the fun I have had on here just as much as they probably have.

Good luck to everybody in future competition and endeavours, I'll likely see some of you on IRC from time to time but I don't have time for NS anymore with simply too much going on. Thanks all!

Don't worry, you will be missed. Good luck towards the future, it was fun having you.

[German American States]

Right, think this is best put simply and to the point really.

I'm going to have a break from NS, I'm not sure how long or short that will be and whilst I won't be missed as much as the likes of ASMV and Wight (as I've simply never had as big an impact), I sure will miss some of the fun I have had on here just as much as they probably have.

Good luck to everybody in future competition and endeavours, I'll likely see some of you on IRC from time to time but I don't have time for NS anymore with simply too much going on. Thanks all!

You will be missed Myt. Hope you will come on IRC sometime.

[Northern Sunrise Islands]

Right, think this is best put simply and to the point really.

I'm going to have a break from NS, I'm not sure how long or short that will be and whilst I won't be missed as much as the likes of ASMV and Wight (as I've simply never had as big an impact), I sure will miss some of the fun I have had on here just as much as they probably have.

Good luck to everybody in future competition and endeavours, I'll likely see some of you on IRC from time to time but I don't have time for NS anymore with simply too much going on. Thanks all!

Oh, you will be missed. And missed a lot. You were always a nice guy to have around and will surely be missed. Hope you come back one day.

[Apox]

Right, think this is best put simply and to the point really.

I'm going to have a break from NS, I'm not sure how long or short that will be and whilst I won't be missed as much as the likes of ASMV and Wight (as I've simply never had as big an impact), I sure will miss some of the fun I have had on here just as much as they probably have.

Good luck to everybody in future competition and endeavours, I'll likely see some of you on IRC from time to time but I don't have time for NS anymore with simply too much going on. Thanks all!

Well, shit. You'll be missed buddy, hope you return one day.

[Jeckland]

Right, think this is best put simply and to the point really.

I'm going to have a break from NS, I'm not sure how long or short that will be and whilst I won't be missed as much as the likes of ASMV and Wight (as I've simply never had as big an impact), I sure will miss some of the fun I have had on here just as much as they probably have.

Good luck to everybody in future competition and endeavours, I'll likely see some of you on IRC from time to time but I don't have time for NS anymore with simply too much going on. Thanks all!

Thanks for being around, wish you luck and hope to see you soon.

[Legalese]

A shame, Myt. Enjoy your time away - light's on here, as usual

As half of the team responsible for hosting a 192-team (plus hosts) World Cup, I am wholeheartedly in support of the Vilitian Plan, and would support any bid that takes a good shot at it. It has the benefit of providing World Cup hosting experience to more individuals, reduces the workload of the hosts, and increases their level of sanity - something that after this last cycle, is something I can quite appreciate. Hell, I'd offer myself as a CoH host candidate this time around, if that's what it takes for it to happen*. I do think that having the non-Finals hosting partners take on the CoH is a decent compensation, in the sense that it gives them something on the resume as well for their own future finals bid, and depending on how you interpret the host-repeat rule, could even put them in the running to run the show the following cycle, even.

The one hitch mentioned - how to deal with the CoH - is one where it might be worth remembering that the WCC Pres can set the CoH vote at any time he/she wishes (within obvious reason). As such, if a four-host bid of this nature wished to take a shot at it, but made the bid contingent on getting the CoH as well (considering this isn't exactly a "SuperBid" scenario where the hosts are proposing double-duty), then that seems like a risk the hosting team should be willing to take, and something that the voters would consider.

So basically, if someone were to try this for the next cycle, they'd be at the mercy of PIS and the voters - which is, well, normal anyways.

*Not that serious of an offer, mind. I'd be happy to have the cycle off.

[Farfadillis]

Right, think this is best put simply and to the point really.

I'm going to have a break from NS, I'm not sure how long or short that will be and whilst I won't be missed as much as the likes of ASMV and Wight (as I've simply never had as big an impact), I sure will miss some of the fun I have had on here just as much as they probably have.

Good luck to everybody in future competition and endeavours, I'll likely see some of you on IRC from time to time but I don't have time for NS anymore with simply too much going on. Thanks all!

Well, fuck. Guess my suspicions were right. You'll be missed. :/

[Vaugania]

I hope to see you come back some time, Myt. Good luck to you!